Yohimbine HCI vs. Alpha-Yohimbine

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    Yohimbine HCI vs. Alpha-Yohimbine


    First, if your a rep and you have either of these ingredients in your product line I prefer you stay out of the discussion. I love you guys, but I do not want any reason to point biased opinion, although it may be totally honest and unbiased.

    Who has used both and which do you think is more effective. Priority of my interest is effectiveness, not alpha causes less sides for example so you prefer alpha.

    When Im talking about Yohimbine HCI, Im also asking for real dose experiences such as 15-20mg range per dose, I am not interested in 2.5 mg 2-4 times a day type doses.
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    Came in to recommend alpha-yohimbine. Saw that you don't want reps. Left sadly .
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Came in to recommend alpha-yohimbine. Saw that you don't want reps. Left sadly .
    Im going to kill myself Mr. Cooper!
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    Just use science.

    Rauwolscine = Alpha-yohimbine

    Here's the problem: While antagonizing alpha 2-adrenoceptors is great and the purpose of both alpha-Y and Y, yohimbine unfortunately also does the same for alpha 1-adrenoceptors and this can actually hinder lipolysis. It also is the culprit for the nasty side effects

    So, while yohimbine helps to improve lipolysis by antagonizing alpha 2-adrenoceptors, it may also prevent lipolysis from occurring by antagonizing alpha 1-adrenoceptors. Counter productive.

    Rauwolscine on the other hand, is just as potent at antagonizing alpha 2-adrenoceptors as yohimbine, yet it is 50 times less potent at alpha 1-adrenoceptors, making it much more selective and much less likely to reduce lipolysis by inhibiting alpha 1-adrenoceptor activity when compared to yohimbine.

    Rauwolscine is clearly the better choice. For a more in depth look at the science check out the references on: NEW Alpha-T2 | Physique Enhancing Science.


    Perry BD, U'Prichard DC. [3H]rauwolscine (alpha-yohimbine): a specific antagonist radioligand for brain alpha 2-adrenergic receptors. Eur J Pharmacol. 1981 Dec 17;76(4):461-464

    Flechtner-Mors M, Jenkinson CP, Alt A, et al. In vivo alpha(1)-adrenergic lipolytic activity in subcutaneous adipose tissue of obese subjects. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2002 Apr;301(1):229-233


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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    Just use science.

    Rauwolscine = Alpha-yohimbine

    Here's the problem: While antagonizing alpha 2-adrenoceptors is great and the purpose of both alpha-Y and Y, yohimbine unfortunately also does the same for alpha 1-adrenoceptors – and this can actually hinder lipolysis. It also is the culprit for the nasty side effects

    So, while yohimbine helps to improve lipolysis by antagonizing alpha 2-adrenoceptors, it may also prevent lipolysis from occurring by antagonizing alpha 1-adrenoceptors. Counter productive.

    Rauwolscine on the other hand, is just as potent at antagonizing alpha 2-adrenoceptors as yohimbine, yet it is 50 times less potent at alpha 1-adrenoceptors, making it much more selective and much less likely to reduce lipolysis by inhibiting alpha 1-adrenoceptor activity when compared to yohimbine.

    Rauwolscine is clearly the better choice. For a more in depth look at the science check out the references on: NEW Alpha-T2 | Physique Enhancing Science.


    Perry BD, U'Prichard DC. [3H]rauwolscine (alpha-yohimbine): a specific antagonist radioligand for brain alpha 2-adrenergic receptors. Eur J Pharmacol. 1981 Dec 17;76(4):461-464

    Flechtner-Mors M, Jenkinson CP, Alt A, et al. In vivo alpha(1)-adrenergic lipolytic activity in subcutaneous adipose tissue of obese subjects. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2002 Apr;301(1):229-233


    Dont complain that I am a rep...I am just bringing the science
    I forgot to say company owners too, lol

    I was just interesting in hearing personal Anecdotal experiences actually especially w/ those that used 15+mg of HCI, but I do love you Natty and AlphaT2 does kick ass but that wasnt what Im looking for.

    Also Im trying to figure out why I cant find any info on Lyle McDonald considering alpha over hci.
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    I think people get 15+mg when they combine 2 AT2 with 1 OEP

    Yohimbine will still give an effect. People like it topically a lot

    But good luck taking 15mg regular Y
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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    I think people get 15+mg when they combine 2 AT2 with 1 OEP

    Yohimbine will still give an effect. People like it topically a lot

    But good luck taking 15mg regular Y
    15mg-20mg is quite simple, 6-8 caps of the SNS Yohimbine HCI does it. No luck needed my friend. You have to work your way up.

