Localized Fat Loss & Transdermal Gel Questions

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    Localized Fat Loss & Transdermal Gel Questions


    Hello Everyone,

    Even though I do not post much, I read this forum all of the time and have some great experience with supplement/nutrition/bodybuilding. But there is one area where I have questions on which maybe some of you could help me with. So when I got out of high school, I went from 190 lbs 12%bf, to 257 lbs 3094049% bf...I am 5'9" by the way. From school, slower metabolism and lazy etc, I got fat.

    I slowly lost it after I got my **** together and changed my lifestyle. I have been stable with my diet and workout plan for 7 years now.

    I am 197 lbs, 12-13%bf..I have the 2 upper sets of abs but not the lower. HOWEVER...due to my previous weight gain, I have abnormally large love handles for my level of leaness...they are not HUGE but they are bigger than they should be...disproportionate....THEY DRIVE ME MOFO NUTS...

    So I am interested in trying the spot fat loss technique, using a transdermal...

    Here are some questions...

    1) Do they work? NO BS...like do they REALLY work or not...sort of is not an answer. Please answer if you have actually used one and had success or NO success.


    2) What is a good mix for a transdermal? I have clen/t3 at home but clen makes me feel weird.. I also have ECA at home, and a bunch of other crap..and willing to buy whatever..as long as it has some legitamate ingredients, and good user reviews.


    3) What kind of results should I expect to see?


    4) I have also consider getting lipo in just that area, but want to try this first...with lipo, you're removing actual fat cells...so if I accumulate fat, it will most likely go elsewhere, with the transdermals, if you stop using and keep diet the same, will it go back to those areas? I am assuming yes

    Thanks for the help,
    -Peter

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    In for an answer as well :-)
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    I know that there are a few supplements that advertise that it does work...but...every time I talk to a doctor or an exercise science major (like my fiance), there is a strong understanding that fat loss is not and cannot be localized.

    However, I have 2 inputs on this:

    1) With the area you are particularly talking about, it's almost unimagineable how we as men can be ripped up every where else BUT the mid section..strange, I know. But I've come to the conclusion that it is not because of the fat localizing to that part of the body but because we also carry most of our water weight in the mid-section. In this case, water weight appears to feel and look much like fat in the mid-section. With that said: buy some Extract and take it for 10 days @ max dose. It will shed 5-10lbs of water off and the vast majority of it being in the mid-section. It'll stay off for quite some time if your diet isn't too sodium exaggerated.

    2) Transdermal testosterone gel is localized for its healing purposes, namely for tendonitis in the elbows. I have a local orthopedic surgeon that prescribes test gel for tendonitis. Friends have tried this and claim that it works within 14-21 days. So if it heals joints locally...I almost could imagine it might be able to increase fat burning locally. I don't really know..
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I know that there are a few supplements that advertise that it does work...but...every time I talk to a doctor or an exercise science major (like my fiance), there is a strong understanding that fat loss is not and cannot be localized.

    However, I have 2 inputs on this:

    1) With the area you are particularly talking about, it's almost unimagineable how we as men can be ripped up every where else BUT the mid section..strange, I know. But I've come to the conclusion that it is not because of the fat localizing to that part of the body but because we also carry most of our water weight in the mid-section. In this case, water weight appears to feel and look much like fat in the mid-section. With that said: buy some Extract and take it for 10 days @ max dose. It will shed 5-10lbs of water off and the vast majority of it being in the mid-section. It'll stay off for quite some time if your diet isn't too sodium exaggerated.

    2) Transdermal testosterone gel is localized for its healing purposes, namely for tendonitis in the elbows. I have a local orthopedic surgeon that prescribes test gel for tendonitis. Friends have tried this and claim that it works within 14-21 days. So if it heals joints locally...I almost could imagine it might be able to increase fat burning locally. I don't really know..
    There is a study on topical licorice extract and assymetrical decrease in thigh circumference, for what it's worth.
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    Hey Thx Fueledpassion & bdcc...

    You're definately right on the water weight...when I eat unhealthy, I carry most of my water weight in my lower ab and back area.

    But I normally eat pretty well except on my cheat day, and they are still noticable even on my last good eating day...I look lean..4 abs are there, and then these floppy horrible pieces of fat....damn it LOL.

    A lot of the forum guys talk about "clenviscerate" = transdermal + clenbuterol. People seem to hype that up a lot, but eh.....I haven't seen anything really proving except a bunch of placebo effect. Even when people do these logs...lots of placebo.

