7-OXO-DHEA

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  1. 7-OXO-DHEA


    How much 7-oxo should be taken transdermally everyday for best results?


  2. Bump

    How much 7-oxo for a serious PCT protocol?
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  3. fl7 experiences please

    Here is a little info but some fresh opinions would be helpful..
  4. Moderator
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Typically 200mg/d (100mg x 2) transdermal.

  5. Full dosing on Avant's FL7 was actually 100 mg/day (3g per 4oz. bottle - lasts 30 days). But many have gone higher (as Brian stated above with 200 mg/day).

    Personally, I saw no greater effects running 200 mg/day over 100 mg/day, so I typically just stick to the full dosing levels of FL7 when running topical 7-oxo now.
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  6. metacort has 3g of 7-oxo plus 6-oxo

  7. Quote Originally Posted by acecombact1
    metacort has 3g of 7-oxo plus 6-oxo
    This product would be good for pct.

  8. what about females taken orally? or is this effective for females.
  9. Moderator
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowJack
    Full dosing on Avant's FL7 was actually 100 mg/day (3g per 4oz. bottle - lasts 30 days). But many have gone higher (as Brian stated above with 200 mg/day).

    Personally, I saw no greater effects running 200 mg/day over 100 mg/day, so I typically just stick to the full dosing levels of FL7 when running topical 7-oxo now.
    SJ, your post made me go....hmmmm. I have always dosed at 200mg/d and I know I had some reasoning behind it. So when I got home today I researched my old empty bottles.

    The old (first) FL7 (final) that AL released (metalic can/label) was labeled as follows:

    Serving Size: 2ml-4ml (4-8 pumps)
    Servings Per Container: 60-120

    Amount Per 4 Pumps: 50mg

    Recommendations: Rub 4 pumps of gel into skin twice daily...etc

    I remember using the 8 pumps (100mg) two times per day right from the start as it has always been rather inexpensive. But as you know at that dose it would only last for 15 days.

    That is when (you may recall) I inquired with you (the-great-home-brew-master) regarding saturation point. I wanted to keep the 200mg/d but 15 days a bottle was not enough for a ~30 day PCT. That is when I made my Super FL7 (+3g of 7-OXO). This way I could use half the pumps but still get the 200mg/d.

    Being that I got in on the pre-discontinuation sale (10 for $100) that Par had on it I have just continued to add the 3g of 7-OXO and run it with my PCT for the full 30 days. At ~$15 for 30 days it is well worth it.

    FWIW...I feel better now, as I knew there was some reasoning behind why I have always dosed at 200mg/d.

    I can only speculate that more could be better in regard to PCT and anti-cortisol. I feel that it may be (in my experience) a considerable deterant to fat acrual when combined with E/C in PCT caloric surplus. I also feel it may contribute significantly to positive partioning during refeeds and or periods of caloric excess while dieting or recomping. It does and will remain a main staple in all my PCT's.

    I feel better now...

  10. hum im thinking to use metacort for my PCT now with clen and nolva. this will be good anti-catbolic cocktail

  11. I have always liked FL7 and tried absolved for PCT last cycle and liked just as much (although I am a little skeptical of the localized theory, but whatever...it works!) I used 200mg daily also

  12. Quote Originally Posted by jweave23
    I have always liked FL7 and tried absolved for PCT last cycle and liked just as much (although I am a little skeptical of the localized theory, but whatever...it works!) I used 200mg daily also
    I really liked fl7 for pct and bought some metacort to use after my next cycle whenever I run it.

  13. Brian,

    Good post. I am not disagreeing with you in anything that you said. But since you took the time out to explain, I too will explain my reasoning:


    Quote Originally Posted by b5150
    The old (first) FL7 (final) that AL released (metalic can/label) was labeled as follows:

    Serving Size: 2ml-4ml (4-8 pumps)
    Servings Per Container: 60-120

    Amount Per 4 Pumps: 50mg

    Recommendations: Rub 4 pumps of gel into skin twice daily...etc
    I also took advantage of the 10 bottles for $100 sale. Not just from Par, but Mike was also running another special around that time. I must have 20+ bottles of this stuff laying around here.

