Avant Labs Lipoderm Ultra or Lipoderm-Y?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
    Par basically said in one post he didn't think his stuff was selling good enough due to "lack of fancy ingredients" so he threw in a bunch of filler when he released the new versions.

    LOL...I've NEVER heard Par talk like this

    His answer which you refer to is classic Par sarcasm. He definitely wouldn't formulate something just to throw in some fancy ingredients that everyone hasn't heard of before. What he was alluding to was the fact that this is a new formulation with unique ingredients. You know...cutting edge. That is his forte. The whole Avant foundation as far as I can tell is based on using things which aren't typically available. Just like Sledge et al. He just has a funny way of speaking.....funny.
    Last edited by SJA; 08-03-2004 at 08:07 PM. Reason: addition


  2. I've been reading avant since they released one so I am very familiar with par's writings (M&M and the forums).

    There was also a forum post where he mentioned lackluster sales and jazzing it up, but I coudn't find it with a quick search like the above quote (no time).

    I never said the new formulation didn't work, or the new formula didn't work better. However he is running a buisness and if he coudn't move as much product as he wanted why is it that hard to believe he would jazz it up a tad to help sales?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
    I've been reading avant since they released one so I am very familiar with par's writings (M&M and the forums).

    There was also a forum post where he mentioned lackluster sales and jazzing it up, but I coudn't find it with a quick search like the above quote (no time).

    I never said the new formulation didn't work, or the new formula didn't work better. However he is running a buisness and if he coudn't move as much product as he wanted why is it that hard to believe he would jazz it up a tad to help sales?

    I believe that "jazzing it up" is what he intended. But what you said was that he "threw in a bunch of fillers" which would lead one to think "Biotest". I think that his jazz was much more than fillers as he researches a LOT.
    I just think that there is a communication error here and that no one is really in a pissing match but rather interpreting things differently.

    No worries.

  4. There is a huge difference between adding "flashy" ingredients that work, but are included for a uniqueness factor, and throwing in a bunch of filler. You made a judgement call that was incorrect, carrying what Par said to where he, by no means, meant it.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  5. Do think the new stuff REALLY makes that much of a difference and is properly dosed? Yes I have seen the studies, so spare me the typical avant list of pub-med abstracts.

    I think most avant reformulations have just been an attempt to boost sales while the core ingredients have remained the same. They are good products, but I don't think the changes make a difference. A longer ingredient list makes a product sell better, though not necessarily work better. Releasing a new version will also create a sales spike. Lets face it, avant is a company - better than most - but like any other company it wants to make money. These additions are indeed "filler" for the ingredients list. I think the fact that the amount of each ingredient is not printed on the bottle helps my theory, it is impossible to know if each ingredient is correctly dosed.

    Leptigen for instance contains "Proprietary Blend of the following ingredients:Galactose, BCAA's, IP6, Betaine HCl, glucosamine HCl, Glutamine, creatine pyruvate, Lecithin, sodium acetate, histadine, arginine, Leucine, Taurine, Magnesium citrate, calcium lactate, n-acetyl-glucosamine, vitamine E acetate, l-carnitine, inositol, Glycine, salt (iodized, K+) calcium pantothenate, Proline, n-acetyl-tyrosine, vitamin C with ascorbate, GABA, simmondsin, 5-HTP, alpha lipoic acid, synephrine, Zinc, folic acid 10% with tmg, giotin 1%, selenomethionine."

    Why not release how much of each? Probably because some are underdosed and are just there to extend the ingredients list. Joe Consumer thinks the more stuff in it, the better the product. Companies, who are out to make money, will cater to him - even Avant. You live in a dream world if you don't think this happens. Sure all the stuff *might* work, but I doubt it all will and is properly dosed.

    Lets face it, they are good products but the ingredients list is full of "fillers" to make the producs more "flashy" and help sales.

    dsade I know you are a mod at Avant, aren't you an employee too? Just curious if you had a financial stake in the company. Not an ad hominem attack, but I think it makes somewhat of a difference in how I view your thoughts
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  6. I am in charge of production at Avant. I know the dosages of each ingredient, and I know that nothing is underdosed.

    The ingredients that were dropped are not "filler" (which implies uselessness), but they added significant cost that the market would not support. The products were reformulated to reduce cost, without compromising effectiveness too much.

