If the insulin spike is a myth, why the insulin mimic supps?

[AutoKal47]

Hey guys

since I'm going to start Glycobol this week I started to read a bit more about
insulin spike, pwo fast carbs etc..
Now I'm gonna start having a carb refeed day a week, I say start because I haven't been doing it
despite in a very low carb diet all year round, out of paranoia..

Anyways, you read everything and the opposite and I start getting a bit confused on the carbs/insulin subject,
so I'd like to see what's your thoughts on 2011.

Goal: *lean gains*, nothing massive, I have around 4/5% BF and I want to keep it that way,
so here the questions:

- The whole "you need high GI carbs pwo to get the insulin spike" thing is bs, right?

PWO we just need carbs, the cleaner the better (aside from whey, crea, beta and/or any other supps we might take, I'm talking about carbs..)
because after workout the muscle are rimed to receive nutrients, correct?
Now, assuming that's a fact, are high GI carbs pwo bad?

- If so, why do we take supplements that mimic insulin?
Insulin shuttles carbs/nutrients into muscles? <---- But if that's true, then why the high GI carbs pwo (which will spike insulin) is bad?

I'm sure I'm missing something stupid, I'm here to learn so thank to everyone who'll chime in

 

[elgenyo]

Seriously dude, if your avatar is you, you look good no homo.

 

[EArch]

The idea is this:

You take whey (which is fast) with fast high GI carbs (like dextrose) and your creatine. Your body is craving nutritents, if you take the protien alone a good amount of it will be used for energy right away and not make it to the muscle. But the fast carbs are used as energy right away while the creatine and protein is shuttled to the muscles in need. I think it works personally, I have seen results doing it. I do it when bulking every time.

I dont do it cutting because for some reason I believe that for a time after the insulin spike your body can not burn fat/ shuts down lipolysis or w/e. I read that somewhere once.

 

[mr.cooper69]

The idea is this:

You take whey (which is fast) with fast high GI carbs (like dextrose) and your creatine. Your body is craving nutritents, if you take the protien alone a good amount of it will be used for energy right away and not make it to the muscle. But the fast carbs are used as energy right away while the creatine and protein is shuttled to the muscles in need. I think it works personally, I have seen results doing it. I do it when bulking every time.

I dont do it cutting because for some reason I believe that for a time after the insulin spike your body can not burn fat/ shuts down lipolysis or w/e. I read that somewhere once.

Parts of this are utterly incorrect.

OP, you also have quite a few misconceptions in your own post. It will all be a lot clearer once you read some of the work of Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon. I will be happy to clarify for you, but I always suggest doing your own research and drawing your own conclusions first.

 

[AutoKal47]

Seriously dude, if your avatar is you, you look good no homo.

Yes, that's me
well thanks, I don't really see myself that good but I know the
situation is not bad overall.
I know I can improve and I know I might have missed something not doing refeed so far
my strength went up pretty noticeably lately and it seems a good moment to try to
get some lean pounds.
But like I said, I wanna do it in the cleanest way possible and that's why I'm asking about this
I never took an insulin mimic product before, which I will use on my refeed day experiment i tried researching about it and ran into some doubts about the whole
insulin/fast carbs thing

Parts of this are utterly incorrect.

OP, you also have quite a few misconceptions in your own post. It will all be a lot clearer once you read some of the work of Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon. I will be happy to clarify for you, but I always suggest doing your own research and drawing your own conclusions first.

Hi there,
I wasn't making statements, like I said i read about it, tried to find the more reliable sources
and ran into so many different theories and I wasn't able to get a final reliable word in the matter

The insulin mimic supplements seem to go against the theory that the insulin spike is not needed after a heavy workout,
but, I am sure that is how it appears to me because I am indeed missing something.
That's why I was asking around

I'll try to find the work you mentioned tho'

 

[AutoKal47]

Ok, I read some articles by both Aragon and McDonald, specifically Aragon's take on the "is it necessary to spike insulin pwo?"