    I wouldnt mind hearing 15mg of alpha vs. 15-20mg hci experiences, but I also need real world experiences (thats not a knock on science).
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    Ah I always forget you are Dr. Mega Dose lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    Ah I always forget you are Dr. Mega Dose lol
    Yeah, lol

    Ive been reading several Lyle McDonald keto books, and this is a suggested protocol for HCI to work well. Anything less than that is typically ineffective. I dont consider this a Dr. Megadose situation on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyle McDonald
    Dosing of yohimbe

    The optimal dose of yohimbe is thought to be 0.2 milligrams of active ingredient/kilogram of
    bodyweight (2,24,25). Thus a 68 kilogram individual (150 lbs) would require 13 milligrams to
    increase fat breakdown. Individuals should start with a lower dosage to assess their tolerance
    and increase dosage only when no negative heart rate or blood pressure responses occur.
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    His sources, I should post that too.

    2. Lafontan M and Berlan M. Fat cell alpha-2 adrenoreceptors: The regulation of fat cell function
    and lipolysis. Endocrine Rev (1995) 16: 716-738.
    24. Berlan M et. al. Plasma catecholamine levels and lipid mobilization induced by yohimbine in
    obese and non-obese women. Int J Obes (1991) 15: 303-315.
    25. Galitzky, J et. al. Alpha-2 antagonist compounds and lipid mobilization: evidence for a lipid
    mobilizing effect of oral yohimbine in healthy male volunteers. Eur J Clin Invest (1988)
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    ax1, understand this. A-yohimbine may not be much better than yhcl at stimulating lipolysis, but regardless of what your threshold of tolerance for yhcl is, you will be able to use a higher dose with a-yohimbine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    ax1, understand this. A-yohimbine may not be much better than yhcl at stimulating lipolysis, but regardless of what your threshold of tolerance for yhcl is, you will be able to use a higher dose with a-yohimbine.
    Being able to dose AY higher doesnt exactly automatically equate to better effects in lipolysis. That is a consideration though to take account for. Any experiences, anyone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Being able to dose AY higher doesnt exactly automatically equate to better effects in lipolysis. That is a consideration though to take account for. Any experiences, anyone?
    You're right it doesn't, but it is highly likely.

    You will find very few anecdotes from people who have used both at length. I have used YHCl for SNS at 12g/day for 1 month. Currently on week 2 of Genomyx Alphaburn. I'll have an answer for your shortly. While I noticed no negative effects from YHCl, I am actually noticing positive effects (huge increase in libido) from A-Y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    You're right it doesn't, but it is highly likely.

    You will find very few anecdotes from people who have used both at length. I have used YHCl for SNS at 12g/day for 1 month. Currently on week 2 of Genomyx Alphaburn. I'll have an answer for your shortly. While I noticed no negative effects from YHCl, I am actually noticing positive effects (huge increase in libido) from A-Y.
    Ive used Alpha-burn, and AlphaT2, both a very good for sure. The last time I used straight yohimbe bark was 17 years ago, and the results were nothing short of phenomenal. Different time, different age of course. Amazing for stubborn bodyfat at that time.

    I already have HCI on the way (SNS of course ) so Ill find out first hand, I was curious to different personal experiences.

    What Im considering doing is running a Yohimbine HCI, AY, and EC stack in the future. EC will NEVER be dosed with regular yohimbine, 5 hours apart minimum. Y-HCI would be dose pre-workouts only with 200mg caffeine, and on 2 seperate occasion Ill be dosing ECAlphaY. Of course, I will be monitoring myself taking precautionary measures even when Im training to assess my tolerance levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    You're right it doesn't, but it is highly likely.

    You will find very few anecdotes from people who have used both at length. I have used YHCl for SNS at 12g/day for 1 month. Currently on week 2 of Genomyx Alphaburn. I'll have an answer for your shortly. While I noticed no negative effects from YHCl, I am actually noticing positive effects (huge increase in libido) from A-Y.
    Im assuming you meant 12mg of HCI. With a 12mg dose it seems that you cut yourself just a bit short in order to use Yohimbine optimally. That dose would be good for someone who is about 145 lbs.

    Also, you used 12mg spread, you would need 15mg or more in a single dose to optimally effect lipolysis with HCI according to Lyle McDonald. 12mg in a whole day is considerably short for real effectiveness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Im assuming you meant 12mg of HCI. With a 12mg dose it seems that you cut yourself just a bit short in order to use Yohimbine optimally. That dose would be good for someone who is about 145 lbs.