    Anyone have any comments on clenviscerate or the like?

    bdcc, as for the topical licorice study...where did you see this? link me?

    Thanks,
    -Peter
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    "With that said: buy some Extract and take it for 10 days @ max dose. "

    What extract we talking about? LOL
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    Steroids. 2005 Jul;70(8):538-42. Epub 2005 Apr 12.
    Glycyrrhetinic acid, the active principle of licorice, can reduce the thickness of subcutaneous thigh fat through topical application.

    Authors: Armanini D, Nacamulli D, Francini-Pesenti F, Battagin G, Ragazzi E, Fiore C
    Department of Medical and Surgical Sciences-Endocrinology, University of Padua, Via Ospedale 105, 35100 Padua, Italy.

    Abstract

    Cortisol is involved in the distribution and deposition of fat, and its action is regulated by the activity of 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. Glycyrrhetinic acid, the active principle of licorice root, blocks 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1, thus reducing the availability of cortisol at the level of adipocytes. We evaluated the effect of topical application of a cream containing glycyrrhetinic acid in the thickness of fat at the level of the thigh. Eighteen healthy women (age range 20-33 years) with normal BMI were randomly allocated to treatment, at the level of the dominant thigh, with a cream containing 2.5% glycyrrhetinic acid (n=9) or with a placebo cream containing the excipients alone (n=9). Before and after 1 month of treatment both the circumference and the thickness of the superficial fat layer of the thighs (by ultrasound analysis) were measured. The circumference and the thickness of the superficial fat layer were significantly reduced in comparison to the controlateral untreated thigh and to control subjects treated with the placebo cream. No changes were observed in blood pressure, plasma renin activity, plasma aldosterone or cortisol. The effect of glycyrrhetinic acid on the thickness of subcutaneous fat was likely related to a block of 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 at the level of fat cells; therefore, glycyrrhetinic acid could be effectively used in the reduction of unwanted local fat accumulation.

    ---

    I get frustrated when people say things are impossible without looking at the research. It is a relatively small study but is worth recognising anyway. Take from it what you will.
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    bdcc, you really should stop posting in forums. You keep making me buy stuff even when I say enough is enough :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    There is a study on topical licorice extract and assymetrical decrease in thigh circumference, for what it's worth.
    There has also been studies done on topical aminophylline. Ive used eviscerate with great success.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17391155
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    hey Kevinhy,

    Great to hear...did you do any pre and post comparisons? How did you gauge your success? Pictures? or pinching?

    -Peter
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    ok bdcc....

    Great reply...

    OK so what about using Adrenosterone (11-oxo) in a transdermal, as this also inhibits 11-beta-HSD ?? =O

    I have seen people talk about this but not sure if anyone has tried and documented results

    -Peter
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    for what its worth, if you can increase HEAT/TEMP in that area (abdominals which have poor blood flow) it is easier for epinephrine and norepinephrine to work there. Otherwise, no blood flow, no fat burning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBEEF View Post
    hey Kevinhy,

    Great to hear...did you do any pre and post comparisons? How did you gauge your success? Pictures? or pinching?

    -Peter
    I gauge all my progress by the mirror.

    When you have stubborn fat patterns as bad as i get you can tell very easily that a product is working. Especially if its meant to target whatever fat you put it on.
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    OK cool, maybe I'll give that a shot...thx man!

    -Peter
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBEEF View Post
    "With that said: buy some Extract and take it for 10 days @ max dose. "

    What extract we talking about? LOL
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    maybe find an AI to take with yohimbine

    http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/4/1869.full
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBEEF View Post
    ok bdcc....

    Great reply...

    OK so what about using Adrenosterone (11-oxo) in a transdermal, as this also inhibits 11-beta-HSD ?? =O

    I have seen people talk about this but not sure if anyone has tried and documented results

    -Peter
    Patrick Arnold has a transdermal of the hormone 11-oxo converts to called 11-spray.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fadi View Post
    Patrick Arnold has a transdermal of the hormone 11-oxo converts to called 11-spray.
    Does anyone know where I can purchase Eviscerate and 11-spray?

    Perahps a 1-2 punch combo would work.

    The eviscerate+clen thing seems to have great reviews but be a bit painful =/

    -P
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    Hey ssbackwards,

    Interesting idea...where did you hear of this? Is this an idea you came up with or is this something that is known?

    Pretty cool!
    -Peter
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBEEF View Post
    Hey ssbackwards,

    Interesting idea...where did you hear of this? Is this an idea you came up with or is this something that is known?

