Avant Labs Lipoderm Ultra or Lipoderm-Y?

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    Avant Labs Lipoderm Ultra or Lipoderm-Y?


    I am looking for a targeted fat loss substance to reduce some unwanted chest fat. I found both of these products (Lipoderm Ultra and Lipoderm-Y) on the Black Star Labs website. I was wondering, what's the difference between the two of them? Which one is more effective? Are there any side-effects, and if so, what are they? Any help you can provide on this subject would be great. Thanks!

    http://www.blackstarlabs.com/?cPath=17

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    run a search here, or better yet, you will probably find more information running a search at the Avant Labs forum... although it won't be very biased most likely

    cm5
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    avant has a 20% off sale on a bunch of products right now. I think a bottle of lipoderm is $20 directly from the website right now, you should check it out.
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    Howdy folkses,

    Does anybody know if Lipoderm actually works?

    I just did a couple searches, neither of which succeeded in answering my question.

    Input appreciated.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Holmes; 06-29-2004 at 03:29 PM.
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    Lipoderm ultra is basically lipoderm-y with caffeine & other diuretics added & costs a lot more. Yohimbine causes local water retention & the diuretics counter that. The cheapest way to do it is get the lipoderm-y & add a few grams of caffeine powder yourself.

    I have used both & they work. I am usually pretty lean, they probably work better the more BF% you have. Works best with ECA or cutting supps & a calorie deficit, it will not work miracles with no change in diet, training, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holmes
    Howdy folkses,

    Does anybody know if Lipoderm actually works?

    I just did a couple searches, neither of which succeeded in answering my question.

    Input appreciated.

    Cheers!
    it works well, I've used it on my love handles, and my girlfriend has used it on her legs and it's worked well.
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    Thanks! This is good news, as I recently picked up a bottle of ultra.

    The only other concern I'd have is the potential effects on the liver. Any thoughts?
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    Yohimbine should not affect the liver at all.
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    i am currently doing an ECY stack where i take in 2.5-5g of Yohimbine HCL orally, if i decide to use one of the lipoderm products should i stop taking yohimbine orally?
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    Do you guys apply it pre workout too? Taking into account the 2 hour window. How do you know what to choose with lipoderm, lipoderm ultra, absolved etc on the market.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionel
    Do you guys apply it pre workout too? Taking into account the 2 hour window. How do you know what to choose with lipoderm, lipoderm ultra, absolved etc on the market.
    No, do not take it preworkout as the sweating caused by the WO will hinder the absorption of the product. As for which avant topical fat loss product to choose, ab-solved is best on VAT fat, which is the fat UNDER muscle.... look at my avatar, that guy could use some ab-solved. However the Lipo series is best when used for subQ fat, which isthe fat OVER muscle. Most chest fat, etc. falls into this category. So basically it depends on what type of fat you are trying to get rid of.

    Hope that helps.
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    WTF is that guy? Its sick.. is it really fat under muscle or a bloated gut? Yup, you did help. Thansk a lot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longdog
    get the lipoderm-y & add a few grams of caffeine powder yourself.
    This exactly what I have always done. Lipo-Y(beta) at the AL site is Lipo-Y + 4.5g C (was $20 when I got my stash).
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmarJackson
    i am currently doing an ECY stack where i take in 2.5-5g of Yohimbine HCL orally, if i decide to use one of the lipoderm products should i stop taking yohimbine orally?
    anyone know? im curious also
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    The caffeine in the Lipo-Y works as a local diuretic. The Y will often cause water retention in the area of application. The caffeine is intended to help reduce this. So as with the Y being local delivery and not systemic, the caffeine is as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longdog
    Lipoderm ultra is basically lipoderm-y with caffeine & other diuretics added & costs a lot more. Yohimbine causes local water retention & the diuretics counter that. The cheapest way to do it is get the lipoderm-y & add a few grams of caffeine powder yourself.

    I have used both & they work. I am usually pretty lean, they probably work better the more BF% you have. Works best with ECA or cutting supps & a calorie deficit, it will not work miracles with no change in diet, training, etc.
    I believe that they actually work better the leaner that you are.
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    I noticed some pretty significant systemic effects from Lipoderm Y. Then I added about 6-7 grams of caffeine and was flllyying. I find transdermal caffeine to be a rather nice stimulant. No jitters, just alertness for many hours.

    The mixture did seem to reduce sub Q fat when used with cardio.
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    Can you use Lipoderm and ab-solved together?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longdog
    Lipoderm ultra is basically lipoderm-y with caffeine & other diuretics added & costs a lot more. Yohimbine causes local water retention & the diuretics counter that. The cheapest way to do it is get the lipoderm-y & add a few grams of caffeine powder yourself.

    I have used both & they work. I am usually pretty lean, they probably work better the more BF% you have. Works best with ECA or cutting supps & a calorie deficit, it will not work miracles with no change in diet, training, etc.
    Interesting. I tried a homebrew and it didnt work at all.

    6 G yohimbine hcl
    2 grams caffeine
    benzyl alcohol
    acetone
    isopropanol
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    Can you use Lipoderm and ab-solved together?
    par said you shouldnt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge
    Interesting. I tried a homebrew and it didnt work at all.