And while is reported that one doesn't need high GI carbs to do that, but any mixed meal,
that a prewo meal will spike insulin levels way more than the pwo meal (3 times after 30 minutes, 5 times after 60 minutes and at aftern 300 min
the levels were shown to be still twice the fasting state), on the very first lines of the article I could read that the insulin spike can benefit
people that workout fasted (which I do) and in another article was mentioned that 45/60 min wo on the same muscle group
won't deplete glycogen, but 90/120 min wo will (which again, it's my case).

For this fast reading (i'm planning on going on, just reporting the first impression) I also seem to have a high insulin secretion (i do pass the heck out after my pwo shake/meal/carbs)
I don't know about my insulin sensitivity because I haven't been taking more than 10/15gr of carbs a meal (aside from my pwo) in years, so I'll see how I feel on my refeed day and try
to figure that out.

So, overall.. I'm even more confused!

Insulin spike is overall not needed, unless.. you're me, working out fasted for 2h30min a day to failure. In this case, it might be beneficial.
BUT, I don't need fast/high GI carbs to do that (boosting insulin level), so complex carbs with my whey is gonna do the trick (i read also about the fats but I won't go there)
So where the insulin spiking effect of Glycobol comes in handy??

The more I read the more I get confused, I guess it'll take time for me to really understand :/

 

[scherbs]

AutoKal
I don't want to take this thread in a totally different direction--but you seriously need to consider your orientation towards your body image/fitness.
At 4-5% bodyfat you "don't see yourself that good"?
I am less concerned with your "refeed experiments" and insulin spiking than I am about your body dysmorphia. . .

 

[AutoKal47]

Eh, I know, but i'm way too old to even try to change that
I doubt I'll ever see myself ok, but it doesn't bother me anymore

Keep reading about the subject anyway, I stand where I was in my last post seeking confirmation or demystification

- No need to fast carbs to spike insulin, but an insulin mimic sup is suppose to help spiking it

- Insulin spike n most cases is not needed but in my case most likely is (2h+ fasted state "to failure" wo on the same muscle group, low carbs all year round)

is that correct?
If so, the insulin mimic supplements would make more sense now, insulin spike IS beneficial, is the use of fast carb load pwo that is bs..

At this point just out of curiosity: if fast carbs pwo are not needed, would they be bad? I assume yes since anyway it's sugar

 

[Austin118]

Seriously dude, if your avatar is you, you look good no homo.

This ^^^^^^ !!! seriously have you gained all that muscle on low carbs???

 

[AutoKal47]

This ^^^^^^ !!! seriously have you gained all that muscle on low carbs???

I'm not that big really, I'm just 176lbs, picture is up to date tho' (30-ish days ago)

but yes, I've been in low carbs for years, no refeed, no cheat meals

High doses of BCAA makes all the difference for me for keeping mass
and also give me great recovery between sets, not a fancy supp but well, it works well in my book

 

[Outside Backer]

2 reese cups PWO with my shake is awesome

jus sayin

 

[AutoKal47]

2 reese cups PWO with my shake is awesome

jus sayin

Shhh don't tell me! I'm already having hard time here

 

[RoadBlocK]

Not sure if you will find this of any interest:

http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20100604/chocolate-milk-refuels-muscles-after-workout

 

[Whacked]

Auto: Just keep doing exactly what youre doing as it's clearly working.

Play around with some additional calories for that additional mass you so desire. If you are paranoid about carbs as you've conveyed, perhaps adding lean protein sources or healthy fats as your sourses of calories is the most sensible approach for you.

Respectfully, don't get caught up with all thebro-logic minutia perpetrated on these forums. The body is much more complicated than to allow for such simplified narrow-viewed suggestions such as carb-timing and nutrient partitioners for someone who's already depleted of carbs. K.I.S.S. (In others, this might have some merit then again, iot might not).

Everyone will tell you what works for "them" or to pimp their line of products. The guru's named above are no doubt wise but similarly, their approach will not work for everyone no different than any other guru's with contrasting opinions.

