Do I need to cycle Melatonin?

[Whacked]

Finally, something that works for me for sleep!!

Do I have to cycle this stuff of take 1-2 days off per week?

I'm in my 40's

[sarguy]

I work as a sleep tech, and I've never heard of any recommendations for cycling melatonin as far as sleep is concerned.

[Whacked]

HOLY COW man, your experience will lend itself invaluably here on these boards. I would GUESS that up to 50% of the members here have sleep issues!!!!!!!!

Perhaps you can write a comprehensive intelligent "from my experience" type post/thread hinting at ALL things thast actually work for all of us. That would be HUGE

[sarguy]

Really?

[Whacked]

Dead serious. We all have sleep issues around here! LOL

No clue what the relationship is between bb'ers and sleep issues but there is certainly SOMETHING to it!

[sarguy]

Ok then! You'll have to pardon my suspicion; some of the other boards I'm on are loaded with sarcastic a-holes. I would be glad to start delving into some of the popular sleep aides and trends in sleep health. As far as "my experience" with things, sleep is so darn subjective, what works for some people may not work for others.

[Whacked]

Zero sarcasm, 100% desperation

Thanks!

[sarguy]

Hope I can help. For starters, do you snore? What are your bedroom conditions, time of sleep/wake, pre-bed diet, and supplementation like?

Melatoin, btw, is a hormone secreted by the pineal gland,and constant exposure to light has been found to decrease production of melatonin. Which, of course means, that spending time in bright light prior to bed is counterproductive as far as sleep is concerned. Behaviorially, dimming the lights in the evening and avoiding tv and computer screens before bed might help increase melatonin secretion (I think). If they fail to actually boost melatonin levels, I do know that the above mentioned light sources contain wavelengths of light that are actually alerting in nature, which is exactly what you don't want for good sleep. Sleeping/ falling asleep with the tv on is not advised, obviously. A book is your best friend if you're dying for pre-bed entertainment.

Oh, and some other questions: What do you do for a living? Do you sleep alone or w/ a partner? Pets? Allergies? Bedroom location?

[JN230]

Hope I can help. For starters, do you snore? What are your bedroom conditions, time of sleep/wake, pre-bed diet, and supplementation like?

Melatoin, btw, is a hormone secreted by the pineal gland,and constant exposure to light has been found to decrease production of melatonin. Which, of course means, that spending time in bright light prior to bed is counterproductive as far as sleep is concerned. Behaviorially, dimming the lights in the evening and avoiding tv and computer screens before bed might help increase melatonin secretion (I think). If they fail to actually boost melatonin levels, I do know that the above mentioned light sources contain wavelengths of light that are actually alerting in nature, which is exactly what you don't want for good sleep. Sleeping/ falling asleep with the tv on is not advised, obviously. A book is your best friend if you're dying for pre-bed entertainment.

Oh, and some other questions: What do you do for a living? Do you sleep alone or w/ a partner? Pets? Allergies? Bedroom location?

ahhh the man i needed to talk to... i have a 7yr old that lives 50% of the time with us, he is scared of the dark obviously and is getting his own rom again for the first time in a few months, he is very used to snuggling with his mom at night when he stays over. we have a body pillow that was his moms so it smells like her, we gave that to him hoping it wil feel like he is cuddling with her, also we put in a night light but it isnt very bright for him, right now he sleeps with teh bathroom light on which is 2 CFL around 100W each, and is about 6ft from his head, and around a corner so it isnt too bright, we have a standing lamp that has a flexible lamp on it as well, we were thinking of leaving the flexible lamp on shinning in his closet which faces away from him, what type of light bulb is best for making him not scared of the dark but wont interfere with his hormones for sleep.

also opinions on Calms Forte 4kids?
you are a savior man, seriously id say 90% of americans have sleep problems. my dad has sleep apnea knows it but wont treat it! grrawh!!!!

[sarguy]

I just got home from class and need to catch some sleep myself before I work tonight @ sleep lab. I'll look into the calms forte and some of the other above mentioned issues tonight.

*disclaimer, I'm not a doc, just an individual working the field of sleep medicine. Anything I say isn't formal medical advice, just my interpretation of the professional literature and my own crazy machinations.

[Whacked]

Thanks for the disclaimer.

Still, we are all looking forward to your input

[sarguy]

ahhh the man i needed to talk to... i have a 7yr old that lives 50% of the time with us, he is scared of the dark obviously and is getting his own rom again for the first time in a few months, he is very used to snuggling with his mom at night when he stays over. we have a body pillow that was his moms so it smells like her, we gave that to him hoping it wil feel like he is cuddling with her, also we put in a night light but it isnt very bright for him, right now he sleeps with teh bathroom light on which is 2 CFL around 100W each, and is about 6ft from his head, and around a corner so it isnt too bright, we have a standing lamp that has a flexible lamp on it as well, we were thinking of leaving the flexible lamp on shinning in his closet which faces away from him, what type of light bulb is best for making him not scared of the dark but wont interfere with his hormones for sleep.

also opinions on Calms Forte 4kids?
you are a savior man, seriously id say 90% of americans have sleep problems. my dad has sleep apnea knows it but wont treat it! grrawh!!!!