    Also, you used 12mg spread, you would need 15mg or more in a single dose to optimally effect lipolysis with HCI according to Lyle McDonald. 12mg in a whole day is considerably short for real effectiveness.
    Fully agree, but it was ECY, and you can never be too careful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Fully agree, but it was ECY, and you can never be too careful.
    Oh..then the high dose definitely not suggested. I wouldnt do that for sure either, unless the dose was 5 hours separate from the ephedrine dose, then you still need to monitor yourself.
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    I always thought the whole point was to increase norepinephrin, which will have yohimbine sides. Alpha-yohimbine just seems scammy to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingdong View Post
    I always thought the whole point was to increase norepinephrin, which will have yohimbine sides. Alpha-yohimbine just seems scammy to me.
    Yohimbine directly inhibits the effects of the alpha-2 receptors and also indirectly stimulate noradrenaline at the nerve endings.
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    Exactly. So what the hell is A-yohimbine doing that causes weightloss without the sides?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nattydisaster View Post
    Just use science.

    Here's the problem: While antagonizing alpha 2-adrenoceptors is great and the purpose of both alpha-Y and Y, yohimbine unfortunately also does the same for alpha 1-adrenoceptors – and this can actually hinder lipolysis. It also is the culprit for the nasty side effects

    So, while yohimbine helps to improve lipolysis by antagonizing alpha 2-adrenoceptors, it may also prevent lipolysis from occurring by antagonizing alpha 1-adrenoceptors. Counter productive.
    I have an issue with this claim and study. It does not provide research in training athletes using yohimbine hcl.

    Flechtner-Mors M, Jenkinson CP, Alt A, et al. In vivo alpha(1)-adrenergic lipolytic activity in subcutaneous adipose tissue of obese subjects. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2002 Apr;301(1):229-233
    http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/301/1/229.full

    Do you have anything else or anything more specific you can provide to support this kind of claim for training individuals?
    Last edited by ax1; 08-01-2011 at 06:33 PM.
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    I assume you mean Yohimbine HCL, never heard of the HCI version of it.

    My understanding of why Lyle isn't an AY fan is because there are virtually no studies that discuss its affect on performance athletes and he indicts most the studies done of Y's ineffectiveness noting that they were not in an insulin controlled environment which is obviously key to Y's effectiveness. I think he also thinks AY is way overpriced.

    Check out the soccer study done in 06 which indicated significant fat loss in athletes who dosed 20mgs of YHCL a day. Or check out the 02 study regarding Y's effectiveness as a fat loss agent when used PWO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvp View Post
    I assume you mean Yohimbine HCL, never heard of the HCI version of it.

    My understanding of why Lyle isn't an AY fan is because there are virtually no studies that discuss its affect on performance athletes and he indicts most the studies done of Y's ineffectiveness noting that they were not in an insulin controlled environment which is obviously key to Y's effectiveness. I think he also thinks AY is way overpriced.

    Check out the soccer study done in 09 which indicated significant fat loss in athletes who dosed 20mgs of YHCL a day. Or check out the 06 study regarding Y's effectiveness as a fat loss agent when used PWO.
    Soccer study was a good one. I have it printed here somewhere but if I remember correctly they lost approximately 2% bf, and they were already quite lean in terms of the general population (12%'ish).
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    Nice posts fellas! And yes I mean HCL, I have a habit of typing HCI, lol Thanks for pointing out that soccer study, havent seen it yet.

    Yohimbine: the effects on body composition and exercise performance in soccer players.

    Ostojic SM.
    Source

    Institute of Sports Medicine, Sports Academy, Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro. sergej@panet.co.yu

    Abstract

    The main aim of this study was to determine the effects of yohimbine supplementation on body composition and exercise performance in professional soccer players. The athletes (20 top-level male soccer players) were allocated to two randomly assigned trials. Subjects in the yohimbine group orally ingested tablets that contains yohimbine at a dose of 20 milligrams per day in two equal doses for 21 days. Subjects in the placebo group ingested an equal number of identical-looking pills that contained cellulose. There were no statistically significant changes in body mass and muscle mass within or between trials (p > 0.05) after the supplementation protocol. Percentage of body fat significantly decreased in the yohimbine group after the supplementation protocol (9.3 +/- 1.1 vs. 7.1 +/- 2.2%; p < 0.05). Furthermore, fat mass was significantly lower in the yohimbine versus placebo trial at postsupplementation assessment (7.1 +/- 2.2 vs. 9.2 +/- 1.9%; p < 0.05). There were no changes in exercise performance indicators (bench and leg press, vertical jump, dribble and power test results, shuttle run) within or between. trials (p > 0.05). No subject reported any side effects from yohimbine. The results of the current study indicate that supplementation with yohimbine combined with resistance training does not significantly alter the body mass, muscle mass, or performance indicators in professional soccer players. Nonetheless, yohimbine supplementation appears to be suitable as a fat loss strategy in elite athletes.

