Do I need to cycle Melatonin?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Ditto Ditto Ditto. Problems out the wazoo for me too. Oh well, gotta figure this crap out dang it!
    Indeed.. If you'll excuse me I have some reading to do lol

  2. Quote Originally Posted by sarguy View Post
    I certainly understand. My first thought is to keep up the bedtime routine and implement small, incremental changes over a couple of months.
    1. Make sure the bulb is a warm color, not stark white, or blue/white/ "daylight" spectrum lights. Go w/ incandescent bulbs for this (this is important later).
    2. Go ahead and get some sort of night-light anyway, and place it in the room. At this point, I'd have both the bright light on, as well as the night light.
    3. Consider some age appropriate books about being afraid of the dark. I recall having a book about Franklin, a turtle who was so afraid of the dark, he was afraid to be inside his own shell. Not that we need to clobber the kid over the head with literature stating, "you don't need a bright light to sleep"; perhaps a different slant might help.
    4. Switch the bright light to a lamp with a rheostat/dimmer or buy one to put on the desk lamp. After he's used to the new color bulb, gradually dim the light over the course of a few weeks. I wouldn't even mention it to him, and try to make the dimming so subtle that he doesn't notice. Hopefully a gradual shift will make the adoption of a softer light more palatable.

    5. Another option to consider is giving him a flashlight to use in concert with a softer night light instead of having the really bright light illuminating his entire room. This would give him a "weapon" to use against the dark, so to speak.
    holy crap you are a genius!!!!! my Gf loves that i get to talk to you about this and Frank too....

  3. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Ditto Ditto Ditto. Problems out the wazoo for me too. Oh well, gotta figure this crap out dang it!
    What's your sleep/wake schedule like? Pre-bed habits? Snoring? Creepy,crawly legs around bed time? stimulant timing? Bedroom evironment (light or dark, warm or cold)?

  4. Background
    5'11 220-225 (in my 40's)
    Low body fat (12%)
    Zero snoring
    Zero leg cramps/restless legs
    Weight Train and Cardio
    Stims at 6 AM only (upon rising) and train at 6:30 AM (M-Sat)
    Work from 9-6pm M-F
    Higher Protein/Lower Carb/Moderate Fat diet (no carbs past 6pm)
    Diet: Excellent/Clean (tons of greens and anti-oxidants)

    Sleep Schedule
    Eat Final Meal at 8pm (2 hours pre-bed)
    Get off Computer by 8pm
    Watch "boring news" TV or read a book until 10pm
    Go to bed at 10pm like clock-work
    Usually tired, but have a hard time "passing out", If I do, it takes 30-45 minutes.
    Also, if/when I do fall asleep, I wake up 3-5x thru the night
    Most of the time I fall right back to sleep (15 minutes?), some times I do not.

    Sleep Schedule/Hygeine
    Totally blacked out room
    Thermostat set to 60 degrees!
    Shower at 7pm so I go to bed clean
    White Noise Machine on low (blocks out noise)
    Significant Other sleeps in another bed at night so no issues there.

    Misc Notes
    Tried Hypnotic + Meditation audio CD (all garbage!)
    Tried HGH several times both in the AM and PM, both made my ability to fall asleep worse!

    Supps I've tried
    Melatonin: NON-time released versions: Sucked/Useless

    Melatonin TIME RELEASED: 3 mg's seem to help. Certainly not a cure for me!

    Now Foods Brand Night Time Herbs works well to assist me in falling asleep but I always wake up 2 hours later, so kind of counter productive (Valerian Root, Passion Flower, Hops)

    L-Trytophan: useless for me (even in high doses)
    Theanine: Does nothing to me, I can eat the whole bottle + my body laughs at it

    Gaba & Phenibut: Both made me wired/wide awake!

    USPLab's PowerFULL worked great for deep sleep for a year and then became useless
    ***Never had sleep issues before I started to use this stuff. I feel this wrecked something in me!

    My emergency go to drug is Benedryl and Nyquil. These work great for me with zero hangover; BUT, these are drugs, so I cannot use them regularly (unsafe). I probably "need" to pop these 3x/week on nights where I am still staring at the ceiling at midnight.
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7

  5. Interesting stuff.
    PHF Rep

  6. @whacked

    Hmmm...when you wake up during the night, do you find yourself short of breath at all?
    Do you ever have issues "shutting your mind off"? Is the bed a decent bed, or is it uncomfortable?
    Again, I'm no doctor, but my suspicion is leaning towards primary insomnia, which basically means there's a perfect storm of what's going on in your head, circadian rhythm, and body that ends up messing you over, especially if we begin worrying about the sleep we're not going to get (I've managed to do this very thing). Things such as ambien can work in the short term, but we worry about dependence. Do you have a history of shift work, or a family history of insomnia?

    If it was me, I'd experiment by rising a bit earlier than normal, just to see if we can't adjust your circadian phase forward some. A (more effective, imho) way to adjust the circadian rhythm is to stay up later and later each night, rising later and later each day, until you've gone all the way around the clock. The problem is, that takes at least 3-4 days to do that.

    Another thing I noticed is that you restrict your carbs after 6. A lot of people have reported poor-quality sleep 2nd to initiating a low carb diet. You might try adding some carbs in your last meal, just for a week or so, and see how it makes you feel.

    Would you consider yourself a "clock watcher"?

    There's a couple of devices out there, one of which is called the "nightwave" that uses pulses of blue (which I thought would be problematic) light to sync breathing, and another that uses a beam of light shined on the ceiling which you follow with your eyes to induce the "slow rolling eye movements" that are characteristic of entering sleep. The name of the machine fails me at the moment, but it's available in the UK, has NHS approval (no easy task) and is apparently more effective than sleep meds.
    (I actually have had luck telling patients who were having problems falling asleep to 'count sheep, and watch them jump over the fence', in order to get them to do the rolling, back-and-forth, eye movements. Seemed to work)

    Overall, I'd start keeping a sleep diary as you make changes to see what's working and what's not. If it persists, you may want to see about having a sleep study or an appointment w/ physchologist to rule out other things.

  7. Incredibly invaluable info here. You rock man. Will respond in better detail later. Thanks
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post

    How do you test the cardiac risk factors that are specific for sleep related disorders? Specifically, what is done, what tests are ordered?

    My blood tests and cardia enzymes come back normal. BUT I am not certain I requested the correct tests as I always simply do basic heart health blood studies along with my other interests (kidney, liver, lipid profile and prostate).
    The cardiac enzymes are only going to be indicative of cardiac necrosis so that won't tell you much honestly. They do those sorts of test after an MI (heart attack) so unless there is that necrotic tissue there isn't much there. I am not a sleep expert, I am in the general medical field, not a specialty so there may be a more indicative enzyme marker they are looking for but none that I know of for the heart other than troponin and CKB.
    Gain Strength. Add Lean Mass. Recover Faster. : ERGONINE


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