    Pretty cool!
    -Peter
    heres the study

    Are blood flow and lipolysis in subcutaneous adipose tissue influenced by contractions in adjacent muscles in humans? -- Stallknecht et al. 292 (2): E394 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBEEF View Post
    Hello Everyone,

    Even though I do not post much, I read this forum all of the time and have some great experience with supplement/nutrition/bodybuilding. But there is one area where I have questions on which maybe some of you could help me with. So when I got out of high school, I went from 190 lbs 12%bf, to 257 lbs 3094049% bf...I am 5'9" by the way. From school, slower metabolism and lazy etc, I got fat.

    I slowly lost it after I got my **** together and changed my lifestyle. I have been stable with my diet and workout plan for 7 years now.

    I am 197 lbs, 12-13%bf..I have the 2 upper sets of abs but not the lower. HOWEVER...due to my previous weight gain, I have abnormally large love handles for my level of leaness...they are not HUGE but they are bigger than they should be...disproportionate....THEY DRIVE ME MOFO NUTS...

    So I am interested in trying the spot fat loss technique, using a transdermal...

    Here are some questions...

    1) Do they work? NO BS...like do they REALLY work or not...sort of is not an answer. Please answer if you have actually used one and had success or NO success.


    2) What is a good mix for a transdermal? I have clen/t3 at home but clen makes me feel weird.. I also have ECA at home, and a bunch of other crap..and willing to buy whatever..as long as it has some legitamate ingredients, and good user reviews.


    3) What kind of results should I expect to see?


    4) I have also consider getting lipo in just that area, but want to try this first...with lipo, you're removing actual fat cells...so if I accumulate fat, it will most likely go elsewhere, with the transdermals, if you stop using and keep diet the same, will it go back to those areas? I am assuming yes

    Thanks for the help,
    -Peter
    MrBeef,

    I have religiously experimented with tons of transdermal fat loss creams/gels on the market since 2002. Avants lipoderm, Yohimburn from AFstore, Pa's Skulpt, ALRI's DMSO based version Primordials Dermatherm, Eviscerate as of recent.

    IMO -- THEY WORK.

    I ONLY use them when dieting for a contest and BF% gets annoyingly stubborn the lower in BF you get. Homeostasis wants to reign supreme. I am talking LEAN lean here,,,, single digits (true) to be exact. When most body parts are "in" yet glutes tie-ins, lower/corner of back/kidney area and for some men lower abs.

    Genetically either men have stubborn low backs but abs come in nice or vice versa. For me it is corner back/kidney area (God I hate it) and the times I incinerated that last bit of fat WITHOUT a topical, I incinerated inches on my arms, chest etc.... in the process. Remember the body does not "selectively" choose where fats burns from that is why a topical would HELP this situation. Poster above mentioned this briefly.

    I know it is a blood flow, temperature issue and infiltrating something that ignites heat and ultimately blood flow will increase fat to be oxidized from that area. Capsaizen, raspberry ketones, aminophylline, yohimbineHCL, caffeine, nicotine, etc....I have found all great ingredients for inducing this response.

    So when I did incorporate the above, I did NOT lose inches from arms, thighs etc in order to burn that bull**** low back lard. I maintained a much heaver and "fuller" stage weight.

    My advice is to stress ALL facets first before you revert to that. It will be extremely hard if you do not have elite genetics to get into true single digits without being hormonally assisted. But if you get there, THESE DO WORK.
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    Hey Matt,

    Thanx for the reply...very nice. I know why I am at 13%...because my training and diet are balanced at such, and I am ok with that for now. I know that if I want to get leaner i have to tune diet better...my training is about maxed out. I go to the gym about 10 times/week + 10 mi trail run =/ My night eating is my diet problem area, which I can fix.

    I just feel for my overall leanness level, my love handles do not match the rest of my body. I have love handles of someone who is say 18-20%. Again they aren't huge, but they bother me, and they haven't been moving since my last gains(losses...from 203 lbs into up 190's). So now in all area I am leaning up like abs, lats, arms, getting leaner and looking better, but my stupid love handles just don't even move an inch.

    It seems eviscerate is not on the market anymore...can you recommend another good product?

    Also, what about wearing like some sort of an abdomen guard? like when I am at work, to keep the area warmer?

    -Peter
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Steroids. 2005 Jul;70(8):538-42. Epub 2005 Apr 12.
    Glycyrrhetinic acid, the active principle of licorice, can reduce the thickness of subcutaneous thigh fat through topical application.