    6 G yohimbine hcl
    2 grams caffeine
    benzyl alcohol
    acetone
    isopropanol
    No offense, but there is a whole lot more to the AL trandermal used in Lipo-Y than the ingredients you used.
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge
    par said you shouldnt.
    No, they should not be used simultaniously (read...applied on the same area) but they can be used alternately (read...switch one for the other).

    IOW use Y in the AM, and AB-Solved in the PM. Or Y one day and AB-Solved the next, rotating days. I use each, one week at a time. I find that every time I start up the AB-Solved again, it knocks another ~1/2" off my stomach/waist line. I always respond much better to AB-Solved than Lipo-Y.

    Also, keep in mind, Lipo-Y is not a "fat burner" but "fat mobilizer" where it frees the fat from the area of application to be used for fuel when in significant deficit. A very significant deficit (caloric/energy expenditure) is a necessity when using Lipo-Y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by b5150
    No offense, but there is a whole lot more to the AL trandermal used in Lipo-Y than the ingredients you used.
    No offense but I wasnt really planning to go and buy every single ingredient. Yohimbine is the main ingredient, caffeine is the diuretic.

    Nuff said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge
    No offense but I wasnt really planning to go and buy every single ingredient. Yohimbine is the main ingredient, caffeine is the diuretic.

    Nuff said.
    I understand your point. Keep in mind that Yohimbine and caffeine are the actives. My point is that unless you have a quality transdermal gel (a quality homebrew recipe or retail purchase) you will in no way get those actives to penetrate you skin properly or sufficiently to be effective. Furthermore if the transdermal is bogus than the effectiveness of the actives will be bogus as well...hence the potential for poor to no results.

    So as stated above, it may be best to buy the Lipo-Y and add the caffeine. Or for that matter Avant has their new Lipo-Y w/caffeine (beta) going to final and available at retailers very shortly. Might even be able to spike some more Y into it as well.
    Last edited by David Dunn; 08-01-2004 at 09:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by b5150
    I understand your point. Keep in mind that Yohimbine and caffeine are the actives. My point is that unless you have a quality transdermal gel (a quality homebrew recipe or retail purchase) you will in no way get those actives to penetrate you skin properly or sufficiently to be effective. Furthermore if the transdermal is bogus than the effectiveness of the actives will be bogus as well...hence the potential for poor to no results.

    So as stated above, it may be best to buy the Lipo-Y and add the caffeine. Or for that matter Avant has their new Lipo-Y w/caffeine (beta) going to final and available at retailers very shortly. Might even be able to spike some more Y into it as well.
    Ive read that its more than possible to add extra Y in.
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    Par basically said in one post he didn't think his stuff was selling good enough due to "lack of fancy ingredients" so he threw in a bunch of filler when he released the new versions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
    Par basically said in one post he didn't think his stuff was selling good enough due to "lack of fancy ingredients" so he threw in a bunch of filler when he released the new versions.
    Please provide a link...does not sound like Par.
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    If you go hit up all the old issues of M&M and the avant forums you will find it, sorry I just don't have time to dig. It might have been Dante not par but I distinctly remember reading it from on of them on their site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
    Par basically said in one post he didn't think his stuff was selling good enough due to "lack of fancy ingredients" so he threw in a bunch of filler when he released the new versions.
    We have never released a product with ingredient filler...ever. Anyone with a brain can analyze each and every ingredient and can figure out exactly why it is included.

    For us to release something useless, and with the intelligence of our members/customers, we would be exposed in about 4 seconds and our reputation ruined.

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    Thanks for stepping up and calling that out.
    ALL THAT "FILLER" DATA RIGHT HERE
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    Glad the avant crew is quick to defend its own... and imply anyone who says otherwise does not have a brain.

    I was partly incorrect, the coments I made refer to leptigen2 and not Lipoderm, It is difficult to keep everything I have previously read on that site straight in my head. However if they adopt a policy once of changing something due to lack of "flashy ingredients" once, they are likely to use it again and I stand by my claim.

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-114.html

    From Mind and Muscle Q&A:

    Q. How much better and different will LeptiGen2 be?

    A. It will be quite a bit different.

    Flaws with the original:

    ...
    Lack of flashy ingredients -- even if no one was using one single ingredient for leptin reasons and had no idea of dosing, whatsoever, there is still a large segment that view it as a rip-off, regardless of efficacy, because they had heard of the ingredients before.
    All will be remedied.
    ...
    I like Avant Labs, and in general trust par et al. However you can see for yourself here from the horse's mouth that the product was changed to add flashy ingredients.

    Yes the Q.A. section specifies it is "A healthy mix of fake questions, real answers, vice-versa, and everything in between." but I think it is safe to say this was a "real answer".

    I apologize for incorrectly refering to the lipoderm line when I was talking about leptigen. I would think you avant folks owe me an apology as well, given the above.

    I believe it is you who are mistaken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
    Par basically said in one post he didn't think his stuff was selling good enough due to "lack of fancy ingredients" so he threw in a bunch of filler when he released the new versions.