    But I have never even bothered to look at one of the newer, metallic bottles (moreless actually used one), as I still have a supply of the original betas in the older, plastic (4 oz.) bottles. I have alternated between the beta bottles (when I have less time) and brewing my own (particularly when adding other things in addition to 7-oxo), and haven't had to break into my supply of the newer metallic bottles yet. So I definitely take your word on what the labels say on those bottles.

    The original plastic bottles (beta version FL7) say 3 squirts 2x per day. And there is 3g of 7-oxo per bottle, at a concentration of 25 mg/ml. So that would work out to being 100 mg/day total, and a bottle would last for 30 days.

    In light of the labels on the newer bottles, perhaps I should not have referred to that as "full" dosing.


    Quote Originally Posted by b5150
    That is when (you may recall) I inquired with you (the-great-home-brew-master) regarding saturation point. I wanted to keep the 200mg/d but 15 days a bottle was not enough for a ~30 day PCT. That is when I made my Super FL7 (+3g of 7-OXO). This way I could use half the pumps but still get the 200mg/d.
    I recall this quite well. Personally, I believe that there are better things to add to a bottle of FL7 than an additional 3g of 7-oxo. As stated in my post above, I feel that 200 mg/day of topical 7-oxo is not really any more effective (from a body comp. stand-point) then 100 mg/day of topical 7-oxo. I also recall that Dio experimented with these same dosing levels and came to the same conclusion that I did.

    But if you have found that 200 mg/day of topical 7-oxo works better for you, than I would prolly stick with that. Like you said, it is cheap and easy to do, and by adding 3g of 7-oxo to a bottle of FL7, the gel will again last for 30 days at that dosing level.


    Quote Originally Posted by b5150
    I can only speculate that more could be better in regard to PCT and anti-cortisol. I feel that it may be (in my experience) a considerable deterant to fat acrual when combined with E/C in PCT caloric surplus. I also feel it may contribute significantly to positive partioning during refeeds and or periods of caloric excess while dieting or recomping. It does and will remain a main staple in all my PCT's.
    B, like I said above, I do not disagree with any of this. I also dose topical 7-oxo religiously during post-cycle periods and when eating in excess (among other times - I prolly dose it at least half of the year, if not more). I definitely feel that it is better for preventing fat gain than it is for actual fat loss. Also, you are prolly right that more is better for reducing cortisol during PCT periods.

    It is just my experience that I have not seen any greater effects on body comp. when running a 30-day cycle at 200 mg/day vs. a 30-day cycle at only 100 mg/day. It is also my feeling that there are better uses for the remainder of the gel's saturation limit than adding more 7-oxo.

    Other than that, I agree with your post entirely.

    ShadowJack

  14. Quote Originally Posted by b5150
    Since you posted that link to David's article (well worth reading, BTW), I will post a short excerpt from it:


    The oral dosage recommended in the literature is 200 mg (100 mg twice daily), although some have reported using higher doses. For oral use, it would ideally be taken multiple times throughout the day. Most have used a dose around 100 mg transdermally, although it is clear that even 25 mg transdermally exerts an effect.

  15. Also, one more good read on the subject of topical 7-oxo is Par's original write-up on FL7. Note that this was written at the time when the original, beta version (4oz. plastic bottle) was released:


    FL7: A Revolution in Fatloss


    Well, our new topical fat loss product, FL7 is here. As many figured out, the “7? is for 7-oxo-DHEA (aka “7-keto ™ DHEA), which is the active ingredient. Obviously, 7-oxo-DHEA is nothing new, but as with 4-AD, you take an old, unspectacular ingredient, with poor oral bioavailability, stick it in our miracle gels and Voila’, you have gold.

    Let us get right into the science on 7-oxo and FL7. Feedback from our initial beta testers will follow.