As for the nightlights, that is a pretty bright source of light, even indirectly. You might try a nightlight in a soft yellow, orange, or red, or even one of those kid's doo-dads (there's a sophisticated medical term) that cycles between several colors. I wonder if the repetition of the color cycle may actually help him sleep.

I looked into the calms forte. I nearly stopped when the word "homeopathic" came up. Not to turn this into a debate on the effectiveness of homeopathy, but I'm NOT a fan of it. Waste of money IMHO, but I don't think it will harm your child to try it, assuming they have no existing allergies to anything in the pills. There is at least one RCT I am aware of using small (0.05mg/kg) doses of melatonin in kids with some success, but I would be leery of starting kids on that without physician evaluation and the use of other behavioral modalities first.

Generally speaking, healthy kids probably don't have physiologic reason for insomnia. Rather, they are associated with psychological things ranging from pushing boundaries to the above-mentioned changing environments and separation from familiar sleep triggers.
Does Junior have an established bed-time routine? A nightly ritual consisting of the same events over and over can actually help initiate sleep. For instance: bath time, reading, and then bed. I'd avoid tv for the last hour prior to bed, and if he has one in his room, it's gotta go.
Back to that nightly routine. A lot of insomnia issues in kids, like I mentioned, are behavioral in nature, and seem to respond to behavioral interventions. In actuality, the nightly administration of a "sleeping pill" is not unlike other behavioral interventions, especially if the pill actually has no effect other than placebo.

I'm not a parent yet, and although I know that kids can be a bear to fight with when it comes to bedtime, the establishment of a regular bed time (hint: 10pm is way too late) helps to regulate the kids' circadian rhythm, and after the break-in period, it's much easier to initiate sleep in a timely manner, not to mention make waking up in the morning easier. Sleep deprivation in kids has also been linked to ADHD and obesity, and that's just what we're beginning to find out.

Hopefully my rantings make a bit of sense. In short, avoid the pills, find a softer light that's not white or blue, and establish a bedtime routine. Consult a physician if insomnia continues or if Junior snores horribly.

[BigBlackGuy]

This thread can turn legendary, real fast.

I snore and have sometimes found myself waking up due to my own snoring (as I'm falling asleep, not while I'm in deep sleep). My GF tells me that when I fall asleep I always snore, then I'll like choke on my own breath, and stop snoring for awhile.

I always have a dry mouth when I wakeup and always find myself breathing through my mouth.

Do I have sleep apnea? My neck is also 18".

[sarguy]

This thread can turn legendary, real fast.

I snore and have sometimes found myself waking up due to my own snoring (as I'm falling asleep, not while I'm in deep sleep). My GF tells me that when I fall asleep I always snore, then I'll like choke on my own breath, and stop snoring for awhile.

I always have a dry mouth when I wakeup and always find myself breathing through my mouth.

Do I have sleep apnea? My neck is also 18".

I'd be willing to put money it.

A thick neck like yours+witnessed apnea+snoring*= sleep study, dude. It could save your life, as untreated sleep apnea can lead to high blood pressure, stroke, heart attack and (shudder) IMPOTENCE due to constantly disturbing the levels of Test that are normally supposed to increase throughout the night as we sleep. That's right, sleep apnea messes w/ our test levels!

I have sleep apnea and wear a CPAP device to treat it. I swear I'd kill anyone who tried to take it from me. I had no clue I was so tired until after I started getting decent sleep.

*If you do happen to be a "Big Black Guy" in real life, I should also mention that African-Americans have an increased risk of sleep apnea 2ndary to craniofacial structure.

[Whacked]

yup!! lolol

sarguy-we love u

This thread can turn legendary, real fast.

[Whacked]

How in the heck did you ever get used to sleeping with that CPAP?

[JN230]

As for the nightlights, that is a pretty bright source of light, even indirectly. You might try a nightlight in a soft yellow, orange, or red, or even one of those kid's doo-dads (there's a sophisticated medical term) that cycles between several colors. I wonder if the repetition of the color cycle may actually help him sleep.

I looked into the calms forte. I nearly stopped when the word "homeopathic" came up. Not to turn this into a debate on the effectiveness of homeopathy, but I'm NOT a fan of it. Waste of money IMHO, but I don't think it will harm your child to try it, assuming they have no existing allergies to anything in the pills. There is at least one RCT I am aware of using small (0.05mg/kg) doses of melatonin in kids with some success, but I would be leery of starting kids on that without physician evaluation and the use of other behavioral modalities first.

