My main question is how much muscle catabolism can you expect from each either by themselves or together. I would much rather take the time and diet harder if its going to mean less muscle loss. I am basically looking for people who have attained very low body fat(preferably competitive bodybuilders) both without using either, using one or the other, or using both and can maybe compare the amount of muscle catabolism experienced. I have never used either when getting ready for a show because of the fear of muscle catabolism but if it would not be much different than not using them while making it easier to get in shape then I would consider using them.