    PMID:17214405 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17214405
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    Med Hypotheses. 2002 Jun;58(6):491-5.

    Pre-exercise administration of yohimbine may enhance the efficacy of exercise training as a fat loss strategy by boosting lipolysis.

    McCarty MF.
    Source

    Pantox Laboratories, California 92109, USA.

    Abstract

    The natural alpha-2 antagonist yohimbine promotes sympathetic activity by central as well as peripheral mechanisms, and yet in moderate doses dose not usually raise heart rate, increase blood pressure, or induce anxiety (in contrast to sympathomimetic drugs such as ephedrine). Administered prior to exercise, it boosts lipolysis and serum FFA levels both during and following exercise; blockade of adipocyte alpha-2 adrenoreceptors makes at least a modest contribution to this pro-lipolytic activity. These considerations suggest that pre-exercise administration of yohimbine will lower the respiratory quotient during and following exercise, thus promoting fat loss. Since yohimbine can potentiate postprandial insulin secretion, its bariatric benefits should be greatest if administered on a schedule that minimizes postprandial yohimbine activity. A possible synergism of yohimbine and caffeine should be explored. Pre-exercise yohimbine administration has the potential to down-regulate the lipoprotein lipase activity of visceral adipocytes, increase lipolysis in refractory gynoid fat depots, and improve the impaired lipolytic response to exercise in the elderly.

    PMID:12323115 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323115
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    Most interesting aspect of the soccer study, to me, is that it would seem to imply that the fat loss derived from the yohimbine was largely not catabolic.
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    Im trying to think on how I will dose my yohimbine. If I dose it first thing in the morning with a caffeine cap, the caffeine cap will cause me to feel heavily nauseated and dizzy.

    If I drink coffee with half and half and take yohimbine with that, Ill feel fine, but Im worried about any potential insulin spike the half and half will give me which will negate the effects of yohimbine. Thoughts anyone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Im trying to think on how I will dose my yohimbine. If I dose it first thing in the morning with a caffeine cap, the caffeine cap will cause me to feel heavily nauseated and dizzy.

    If I drink coffee with half and half and take yohimbine with that, Ill feel fine, but Im worried about any potential insulin spike the half and half will give me which will negate the effects of yohimbine. Thoughts anyone?
    Found a LM post to this, what is he referring to with the letters "ASP"?

    Quote Originally Posted by lylemcd
    Fat still inhibits fat mobilization through ASP

    FASTED. NO FOOD. THAT'S WHAT FASTED FREAKING MEANS.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Found a LM post to this, what is he referring to with the letters "ASP"?

    Acylation stimulating protein

    http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/archi...hp?t-4776.html
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    Anybody else have anything to contribute to the discussion here?

    Again, please no rep pimping pollution here the way it happened yesterday.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvp View Post
    Most interesting aspect of the soccer study, to me, is that it would seem to imply that the fat loss derived from the yohimbine was largely not catabolic.
    Another aspect to consider, Yohimbine builds up in tissues, 3 weeks is a fairly good but short cycle. Although effectivness of yohimbine were shown to be dramatic at 3 weeks in those soccer players, imagine what the results would have registered at the 6 week mark.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    I wouldnt mind hearing 15mg of alpha vs. 15-20mg hci experiences, but I also need real world experiences (thats not a knock on science).
    I've dosed in those ranges, and had more of a thermogenic feel from the alpha. Of course, not like either was used entirely with nothing else so making fat loss claims for one vs the other is iffy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I've dosed in those ranges, and had more of a thermogenic feel from the alpha. Of course, not like either was used entirely with nothing else so making fat loss claims for one vs the other is iffy.
    In your personal experience with yohimbine, did you use the product in a fasting state and train shortly afterwards?
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    In your personal experience with yohimbine, did you use the product in a fasting state and train shortly afterwards?
    I used it fasted in the morning then cardio, at the time I was doing my workouts later in the day. I probably could stand to try it again since I workout fasted now.
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    AX1 are you intending to use bulk AY or a product with AY in it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvp View Post
    AX1 are you intending to use bulk AY or a product with AY in it?
    Actually, Im planning on running yohimbine HcL. I ordered 4 bottles and should be here any day now. I ran yohimbine bark with great success in the past, but that was 17 years ago so I want to get back to my roots. HCL would be superior and cleaner with less sides than bark.