    Authors: Armanini D, Nacamulli D, Francini-Pesenti F, Battagin G, Ragazzi E, Fiore C
    Department of Medical and Surgical Sciences-Endocrinology, University of Padua, Via Ospedale 105, 35100 Padua, Italy.

    Abstract

    Cortisol is involved in the distribution and deposition of fat, and its action is regulated by the activity of 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. Glycyrrhetinic acid, the active principle of licorice root, blocks 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1, thus reducing the availability of cortisol at the level of adipocytes. We evaluated the effect of topical application of a cream containing glycyrrhetinic acid in the thickness of fat at the level of the thigh. Eighteen healthy women (age range 20-33 years) with normal BMI were randomly allocated to treatment, at the level of the dominant thigh, with a cream containing 2.5% glycyrrhetinic acid (n=9) or with a placebo cream containing the excipients alone (n=9). Before and after 1 month of treatment both the circumference and the thickness of the superficial fat layer of the thighs (by ultrasound analysis) were measured. The circumference and the thickness of the superficial fat layer were significantly reduced in comparison to the controlateral untreated thigh and to control subjects treated with the placebo cream. No changes were observed in blood pressure, plasma renin activity, plasma aldosterone or cortisol. The effect of glycyrrhetinic acid on the thickness of subcutaneous fat was likely related to a block of 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 at the level of fat cells; therefore, glycyrrhetinic acid could be effectively used in the reduction of unwanted local fat accumulation.

    ---

    I get frustrated when people say things are impossible without looking at the research. It is a relatively small study but is worth recognising anyway. Take from it what you will.
    I hope no one is selling that...it lowers testosterone in men!

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2850159


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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinhy View Post
    There has also been studies done on topical aminophylline. Ive used eviscerate with great success.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17391155
    , I wasn't a true believer till I started applying the residue to solely my left forearm...big difference in vascularity, slight change in size

    interdasting

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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    I hope no one is selling that...it lowers testosterone in men!

    https://www.thieme-connect.com/ejour...5/s-2003-42724

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2850159


    It is in Eviscerate!

    Orally it raises blood pressure and prolongs the half life of cortisol as well. I have still used the product.
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    i dont think there is enough in eviscerate to go systematically and drop t levels anything dramatic.
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    Sub'd I fall into a similar bracket lmk if anything. Works well for you
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    just added 150mg of aromasin to half my bottle of clenviscerate with added hca octopamin fucoxanthin and choline

    will let you guys know
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    i dont think there is enough in eviscerate to go systematically and drop t levels anything dramatic.
    The abstract also mentions in another study they failed to reproduce the results

    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    just added 150mg of aromasin to half my bottle of clenviscerate with added hca octopamin fucoxanthin and choline

    will let you guys know
    oh damn man?! What are you targeting? Obviously with so much **** it will be somewhat systemic but I can't imagine adipose holding up well to that

    octopamin?

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    eviserate and avant's lipoderm or napalm are still available. orbit has a discount on eviserate aswell

    also clen + whatever is great but depending on your dose you will feel some systemic effects, and in that case i advise you buy 2 topicals and spike one. so you dont have to do 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off (to minismise systemic side effects not fat burning efficasy ;-) )

    lastly, as other have said, you need to be on a calori deficit. think about it, if all those topicals do release the fat into the blood stream, then you need to have them as your only source for energy so they dont get redeposited.

    so time your meals preferably around the application time. consider even a minor fast in the morning after application(bcaa's or some protein shouldnt matter much i guess if you feel too run down)

    good luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by itzDodge View Post
    The abstract also mentions in another study they failed to reproduce the results



    oh damn man?! What are you targeting? Obviously with so much **** it will be somewhat systemic but I can't imagine adipose holding up well to that

    octopamin?
    octopamine is NORsynephrine

    im going on the estrogen study i posed in the lean gains discussion forum. so well see, 10mg is all you need per day orally of aromasin. so 150mg should be good in half the bottle given better absorbability i assume

    i just wanna see how it works up until 2 days prior to the tattoo i get on my lower stomach lol dont need any fat sportin a V of clown tatts haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    octopamine is NORsynephrine

    im going on the estrogen study i posed in the lean gains discussion forum. so well see, 10mg is all you need per day orally of aromasin. so 150mg should be good in half the bottle given better absorbability i assume

    i just wanna see how it works up until 2 days prior to the tattoo i get on my lower stomach lol dont need any fat sportin a V of clown tatts haha
    Not a big fan of octopamine. What is your thinking with the choline in the transdermal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Not a big fan of octopamine. What is your thinking with the choline in the transdermal?
    i think octopamine is much better then synephrine orally. topically, i dont know. My addition of choline... well.... i duno. had it, tossed it in. cant hurt, works well to mobilize fat, and carnitine i added too.