At the end of the day, the additional calories will add weight. Keeping these additional calories clean and playiny around with the macro choices will allow you to discover what best works for you.

PS: I also subscribe to the BCAA discipline for multiple reasons. Works wonders for me as well especially noted when dieting or in a fasted state.

PSS: Like you, I do the maniac low carb things and it works for me very well. However, I cheat every 3rd of 4th day to ensure thyroid and leptin levels don't get wrecked and to maintain sanity. Ironically, this works very well to retain leannesss year round.

I'm not that big really, I'm just 176lbs, picture is up to date tho' (30-ish days ago)

but yes, I've been in low carbs for years, no refeed, no cheat meals

High doses of BCAA makes all the difference for me for keeping mass
and also give me great recovery between sets, not a fancy supp but well, it works well in my book

 

[AutoKal47]

Auto: Just keep doing exactly what youre doing as it's clearly working.

Play around with some additional calories for that additional mass you so desire. If you are paranoid about carbs as you've conveyed, perhaps adding lean protein sources or healthy fats as your sourses of calories is the most sensible approach for you.

Respectfully, don't get caught up with all thebro-logic minutia perpetrated on these forums. The body is much more complicated than to allow for such simplified narrow-viewed suggestions such as carb-timing and nutrient partitioners for someone who's already depleted of carbs. K.I.S.S. (In others, this might have some merit then again, iot might not).

Everyone will tell you what works for "them" or to pimp their line of products. The guru's named above are no doubt wise but similarly, their approach will not work for everyone no different than any other guru's with contrasting opinions.

At the end of the day, the additional calories will add weight. Keeping these additional calories clean and playiny around with the macro choices will allow you to discover what best works for you.

PS: I also subscribe to the BCAA discipline for multiple reasons. Works wonders for me as well especially noted when dieting or in a fasted state.

PSS: Like you, I do the maniac low carb things and it works for me very well. However, I cheat every 3rd of 4th day to ensure thyroid and leptin levels don't get wrecked and to maintain sanity. Ironically, this works very well to retain leannesss year round.

Ah, you can't possibly know how much I appreciate your reply.
I'm sure you know sometimes it gets a bit hard and one's looking for some "fresh air",
a change, even small.. but your reply is a wake up call, really.
It happened before, while I get curious I'm also very careful with changes,
'cause I know things are different for different people.

I've always trained following instinct and paid attention to my body more than following "plans" or what's suppose to be done, and you're right,
overall, it did work..

I will give the refeed a try like I said (and stop giving me headache about timing and insulin spikes and such )

At first I will keep calories to the same amount, just lowering protein in favor of (clean) carbs, I don't know if that's gonna be considered a refeed,
but that's how I'm gonna start with, then take it from there
Some days (usually after the two heaviest days) I happen to look flatter, and really have energy to barely function
I hope the refeed is gonna help me with that without making me gaining fat. Your experience with that gives me good hope

thank a lot Whacked, much appreciated

 

[seccsi]

- The whole "you need high GI carbs pwo to get the insulin spike" thing is bs, right?

I've never used any insulin mimickers as I'm just not sure I love the science behind them. If you have the product though go for it.

I just wanted to highlight that I think what I quoted is 100% true. Personally I think a lot of the magic window type stuff was created by supplement companies to sell products. I'm low carb pretty much year round as well and while if I AM getting carbs in I like to do it in the range of the workout area, I certainly don't think it is necessary.

This article is a decent start, though I could provide some other stuff if I looked it up. N=1 and all, but personally I've never had any problems cutting carbs out of the post-workout window.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ditch_post_workout_carbs.htm

Good chance some users will flip out at this heresy, but I haven't seen a whole lot convincing me otherwise.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I've never used any insulin mimickers as I'm just not sure I love the science behind them. If you have the product though go for it.