    Editors Note: 7-oxo has far fewer studies on it than plain DHEA, but it is widely agreed, in the literature, that 7-oxo mediates DHEA’s metabolic effects of interest. Actually, it is likely a metabolite of 7-oxo, as well, which binds to a specific, as of yet undiscovered/uncharacterized receptor, but that is beside the point. The point is, 7-oxo is about 2.5 times as strong as plain DHEA, but without the effects on sex hormones. So, assume this on DHEA studies, unless specifically noted.


    FL7 and Glucocorticoids
    Cortisol’s role in the body is often greatly misunderstood in the bodybuilding community. To grasp its role in body composition, one needs to understand glucocorticoid biosynthesis/equilibrium. Glucocorticoids exist in humans in two primary forms, the inactive cortisone and the active (and dreaded) cortisol. These exist in the body, in a constant state of flux back and forth, depending on the enzyme situation.

    What is of note is that the two isoenzymes that convert one to the other have vastly differing concentrations in different tissues. For example, in adipose tissue, only the first isomer of 11-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (11b-HSD1), is found.

    11b-HSD1 generally acts as a reductive enzyme, converting Cortisone to Cortisol – it can also act as a dehydrogenase in other tissue, but in human adipose tissue, it is always oxoreductive in the adipose and liver. Increased activity of this enzyme is implicated in some forms of obesity in both animals and humans.

    On the other hand, 11b-HSD2 generally acts as a dehydrogenase, converting cortisol to inactive cortisone. It is not particularly important for our purposed, beyond that, so we will go in no more detail.

    Keep the above in the back of your mind, as it is going to have a good deal of significance that we will go into later….

    So, what is the point of this?? FL7’s magic ingredient, 7-oxo-DHEA, decreases 11b-HSD activity.


    Glucocorticoids and Adipose Tissue
    So, how is the cortisol factor related to fat loss? Adipogenesis involves differention of preadipocytes into adipocytes. Cortisol inhibits proliferation of preadipocytes, which tips the balance towards differentiation. In other words, cortisol promotes the formation of new fat cells.

    And, as we know, empty adipose cells make wonderful sponges for tryglecerides. In addition to this, all cells in the body turnover, meaning they die and are replaced. If we inhibit the formation of new fat cells (via inhibiting cortisol activity in the fat cell), given that fat cell death remains constant, we would have ourselves a very modest, on-going liposuction effect.


    FL7 and Thyroid Activity
    In additions to its wonderful effects on cortisol levels in adipose tissue, FL7 promotes lipolysis on another front as well – thyroid activity. DHEA and 7-oxo have been found in some studies to increase t3 levels in animals and humans. However, its primary action, in this regard, is to potentiate the effect of t3.

    Two of the primary markers of thyroid induced thermogenesis are malic enzyme and glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (GPD). Guess what else has been found to increase these enzymes….??? Yep, 7-oxo.

    It has been postulated that 7-oxo’s effects on thyroid occur only in the liver, thus arguing against transdermal usage. However, injections of DHEA (which would also bypass the liver) were found to increase malic enzyme activity in the liver 9 fold in just one week (interestingly, levels had not yet peaked at this point), the same increase produced by t3.

    Also of interest, thyroid hormone was required for DHEA’s increase in malic enzyme activity, indicate that it potentiates t3 rather than increasing levels. So, please do be quite careful if you intend to use thyroid medications and FL7 concurrently.


    FL7's Advantages vs. Oral
    That is all well and good, but why not just take it orally?? There are two primary (and significant) reasons:

    Number one is increased bioavailability. You get far more 7-oxo in your system, mg/mg than with oral. I'm sure our gel's reputation for improving the efficacy of steroids versus oral usage (i.e. ONE+. ONE, 4-ADerm) should be all most of you need to know.... well, at least until I get the real data up in a few hours.

    Remember when I said to keep the 11b-HSD isoenzyme situation in the back of your mind??? Well, that is the second thing. With oral usage, we suppress 11b-HSD one activity in the liver.