    LOL...I've NEVER heard Par talk like this

    His answer which you refer to is classic Par sarcasm. He definitely wouldn't formulate something just to throw in some fancy ingredients that everyone hasn't heard of before. What he was alluding to was the fact that this is a new formulation with unique ingredients. You know...cutting edge. That is his forte. The whole Avant foundation as far as I can tell is based on using things which aren't typically available. Just like Sledge et al. He just has a funny way of speaking.....funny.
    Last edited by SJA; 08-03-2004 at 08:07 PM. Reason: addition
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    I've been reading avant since they released one so I am very familiar with par's writings (M&M and the forums).

    There was also a forum post where he mentioned lackluster sales and jazzing it up, but I coudn't find it with a quick search like the above quote (no time).

    I never said the new formulation didn't work, or the new formula didn't work better. However he is running a buisness and if he coudn't move as much product as he wanted why is it that hard to believe he would jazz it up a tad to help sales?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
    I've been reading avant since they released one so I am very familiar with par's writings (M&M and the forums).

    There was also a forum post where he mentioned lackluster sales and jazzing it up, but I coudn't find it with a quick search like the above quote (no time).

    I never said the new formulation didn't work, or the new formula didn't work better. However he is running a buisness and if he coudn't move as much product as he wanted why is it that hard to believe he would jazz it up a tad to help sales?

    I believe that "jazzing it up" is what he intended. But what you said was that he "threw in a bunch of fillers" which would lead one to think "Biotest". I think that his jazz was much more than fillers as he researches a LOT.
    I just think that there is a communication error here and that no one is really in a pissing match but rather interpreting things differently.

    No worries.
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    There is a huge difference between adding "flashy" ingredients that work, but are included for a uniqueness factor, and throwing in a bunch of filler. You made a judgement call that was incorrect, carrying what Par said to where he, by no means, meant it.
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    Do think the new stuff REALLY makes that much of a difference and is properly dosed? Yes I have seen the studies, so spare me the typical avant list of pub-med abstracts.

    I think most avant reformulations have just been an attempt to boost sales while the core ingredients have remained the same. They are good products, but I don't think the changes make a difference. A longer ingredient list makes a product sell better, though not necessarily work better. Releasing a new version will also create a sales spike. Lets face it, avant is a company - better than most - but like any other company it wants to make money. These additions are indeed "filler" for the ingredients list. I think the fact that the amount of each ingredient is not printed on the bottle helps my theory, it is impossible to know if each ingredient is correctly dosed.

    Leptigen for instance contains "Proprietary Blend of the following ingredients:Galactose, BCAA's, IP6, Betaine HCl, glucosamine HCl, Glutamine, creatine pyruvate, Lecithin, sodium acetate, histadine, arginine, Leucine, Taurine, Magnesium citrate, calcium lactate, n-acetyl-glucosamine, vitamine E acetate, l-carnitine, inositol, Glycine, salt (iodized, K+) calcium pantothenate, Proline, n-acetyl-tyrosine, vitamin C with ascorbate, GABA, simmondsin, 5-HTP, alpha lipoic acid, synephrine, Zinc, folic acid 10% with tmg, giotin 1%, selenomethionine."

    Why not release how much of each? Probably because some are underdosed and are just there to extend the ingredients list. Joe Consumer thinks the more stuff in it, the better the product. Companies, who are out to make money, will cater to him - even Avant. You live in a dream world if you don't think this happens. Sure all the stuff *might* work, but I doubt it all will and is properly dosed.

    Lets face it, they are good products but the ingredients list is full of "fillers" to make the producs more "flashy" and help sales.

    dsade I know you are a mod at Avant, aren't you an employee too? Just curious if you had a financial stake in the company. Not an ad hominem attack, but I think it makes somewhat of a difference in how I view your thoughts
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    I am in charge of production at Avant. I know the dosages of each ingredient, and I know that nothing is underdosed.

    The ingredients that were dropped are not "filler" (which implies uselessness), but they added significant cost that the market would not support. The products were reformulated to reduce cost, without compromising effectiveness too much.

    In the meantime, I am taking on the problem of finding the ingredients from the original cheap enough to be able to re-release the full version at a reduced price.
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    Eh, I trust Avant usually but I always find it hard to believe someone who is pimping their own product - certainly a conflict of interest if selling it puts food on your table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
    Eh, I trust Avant usually but I always find it hard to believe someone who is pimping their own product - certainly a conflict of interest if selling it puts food on your table.
    When and where was there pimping? You claimed that Avant added fillers. The statement was refuted by dsade. Now you're claiming pimping?
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    He was not pimping he was defending his product against the comments you made. Avant makes quality products and have research, science, and writeups explaining why everything is included.
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    I have intimate knowledge of dosages. I get no percentage of Leptigen, so I get paid regardless if we sell it or not.

    You made unsubstantiated claims (thinking out loud, it seems), and I calmly pointed out that you are mistaken. I'm sorry that you consider that pimping, but it seems that no matter what I would have said (short of agreeing with you) you would have disregarded - even though I am one of only a handful that can even answer your questions/concerns.

    I don't appreciate your insult to my, nor Avant's, integrity.
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