I just wanted to highlight that I think what I quoted is 100% true. Personally I think a lot of the magic window type stuff was created by supplement companies to sell products. I'm low carb pretty much year round as well and while if I AM getting carbs in I like to do it in the range of the workout area, I certainly don't think it is necessary.

This article is a decent start, though I could provide some other stuff if I looked it up. N=1 and all, but personally I've never had any problems cutting carbs out of the post-workout window.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ditch_post_workout_carbs.htm

Good chance some users will flip out at this heresy, but I haven't seen a whole lot convincing me otherwise.

I agree with your point. But that article makes me regret my existence more and more with each paragraph i read.

 

[Rodja]

I've never used any insulin mimickers as I'm just not sure I love the science behind them. If you have the product though go for it.

I just wanted to highlight that I think what I quoted is 100% true. Personally I think a lot of the magic window type stuff was created by supplement companies to sell products. I'm low carb pretty much year round as well and while if I AM getting carbs in I like to do it in the range of the workout area, I certainly don't think it is necessary.

This article is a decent start, though I could provide some other stuff if I looked it up. N=1 and all, but personally I've never had any problems cutting carbs out of the post-workout window.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ditch_post_workout_carbs.htm

Good chance some users will flip out at this heresy, but I haven't seen a whole lot convincing me otherwise.

That whole "magic window" thing came from a dude that pretty much holds my academic life in his hands: Dr. John Ivy.

 

[Milas]

Insulin is a pretty important hormone for anabolism, I wouldn't discount it as minutia. Exogenous insulin will produce much more significant results than a mimicker or natural secretion, but many don't want to go there for some very good reasons.

Like all supplements, mimickers are not necessary, but if used properly can give you an edge. Stuff like Na-R-ALA are goodness all around, though other ingredients can cause issues (berberine for example blocks protein synthesis and increases degradation, and gives a lot of people IBS). You're not going to get huge differences unless you really follow a protocol consistently over time, and even then the marginal difference may not be appreciable as if you were to just focus on diet and training (outside of real gear and insulin).

That being said, Na-R-ALA is a wonderful ingredient to use for it's general health benefits that is also an insulin mimicker.

 

[kingdong]

My understanding is that these open the muscle cell, and to some extent the fat cell, so they can get the eeded nutrients with less insulin being produced, so you can keep body fat a lttle lower.

 

[seccsi]

That whole "magic window" thing came from a dude that pretty much holds my academic life in his hands: Dr. John Ivy.

Well I don't mean to drag down your mentor, but I still haven't seen much proof that says otherwise. A lot of the "reasoning" people use that say you need to do X, X, X immediately after your workout has been debunked by science or never was supported by good science. I don't know specifically what Ivy recommends so I can't comment on that, but I know most of the conventional wisdom people used/still follow postworkout is pretty shaky at best.

 

[seccsi]

I agree with your point. But that article makes me regret my existence more and more with each paragraph i read.

Agreed, but it worked for a quick google search. I didn't feel like looking things up on Pubmed. The point still largely stands that carbs are either unnecessary post-workout or at best greatly overrated.

 

[Rodja]

Well I don't mean to drag down your mentor, but I still haven't seen much proof that says otherwise. A lot of the "reasoning" people use that say you need to do X, X, X immediately after your workout has been debunked by science.

It's more that his research has been taken out of context and applied to BB'ing when it's meant for endurance athletes.

 

[seccsi]

It's more that his research has been taken out of context and applied to BB'ing when it's meant for endurance athletes.

Makes sense. I figured it had been twisted in some way. Broscience tends to do that

 

[criticalbench]

People say spiking your insulin is a myth with high gi carbs.. but for me.. it couldn't be more far from the truth. My best gains have always came that way and I have trialed may different options over the years. Nothing compares imo.