    In the meantime, I am taking on the problem of finding the ingredients from the original cheap enough to be able to re-release the full version at a reduced price.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  7. Eh, I trust Avant usually but I always find it hard to believe someone who is pimping their own product - certainly a conflict of interest if selling it puts food on your table.
  8. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
    Eh, I trust Avant usually but I always find it hard to believe someone who is pimping their own product - certainly a conflict of interest if selling it puts food on your table.
    When and where was there pimping? You claimed that Avant added fillers. The statement was refuted by dsade. Now you're claiming pimping?
    All my life I've never stopped to worry 'bout a thing,
    Open up and shout it out, an' never try to sing,
    Wondering if I've done it wrong,
    Will this depression last for long, wont you tell me,
    Where have all the good times gone.

  9. He was not pimping he was defending his product against the comments you made. Avant makes quality products and have research, science, and writeups explaining why everything is included.

  10. I have intimate knowledge of dosages. I get no percentage of Leptigen, so I get paid regardless if we sell it or not.

    You made unsubstantiated claims (thinking out loud, it seems), and I calmly pointed out that you are mistaken. I'm sorry that you consider that pimping, but it seems that no matter what I would have said (short of agreeing with you) you would have disregarded - even though I am one of only a handful that can even answer your questions/concerns.

    I don't appreciate your insult to my, nor Avant's, integrity.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  11. This thread got off topic fast.... I would like to see some reviews of lipoderm and absolved. What do the people who used the product think of it?

  12. Before Dante left avant He once wrote in M&M (http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-70.html) about judging a product:

    In general cases, most ingredients in a product do work, but only in certain circumstances, so we have to look at:

    Do the studies mention a specific, dose dependant response? If so, does this products have the corresponding dose?
    ...
    "Proprietary" should be generally taken as a euphemism for “a group of nutrients that can not be patented, since they are in the public domain, but which we can group together, and give a new, exciting name and treat it as though it were a new and exciting ingredient.?
    Funny some avant products have these "Proprietary" blends and make it impossible to see if something is dosed correctly, a criteria established by their company for judging a product.

    I am in charge of production at Avant. I know the dosages of each ingredient, and I know that nothing is underdosed.
    If somebody who makes money off a product starts talking about how good it is and how we can trust him that everything is dosed ok instead of deciding for ourselves, I call it pimping.

    The only way you can refute my claim that avant added "filler" substances to the ingredients list it to post how much of each compound is in your proprietary blends. 0.5mcg of a compound probably isn't going to do much good, but it puts it on the ingredients list under the special blend of herbs and spices.

    Why hide behind a secret formula?

  13. Honestly, proprietary belnds are becoming more popular in the market. True, that there are a few companies who do this jsut to underdose products, but many of the new formulas out do this so their formula will not be copied. Take the new VPX redline for example...they used a proprietary formula...and there product was still knocked off by LMR.

  14. If somebody who makes money off a product starts talking about how good it is and how we can trust him that everything is dosed ok instead of deciding for ourselves, I call it pimping.

    The only way you can refute my claim that avant added "filler" substances to the ingredients list it to post how much of each compound is in your proprietary blends. 0.5mcg of a compound probably isn't going to do much good, but it puts it on the ingredients list under the special blend of herbs and spices.

    Why hide behind a secret formula?
    I addressed your comments - I did not come on here talking about how good it works. We let our feedback testify to that.

    The issue of proprietary formulas was well-addressed by Nsruffryder.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  15. They don't list exact amounts so that people won't rip them off.

  16. You don't find it a little hypocritical your company published a highly critical article on scams saying that in order to properly evaluate a product one needs to be able to know if the dosing of each ingredient is high enough but then released a product without that information?

  17. cr4ytonic....what is your beef here? That you want the formula for their products or that you tried them and they didn't work? I'm not understanding your point.
    This thread was just someone needing advice on which substance to use for chest fat and the thread starter seemed to have some user feedback to aid him (and others). You seemingly have a beef with the Avant crew and turned this into a pissing match for no apparent reason. You weren't even talking about Lipo-Y or Lipo-U....so what's the deal?

    I'm not part of their crew at all and just enjoy learning from the boards...but this is sounding more like Brotelligence bickering.