    This increases dehydrogenase activity in the body, lowering systemic cortisol (good right?? Nope.), which will increase ACTH activity in response, to try to keep cortisol elevated. And, with 11b-HSD1 suppressed, this newly released cortisol gets sent down the cortisone side of the isoenzyme equilibrium.

    WTF does this mean??? There will be an increase in systemic corticosterone to serve as substrate for formation of the dreaded cortisol in the oxoreductase-only adipose tissue. Oh, and did I mention that obese people are already prone to this phenomenon because of increased peripheral levels of 11b-hsd1 and 5-alpha reductase (which also deactivates cortisol).

    Ugh.

    Never fear. Transdermal administration eliminates this problem by avoiding the liver, so 7-oxo is not working against itself.


    Q: Can this be used with oral stimulants, such as ECA, Yohimbine or Synephrine?
    A: Yes, one can certainly stack FL7 with such substances.


    Q: Can FL7 be used during periods of maintenance intake, or even caloric excess, to impede fat accumulation?
    A: FL7 would be very effective in this capacity, absolutely. In fact, many users have reported that when supplementing with FL7, they have not experienced near the degree of fat gain typically expected when ingesting large amounts of calories, during a vacation weekend of gorging, for instance.


    Q: Can using FL7 at amounts in excess of the recommend dose elicit greater effects on metabolic rate, thyroid output, etc?
    A: Perhaps, though this is not recommend. The effects of increasing the dosage beyond twice the recommended amount are unknown. So, one can significantly raise dosages; if however such would elicit double the benefit, or any real increase in positive effects, is disputable.


    Q: After a couple days of use, I have noticed a definite rise in body temperature. Is this the result of FL7, and if so, is this normal?
    A: FL7's effect as a thyroid potentiator may very well result in the elevation of body temperature as whole body thermogensis is increased. FL7's effects on body temperature may be acutely perceived after a meal. This is one mechanism by which FL7 exerts its lipolytic effects, and is not something to be overly concerned about, no. Most users report quickly growing accustomed to this elevated body temperature, such that it becomes subjectively unnoticeable after 1-2 weeks of use. Rest assured, however, that the decrease in perception of elevated body temperature does not mean that FL7 is not continuing to exert its beneficial effects.


    Q: Is there anything that we need to be aware of in regards to coming off of an FL7 cycle? Is there a likelihood of a 'rebound' as is so often experienced with direct thyroid hormones such as T3?
    A: Discontinuation of use should not cause any type of rebound, though a brief tapering of the product certainly wouldn't be harmful for those overly concerned.


    Q: Can this be used with AB-Solved?
    A: Absolutely. If one does choose to stack these two supplements, apply to different areas. Make sure however, to apply AB-Solved to the area you wish to target specifically, as its effects are localized.


    Q: Is there any benefit in stacking FL7 with oral guggelsterones, 7-keto, or other indirect thyroid stimulators? Can it be used with T3 or T4
    A: Perhaps. 7Keto potentiates the action of Thyroidals so one should begin such supplementation at lower doses and assess tolerance, judiciously monitoring for the manifestation of negative side effects. As always, should side effects arise, discontinue use of said products and consult your physician.


    Q: Can FL7 be used in conjunction with androgens?
    A: Yes. FL7 is an excellent addition to AAS, due largely to its activity as a Thyroid potentiator. The result of said potentiation is an increase in the rate of protein synthesis, thus accelerating the accumulation of mass. Preliminary research has also suggested that supplementation with substances such as FL7 may lower estrogen by as much as 50% in as little as seven days. At the present time however, this data and its pertinence to FL7 supplementation is largely speculative, and has yet to be conclusively established.


    Q: Does FL7 need to be cycled?
    A: Financial constraints aside, there is no need to cycle FL7. Extended use will not decrease its metabolic benefits.


    Q: Is there any optimal time of the day to apply FL7, such as pre-workout?A: Application time does not matter; simply strive to apply twice daily, approximately 12hrs apart.