Mike

 

[AutoKal47]

Yesterday I went for the refeed, started at 2pm after chest day.
The wo itself was great, I went up again with the weights
(i don't know what's happening to me, my strength is up to the roof, it has been like this for the past 2 weeks,
I load more every session, it's pretty awesome)

Refeed has been done this way:
I kept protein to about 1g x pound, maybe it ended up being a bit less than that at the end of the day.
Carbs: 120gr of potatoes, 80gr of beans, 100 of oats spread thru the day, so overall about 300gr of carbs
(including the pwo shaker/meal)
Fats: only the ones contained in the oats/beans/potatoes

Nothing was added to the food, no oil, no salt, no anything (it was like eating cardboard the whole day,
but I never have time to cook)

No Glycobol (since the mofo is taking forever to get here) but I am/have been using Anabeta, which is suppose
to have some sort of partitioning effect.. anyways:

This morning I feel like a$$, I feel tired and bloated, and feel like I wanna throw up :/
I look exactly the same as yesterday of course, but I really feel bad and gods know I did
a clean refeed.
Last night I also had hard time falling asleep despite I stopped eating way before going to bed

Psychologically I feel like I "have to clean my system" but that's most likely paranoia,
altho' I learned to follow my instinct and what my body tells me and it usually works.

Carbs just don't seem to do for me, maybe like Whacked suggested,
I should just do a refeed with some healthy fats and protein instead of carbs.

This was the first time in *years* that I ate this much, and this much carbs so maybe
I need to get used to it, I'll try next week again if I'll still feel this way I will try the other way,
if that won't be good either, well, I will keep doing what I was doing so far and forget
about the refeed I guess.

I'm about to wo now so I'll see if there's any change in strength and/or resistance,
definitely nausea ain't a good start.. :no:

 

[Whacked]

LOL - brother, you went way too high on the carbs for someone who's body has been rigidly reprogrammed not to allow for such carbs loads. You have to start out MUCH lower!

I've been in your shoes so here's what I suggest. Return immediately to your low carb state. Let the carbs burn off and concommittant water weight from the carbs dissipate. Then try again with a much smaller carb load.

When I cheat, I eat clean CRAP foods (no grease/restaurant/fast food crap, just yumminess mader at home like home made pizzas and sandwhiches). I mention this b/c these type of foods (fat and protein and fiber content is significant) will slow down this carbohydrate-insulin surge and result in a delayed gastric response, slower digestion and therefore blunted insulin release.

Carbs = increased glycogen storage and water weight, not bodyfat (when your carb stores are depleted anyway), so don't let the body play games with your mind. Use your cheats for SANITY (healthy/optimal leptin and thyroid levels). Enjoy a meal or two that has multifacted macro's (fats/carbs/protein/and fiber if possible). PURE CARB UPS for a guy like you will be less satisfying, more risky/more disaterous as you've described and increase sugar cravings if not careful (sugar-insulin rollar coaster ride).

When I am really trying to cut bodyfat, I will eat much cleaner. Opting for carb/fiber sources like Ezekial bread and the lower carb version from Trader Joes (7-grain sprouted grains). Literally eating 1/2 a loaf toasting it and smothering it in butter or making grilled chz sandwiches. Tons of fiber. I get a nice rounded muscle belly fullness and zero guy bloat. I manage dietary fats extremely well though. Some of my other cheats are as retarded as eating an entire bag of raw cashews from Trader Joes (2500 calorioes of fat/protein and carbs). I barely notice any bloat or water weight, just increased muscle volume (water/glycogen) and pumps the next 1-2 days of training. Talk about having your cake and eating it too!

I'm as ridiculous abou carbs as you so I feel ya buddy. Good luck.

 

[AutoKal47]

Thanks mate,

I will def follow the advice. And you're perfectly right, is not that I enjoyed the meals at all
I forced myself to eat that much on the first place, had very hard time digesting everything
and actually missed my chicken and my proteins.. Not a happy day.
My wo today was good enough tho' but didn't have any increase in strength or resistance as
I see people mentioning when refeeding, actually in the first 20 min I really had hard time not throwing up.
but then I got better and will myself to bust my own ass even more..

I'll give it another try next week, just adding something to ONE meal keeping macros, as you suggest, multifacted.