  18. What is transdermal caffein? I have some caffein anhydrous.
    Can I add it to lipoderm-Y?

  19. Bump, bump.

    Bioman or b5150, what kind of caffein did you use.
  20. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    Bump, bump.

    Bioman or b5150, what kind of caffein did you use.
    Caffeine Anhydrous. Transdermal (topical) is the delivery method. So..."transdermal caffeine" is caffeine administered via transdermal application as opposed to say orally administered. When using the lipo products they are using a transdermal that is a site-specific/local delivery formulation. So one gets the diuretic effect of caffeine in the area of application as opposed to systemic. If one were to take caffeine orally there would still be a diuretic effect, but it would then be systemic rather than locally/targeted. The reasoning behind using it transdermally is for targeted delivery of the diuretic effect, and specifically in the case of lipo-y, to offset the local water retention associated with transdermal y-hcl.

  21. Thanks, man. I got my lipoderm-y and caffein anhydrous today, I just had to make sure it's the right kind of caffein.

  22. Hi folks,

    Quote Originally Posted by Longdog
    Yohimbine should not affect the liver at all.
    LD, thanks for the reply (from awhile back). But what I meant was, if you are trying to remove a substantial amount of bodyfat from your system via something like Lipoderm Ultra, would that overtax your liver/gallbladder, what with the removal of so much "stuff" at once?

    Just want to be clear as to any such risks before I start using the product.

    Thanks for any further insight!

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Holmes
    Hi folks,



    LD, thanks for the reply (from awhile back). But what I meant was, if you are trying to remove a substantial amount of bodyfat from your system via something like Lipoderm Ultra, would that overtax your liver/gallbladder, what with the removal of so much "stuff" at once?

    Just want to be clear as to any such risks before I start using the product.

    Thanks for any further insight!
    I believe the amount of fat you are removing from your system remains the same (ie-it is dependant on caloric intake/expenditure and phys. activity) however what changes with the application of Lipoderm is WHERE it gets the fat from. Instead of preferentially taking fat from where your genetics determine (for example in me, my legs), it will instead be burning some fat from the areas where you applied the lipoderm.

    So to answer your question, no it shouldnt be hard on your liver or gallbladder at all Now fat burners like usnic acid and that like, those....

  24. I finally started on the Lipoderm Ultra and have been taking it for just under two weeks now - two pumps, twice daily (half the recommended dosage).

    Bottom line: Serious day-long jitters. Any other Lipoderm users experienced this?

    How much Yohimbe/L-Carnitine/caffeine is in this stuff? And how much actually gets absorbed into the bloodstream?

    Thanks.

  25. Never any problems unless I was also taking oral ECY at the same time. I used the product several times at much higher dosing (8 pumps).

  26. Has anyone used either of these on their abs? Did you get more definition?

  27. Quote Originally Posted by jmh80
    Has anyone used either of these on their abs? Did you get more definition?
    Yes and Yes

  28. cr4ytonic
    you said,
    "Leptigen for instance contains "Proprietary Blend of the following ingredients:Galactose, BCAA's, IP6, Betaine HCl, glucosamine HCl, Glutamine, creatine pyruvate, Lecithin, sodium acetate, histadine, arginine, Leucine, Taurine, Magnesium citrate, calcium lactate, n-acetyl-glucosamine, vitamine E acetate, l-carnitine, inositol, Glycine, salt (iodized, K+) calcium pantothenate, Proline, n-acetyl-tyrosine, vitamin C with ascorbate, GABA, simmondsin, 5-HTP, alpha lipoic acid, synephrine, Zinc, folic acid 10% with tmg, giotin 1%, selenomethionine."

    Why not release how much of each? Probably because some are underdosed and are just there to extend the ingredients list. Joe Consumer thinks the more stuff in it, the better the product. Companies, who are out to make money, will cater to him."

    I highly doubt that the average "JOE CONSUMER" even purchases Leptigen, as it is somewhat pricey. If you look at almost any review you will see that this is a highly reviewed and a well liked product. This product clearly fills a particular nitch that other companies have failed to fill. Of course with a product as unique and innovative as this they would not want to be ripped off, hence the proprietary blend!

  29. I'll keep quiet, for fear of being called a pimp.

  30. I'll keep even quieter, for fear of being called a gimp
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