Generally speaking, healthy kids probably don't have physiologic reason for insomnia. Rather, they are associated with psychological things ranging from pushing boundaries to the above-mentioned changing environments and separation from familiar sleep triggers.
Does Junior have an established bed-time routine? A nightly ritual consisting of the same events over and over can actually help initiate sleep. For instance: bath time, reading, and then bed. I'd avoid tv for the last hour prior to bed, and if he has one in his room, it's gotta go.
Back to that nightly routine. A lot of insomnia issues in kids, like I mentioned, are behavioral in nature, and seem to respond to behavioral interventions. In actuality, the nightly administration of a "sleeping pill" is not unlike other behavioral interventions, especially if the pill actually has no effect other than placebo. completely agreed, yes he has a bed time with us but no routine yet as i dont sleep over the nights he is home but we have a routine planned, basically story-time/cuddle time with mom while i shower at 830 everynight, then sleep at 845, he has a tv but hasnt even turned it on yet as its new to his room in the new house, and yes it is psychological for sure, jsut trying to avoid his crappy sleeping habits from messing up girlfriends and my sleeping habits as much as possible as sleep is very important to us both and we know that

I'm not a parent yet, and although I know that kids can be a bear to fight with when it comes to bedtime, the establishment of a regular bed time (hint: 10pm is way too late) helps to regulate the kids' circadian rhythm, and after the break-in period, it's much easier to initiate sleep in a timely manner, not to mention make waking up in the morning easier. Sleep deprivation in kids has also been linked to ADHD and obesity, and that's just what we're beginning to find out.

Hopefully my rantings make a bit of sense. In short, avoid the pills, find a softer light that's not white or blue, and establish a bedtime routine. Consult a physician if insomnia continues or if Junior snores horribly.

see the bold above as well as below...

i cant do a softer light as he'll be scared of the dark still thats my main issue....he has no insomnia its just he wants his mom and he needs to adjsut i was hoping to make the adjustment easier as i know its going to take a few months, but i dont want to throw our lives away for a few months if we dont have too.. y a know?

[Athletix]

Good thread, sleep hygiene is definitely key and sarguy has laid out the perfect groundwork, good job man.

Another thing to note is that there have been countless studies on melatonin, there is even a melatonin derivative on the pharmaceutical market now called ramelteon (rozerem), but most people take more than they need to. It is actually a pretty potent antioxidant but being in the medical field I always tell people that the lowest effective dose is the best, your body is incredible good at setting a new homeostatic set point. You only need about 600mcg (0.6mg) or less to get the same effect as 3mg. So honestly you could cut it into halves or quarters or buy the 1mg tablets.

Another good thing is to workout in the morning instead of evening if you can, it is hard to sleep in a hyper-inflammatory state with catecholamines such as adrenalin on the rise. You can try reading a book to help you and if you try sleeping and can't sleep, get up, go do something downstairs for a short bit and come back up and try sleeping again. Only use the bedroom for sleep and sex, don't use it for watching TV or other things as your body associates that incorrectly.

Good luck!

[sarguy]

How in the heck did you ever get used to sleeping with that CPAP?

It took me almost 3 months, but the newer masks are much more comfortable, IMHO. I was 22 when I was diagnosed, and was pretty resistant due to thinking the mask would be not "teh hawtness" for the ladies. I only persisted due to a a strong cardiac history in my family. Everything else was secondary at that point.

I was only getting a few hours a night before I'd take it off in my sleep, so I figured it wasn't working. Then I left town and didn't take my cpap with me. Sleeping without the mask, even though I was only getting maybe 3 hours of good sleep a night while using the mask, returned me to a state of feeling like hammered sh!t. I seriously had an "ah-ha" moment and realized that I was so tired for so long, I had no clue just how tired I was until I went back to feeling that way.

Nowadays, some drs will recommend that you wear the mask (just the mask) while doing other non-sleep activities. This helps your nerves habituate to it just like we do w/ glasses or a watch. Some docs also prescribe a few nights of low-dose ambien to help people get over the initial hump of sleeping w/ the mask.

[sarguy]

see the bold above as well as below...

i cant do a softer light as he'll be scared of the dark still thats my main issue....he has no insomnia its just he wants his mom and he needs to adjsut i was hoping to make the adjustment easier as i know its going to take a few months, but i dont want to throw our lives away for a few months if we dont have too.. y a know?

I certainly understand. My first thought is to keep up the bedtime routine and implement small, incremental changes over a couple of months.
1. Make sure the bulb is a warm color, not stark white, or blue/white/ "daylight" spectrum lights. Go w/ incandescent bulbs for this (this is important later).
2. Go ahead and get some sort of night-light anyway, and place it in the room. At this point, I'd have both the bright light on, as well as the night light.
3. Consider some age appropriate books about being afraid of the dark. I recall having a book about Franklin, a turtle who was so afraid of the dark, he was afraid to be inside his own shell. Not that we need to clobber the kid over the head with literature stating, "you don't need a bright light to sleep"; perhaps a different slant might help.
4. Switch the bright light to a lamp with a rheostat/dimmer or buy one to put on the desk lamp. After he's used to the new color bulb, gradually dim the light over the course of a few weeks. I wouldn't even mention it to him, and try to make the dimming so subtle that he doesn't notice. Hopefully a gradual shift will make the adoption of a softer light more palatable.

5. Another option to consider is giving him a flashlight to use in concert with a softer night light instead of having the really bright light illuminating his entire room. This would give him a "weapon" to use against the dark, so to speak.