I just hope I didn't f@ck up too much, I know my body comp won't change with 300gr of carbs,
but hell if it feels like it..

Glycobol got here, I wanna see if this does some good to me without changing the diet,
so I'm gonna use it with my biggest meal dosing it at 1 cap a day at the beginning.

Starving mode until I feel ok -_- ..'uck me sideways..

thanks Whacked

 

[SBT]

Insulin is a pretty important hormone for anabolism, I wouldn't discount it as minutia. Exogenous insulin will produce much more significant results than a mimicker or natural secretion, but many don't want to go there for some very good reasons.

Like all supplements, mimickers are not necessary, but if used properly can give you an edge. Stuff like Na-R-ALA are goodness all around, though other ingredients can cause issues (berberine for example blocks protein synthesis and increases degradation, and gives a lot of people IBS). You're not going to get huge differences unless you really follow a protocol consistently over time, and even then the marginal difference may not be appreciable as if you were to just focus on diet and training (outside of real gear and insulin).

That being said, Na-R-ALA is a wonderful ingredient to use for it's general health benefits that is also an insulin mimicker.

Very well said!! All that = NUTRIENT REPARTIONING FTW!!!!

 

[BigBlackGuy]

My carbless (or very low carb, maybe 2-4 grams with the MAP) is two scoops of Maximum Absorbed Protein (20 grams of protein, tri peptides and di peptides, so small and faster absorbed than whole proteins) and 2 scoops of ibcaa (10 grams of BCAA total). This will elicit a spike in insulin, but it won't be a maintained elevation like with carbohydrates. I often feel hypoglycemic afterward as I'm already eating very low carb.

 

[AutoKal47]

My carbless (or very low carb, maybe 2-4 grams with the MAP) is two scoops of Maximum Absorbed Protein (20 grams of protein, tri peptides and di peptides, so small and faster absorbed than whole proteins) and 2 scoops of ibcaa (10 grams of BCAA total). This will elicit a spike in insulin, but it won't be a maintained elevation like with carbohydrates. I often feel hypoglycemic afterward as I'm already eating very low carb.

It's the same for me, I crash after my pwo shaker/bowl
with whey and carbs. I don't just feel hypo, I *ruin* on the couch
or bed for like 20 minutes.

My total carbs for the day is usually 30/50gr,
where 20 of them are the dry oats i put into the
pwo whey, well to be honest so far I was using
also some breakfast cereals with it, because of the
high GI thing and also for the taste.
So those 20gr cho were split between oats and the cereals (no fats, low protein, high carbs)

Now I cut the cereals, and go only with whey & oats (+bcaa and creatine)

Days off, there's no pwo bowl so cho are cut to half

 

[Austin118]

I was going to say doesn't your skin suffer from being on low carbs for so long? My skin went to crap obviously from not getting enough nutrients and being on low carb too long

 

[AutoKal47]

I was going to say doesn't your skin suffer from being on low carbs for so long? My skin went to crap obviously from not getting enough nutrients and being on low carb too long

Hey Austin,

don't know maybe I'm lucky but no, I've never experiences any skin problems, no acne, no dry skin, nothing really.
Maybe has something to do with the fact I drink *a lot* of water

 

[Whacked]

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more with your logic.

My complexion never looked better from ditching the garbage carbs and especially the refined sugars/simple AND adding a crap ton + variety of healthy fats and oils, I have a bronzy/glowing complexion now. No more dry skin OR chapped lips. Wife went from trying to buy me "products" all the time to telling me she is jealous of my skin.


PS: Anyone on these forums spending money on ergogenic supps but neglecting vital and essential nutrients and vitamins/minerals and a wide array of anti-oxidants is being foolish. .

I was going to say doesn't your skin suffer from being on low carbs for so long? My skin went to crap obviously from not getting enough nutrients and being on low carb too long

 

[Austin118]

Good to know that it's working better for you guys! wish it did for me but I guess everyones different!