    Each 4 oz bottle contains 3 grams of 7-oxo-DHEA and lasts around 30 days.

  16. It is also my feeling that there are better uses for the remainder of the gel's saturation limit than adding more 7-oxo.
    What would you reccommend adding?

    On a related note, have you had a chance to try the topical C out? Any luck?
  17. Moderator
    David Dunn's Avatar

    SJ,

    Agree with you as well on all accounts. And yes, I noticed David's write-up regarding the 100mg before I pasted it.

    I do have empty beta bottles laying around as well, with the 3x2 dosing. The newer metallic cans with the FL7 in red now state 4-6 squirts.

    I may be inclined to reduce to 100mg/d to see if experience any less benefit.

    Always enjoy discussion with you SJ.

    B

  18. Quote Originally Posted by custom
    What would you reccommend adding?
    For post cycle, bulk Androstenetrione powder is the best addition, IMO (it would be similar to Mike's MetaCourt). This combo is a staple for me during PCT.

    ALCAR also makes a good addition; I have posted about this over at M&M. Bulk PS is another good adder for reducing cortisol as well.

    A couple of other things that I have tried did not work out as well, and Brian's idea of additional 7-oxo would have been better (which I have done as well). But I love to experiment and try new things out.

    I have several other ideas for things that I would love to try out, but the problem would be sourcing the bulk powders in a quality (enough) extract (high %).

    Quote Originally Posted by custom
    On a related note, have you had a chance to try the topical C out? Any luck?
    Matt, I haven't had the chance to try it yet, as I have been swamped the last few weeks. But I am (extremely) anxious to give it a whirl, and plan to mix it up this weekend, as I should have time. With any luck then, I will begin dosing early next week.


    After I run thru a bottle (~3 wks. or so) I will definitely update you on my results.

  19. Sweet. I'd love to try it myself, but I'll let you be the first guinea pig.

  20. I'm using metacort with nolva right now for my PCT. I added an additional 3 grams of 7 oxo to this and although there are a few dissolution problems it seems to be working fine. There is a tiny bit of clumping but it has not clogged the sprayer. Other than the 6-oxo induced acne, I think the product is great for PCT.

    One word of caution though. I was heating the metacort in a hot water bath, added 3 grams of 7 oxo, and let it sit for about 30 minutes (I forgot about it). When I came back to shake it the soution had apparently seperated into it's constituent elements. One or more of the aqueous layers had super-heated so when I picked up the bottle it spewed boiling metacort all over me.

    Fortunately the boiling temp was probably about 120F so I was not scalded. I lost about half of the bottle but a good portion of it went all over my chest..so I recieved a mega dose. I felt pretty serene for about 10 hours.



    I added about 6 grams of caffeine to my last bottle of Lipodern Y. To test the systemic vs local theory I put about 4 -5 squirts on mid-afternoon. Despite being physically exhausted from 3 days of mountain climbing, I could not sleep a wink that night until about 5am.

    When used in conjunction with rigorous hiking it seemed to work well. Sub-Q fat decreased noticablely in 14 days.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by ShadowJack
    For post cycle, bulk Androstenetrione powder is the best addition, IMO (it would be similar to Mike's MetaCourt). This combo is a staple for me during PCT.

    ALCAR also makes a good addition; I have posted about this over at M&M. Bulk PS is another good adder for reducing cortisol as well.

    .
    What is PS?

  22. Phosphatydil serine

  23. Quote Originally Posted by custom
    What would you reccommend adding?

    On a related note, have you had a chance to try the topical C out? Any luck?
    Vitamin C, Clomid, caffeine? What are we talking about here? I'm always down to be a guinea pig too!

  24. im going to hombrew t-gel with 4 grams 7-keto, 2 grams 6-oxo and maybe add some caffeien to mix. with my nolva and clen

    clen and 7-keto combo lowers cortisol level for under 40% which is excellent for PCT
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