    In regards to Alpha-Yohimbine I have used capped Alpha-burn and AlphaT2 (which is a formula.)

    Im not too crazy with bulk powders, Id rather pay more money for convenience most of the time. Id be very careful with bulk yohimbine products, make sure you have an accurate scale.

    Do you have any more questions?
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Oh..then the high dose definitely not suggested. I wouldnt do that for sure either, unless the dose was 5 hours separate from the ephedrine dose, then you still need to monitor yourself.
    What you mean by "monitor yourself", Im fairly new to the whole supplement world..

    check blood pressure?

    What are the sides you don't want that Yohimbine can bring?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocaine4PWO View Post
    What you mean by "monitor yourself", Im fairly new to the whole supplement world..

    check blood pressure?

    What are the sides you don't want that Yohimbine can bring?
    Well, first of all you want Yohimbine HCL as it is significantly cleaner than Yohimbine bark, plus you will know exactly how much of the active your getting.

    2nd, some people may be a bit more sensitive than others to Yohimbine. You want to start low dose to assess tolerance. At this stage you should be set. If you can check your bloodpressure at the gym or pharmacy while on yohimbine do so just so you know.

    The issue here is stacking yohimbine and ephedrine, this is HIGHLY not suggested. in the case of ephedrine, best to use alpha-yohimbine if one must stack, but I have a feeling yohimbine HCl is a whole different ball game worth running on its own with just caffeine and 1-3gr tyrosine in a fasting state and doing cardio/aerobic weight training.

    Another note, those prone to anxiety issues may be sensitive to yohimbine.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Res Sports Med. 2006 Oct-Dec;14(4):289-99.
    Yohimbine: the effects on body composition and exercise performance in soccer players.
    Ostojic SM.
    Source
    Institute of Sports Medicine, Sports Academy, Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro. sergej@panet.co.yu
    Abstract
    The main aim of this study was to determine the effects of yohimbine supplementation on body composition and exercise performance in professional soccer players. The athletes (20 top-level male soccer players) were allocated to two randomly assigned trials. Subjects in the yohimbine group orally ingested tablets that contains yohimbine at a dose of 20 milligrams per day in two equal doses for 21 days. Subjects in the placebo group ingested an equal number of identical-looking pills that contained cellulose. There were no statistically significant changes in body mass and muscle mass within or between trials (p > 0.05) after the supplementation protocol. Percentage of body fat significantly decreased in the yohimbine group after the supplementation protocol (9.3 +/- 1.1 vs. 7.1 +/- 2.2%; p < 0.05). Furthermore, fat mass was significantly lower in the yohimbine versus placebo trial at postsupplementation assessment (7.1 +/- 2.2 vs. 9.2 +/- 1.9%; p < 0.05). There were no changes in exercise performance indicators (bench and leg press, vertical jump, dribble and power test results, shuttle run) within or between. trials (p > 0.05). No subject reported any side effects from yohimbine. The results of the current study indicate that supplementation with yohimbine combined with resistance training does not significantly alter the body mass, muscle mass, or performance indicators in professional soccer players. Nonetheless, yohimbine supplementation appears to be suitable as a fat loss strategy in elite athletes.

    PMID: 17214405 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



    I also thought this would be good to share. Found it on the Leangains.com website. He is known for not BSing and is not part of a company selling any such product.

    Important: Keep in mind that insulin negates the effects of yohimbine on alpha 2-receptor inhibition. Always take it in the fasted state and never between meals. Considering the half-life of yohimbine is very short (30 min), you can also experiment with more frequent dosing during the fast. For example, three dosages taken every second hour until your first meal. In that case I would probably not recommend starting with 0.2 mg/kg, since there will be a gradual buildup of the active compound. 0.15 mg/kg is a better starting point for multiple dosages in a relatively short time frame (every second hour).
    :blindfold:
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    Quote Originally Posted by monstermash View Post

    Important: Keep in mind that insulin negates the effects of yohimbine on alpha 2-receptor inhibition. Always take it in the fasted state and never between meals. Considering the half-life of yohimbine is very short (30 min), you can also experiment with more frequent dosing during the fast. For example, three dosages taken every second hour until your first meal. In that case I would probably not recommend starting with 0.2 mg/kg, since there will be a gradual buildup of the active compound. 0.15 mg/kg is a better starting point for multiple dosages in a relatively short time frame (every second hour).
    Lyle McDonald suggests a full dosage 30 minutes prior to cardio or aerobic lifting for maximal results. This is a great way to rid of stubborn bodyfat.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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