 

[Milas]

PS: Anyone on these forums spending money on ergogenic supps but neglecting vital and essential nutrients and vitamins/minerals and a wide array of anti-oxidants is being foolish. .

Do you use a greens supplement or juice? Probiotic/prebiotic, enzymes, greens, spirulina, etc?

 

[AutoKal47]

Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more with your logic.

My complexion never looked better from ditching the garbage carbs and especially the refined sugars/simple AND adding a crap ton + variety of healthy fats and oils, I have a bronzy/glowing complexion now. No more dry skin OR chapped lips. Wife went from trying to buy me "products" all the time to telling me she is jealous of my skin.


PS: Anyone on these forums spending money on ergogenic supps but neglecting vital and essential nutrients and vitamins/minerals and a wide array of anti-oxidants is being foolish. .

Yep, same here
Multi and fish oil/omega here since day one and never stop taking those

 

[AutoKal47]

Just wanted to say that this is the second day
I've completely cut sugars from my pwo shake/meal (before I was going 10gr of oats and 10gr of cereals
which were 40% sugar)which it wasn't much anyway but still..
I've never felt better and I'm not passing out no more after the meal

 

[AutoKal47]

double post sry

 

[Distilled Water]

Auto: Just keep doing exactly what youre doing as it's clearly working.

Play around with some additional calories for that additional mass you so desire. If you are paranoid about carbs as you've conveyed, perhaps adding lean protein sources or healthy fats as your sourses of calories is the most sensible approach for you.

Respectfully, don't get caught up with all thebro-logic minutia perpetrated on these forums. The body is much more complicated than to allow for such simplified narrow-viewed suggestions such as carb-timing and nutrient partitioners for someone who's already depleted of carbs. K.I.S.S. (In others, this might have some merit then again, iot might not).

Everyone will tell you what works for "them" or to pimp their line of products. The guru's named above are no doubt wise but similarly, their approach will not work for everyone no different than any other guru's with contrasting opinions.

At the end of the day, the additional calories will add weight. Keeping these additional calories clean and playiny around with the macro choices will allow you to discover what best works for you.

PS: I also subscribe to the BCAA discipline for multiple reasons. Works wonders for me as well especially noted when dieting or in a fasted state.

PSS: Like you, I do the maniac low carb things and it works for me very well. However, I cheat every 3rd of 4th day to ensure thyroid and leptin levels don't get wrecked and to maintain sanity. Ironically, this works very well to retain leannesss year round.

Im with him here. Ive been away from AM for some timer and wow, there is sooooooo much stuff out here. NBot saying its wrong just guys seem to mak things alot more complivatd than it needs to be KISS is the best advice.

I too am a Low-Carb guy. The only idea I would throw your way is on top of the increased calories from fat/protein, is to maybe add some WMS little by little post workout. I did this years ago on low carb and it worked well, mainly bc it was extra calories and I wasnt carbing up (didnt start that til recent and man does it help!)

I think i started with 25gr then went to 50, then 75, i capped it there because I was scared of adding too muhc bf but 25gr wms is an extra 100cals. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[AutoKal47]

Im with him here. Ive been away from AM for some timer and wow, there is sooooooo much stuff out here. NBot saying its wrong just guys seem to mak things alot more complivatd than it needs to be KISS is the best advice.

I too am a Low-Carb guy. The only idea I would throw your way is on top of the increased calories from fat/protein, is to maybe add some WMS little by little post workout. I did this years ago on low carb and it worked well, mainly bc it was extra calories and I wasnt carbing up (didnt start that til recent and man does it help!)

I think i started with 25gr then went to 50, then 75, i capped it there because I was scared of adding too muhc bf but 25gr wms is an extra 100cals. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Thanks man,
definitely, I think this is the best for me as well
To start, realizing the fast carbs are not needed pwo - at least for me - and most likely
damaging compared to complex ones is a step up. I hated the incredible crash I had before,
the last two days going for just why and (lil lol..) oats went great and I feel much better