    so we shall see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    i think octopamine is much better then synephrine orally. topically, i dont know. My addition of choline... well.... i duno. had it, tossed it in. cant hurt, works well to mobilize fat, and carnitine i added too.

    so we shall see.
    Yeah, I wouldn't expect much from the choline at all as far as fat loss...octopamine seems bunk based on my research BUT transdermal delivery may alter things, I'll have to revisit the studies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Yeah, I wouldn't expect much from the choline at all as far as fat loss...octopamine seems bunk based on my research BUT transdermal delivery may alter things, I'll have to revisit the studies.
    it matters orally if you get octopamine though enteric coated tabs or non enteric coating.

    from all my research enteric seems to be the way for most every supplement.


    octopamine at 300mg per day is good.
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    So what is this topical concoction looking like SS?

    Also wouldnt the aromasin pills be easier to add to the topical then that thick research chem liquid? Plus I never really trusted those RC sites and always went with the pharma grade stuff.

    These may interest some of you who are curious about topical fat loss
    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...ater-fat-loss/
    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/3...opical-fatloss
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    So what is this topical concoction looking like SS?

    Also wouldnt the aromasin pills be easier to add to the topical then that thick research chem liquid? Plus I never really trusted those RC sites and always went with the pharma grade stuff.

    These may interest some of you who are curious about topical fat loss
    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/article...ater-fat-loss/
    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/3...opical-fatloss
    thanks

    this topical solution has a bunch of adipose annihilation caps in it, some clen, some NO Infuse, some absolution plus and some aromasin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBEEF View Post
    Hey Matt,

    Thanx for the reply...very nice. I know why I am at 13%...because my training and diet are balanced at such, and I am ok with that for now. I know that if I want to get leaner i have to tune diet better...my training is about maxed out. I go to the gym about 10 times/week + 10 mi trail run =/ My night eating is my diet problem area, which I can fix.

    I just feel for my overall leanness level, my love handles do not match the rest of my body. I have love handles of someone who is say 18-20%. Again they aren't huge, but they bother me, and they haven't been moving since my last gains(losses...from 203 lbs into up 190's). So now in all area I am leaning up like abs, lats, arms, getting leaner and looking better, but my stupid love handles just don't even move an inch.

    It seems eviscerate is not on the market anymore...can you recommend another good product?

    Also, what about wearing like some sort of an abdomen guard? like when I am at work, to keep the area warmer?

    -Peter
    Let me ask you an honest question ---

    From your description of your problematic areas, you seem like you might be a hard gainer for muscle and also have a hard time getting lean super easy? I can envision your body type pretty clearly and I wonder if I saw pics how "on" I would be.

    Perhaps youd could try prosource.com and seeif they still sell avant labs lipoderm, apply capzaisen HP prior to Lipoderm, wait 10 mins, apply lipoderm. You could add 15 mls of liquid clen into the lipoderm too. (15mls dosed at 100mcg/ml)

    I personally liked lipoClen + CapHP in morning, then Primordial's dermatherm at night. Eventually after gutting out the first 2 weeks of capzaisen you epidermis sensitivity will decrease and the burn will be way more tolerant.

    I also have people wear a waist trimmer to keep heat in stubborn fatty areas too.....

    -Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    Let me ask you an honest question ---

    From your description of your problematic areas, you seem like you might be a hard gainer for muscle and also have a hard time getting lean super easy? I can envision your body type pretty clearly and I wonder if I saw pics how "on" I would be.

    Perhaps youd could try prosource.com and seeif they still sell avant labs lipoderm, apply capzaisen HP prior to Lipoderm, wait 10 mins, apply lipoderm. You could add 15 mls of liquid clen into the lipoderm too. (15mls dosed at 100mcg/ml)

    I personally liked lipoClen + CapHP in morning, then Primordial's dermatherm at night. Eventually after gutting out the first 2 weeks of capzaisen you epidermis sensitivity will decrease and the burn will be way more tolerant.

    I also have people wear a waist trimmer to keep heat in stubborn fatty areas too.....

    -Matt
    lol my skin never gets use to cap.. continues to burn like a mofo!
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