Glutamine.......useless?

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    Glutamine.......useless?


    Megadose glutamine does nothing for strength athletes

    Megadose glutamine does nothing for strength athletes

    Glutamine [structural formula shown below] will no doubt remain on the shelves of sports supplements shops for years to come. If the study that sports scientists at the University of Saskatchewan in Canada did canít change this, nothing can. It showed back in 2001 that glutamine doesnít work.

    Glutamine is not an essential amino acid. Itís an amino acid that the body makes itself, from other amino acids. Half of the free amino acids in the body consist of glutamine.

    If you look at the fundamental research that has been done on the role of glutamine in physical exertion, itís not that surprising that supplements manufacturers have put glutamine on the market. If your blood becomes acid, your body makes an alkaline substance from glutamine to neutralise the acid level in your blood. If your body doesnít have enough glutamine available at that moment, it gets the adrenal glands to make more cortisol, which forces your muscles to release glutamine.

    On top of that, glutamine converts easily into glucose. Many types of cell prefer to use glutamine as a source of energy.

    In the mid 1990s an American researcher also discovered that just 2 g glutamine increases the GH concentration by a factor 5. [Am J Clin Nutr. 1995 May; 61(5): 1058-61.] In this study, 9 test subjects were given glutamine after eating a light breakfast. The glutamine was dissolved in a glass of Coke.

    All this would be enough to believe in glutamine supplementation. If you give athletes extra glutamine, they produce less cortisol during exhaustive training, their muscle cells convert less amino acid into glucose and they synthesise more growth hormone. Demonstrating that strength athletes show more progression when they take glutamine supplements looked like a mere formality.

    But because you do have to go through the formalities, Canadian scientists did an experiment in 2001 involving 31 male and female strength athletes aged between 18 and 24.

    Half of the subjects were given 0.9 g glutamine per kg lean body mass every day for 6 weeks. That was equivalent to about 45 g glutamine a day Ė the highest dose you can give without it becoming toxic. The subjects divided the glutamine over two intakes: one just after training and one just before going to sleep. On the days that they didnít train, the subjects were allowed to take the daytime dose whenever they wanted, but the night-time dose was taken at the same time as on training days.

    The other half of the subjects were given a placebo. And the placebo group had exactly the same progression as the glutamine group by the end of the experiment.

    A popular theory is that all sorts of cells other than muscle cells, like gut, brain and immune cells slurp up all the glutamine before it can have an ergogenic effect.
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    so are you saying we shouldnt bother taking glutamine anymore?
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    I've been saying glutamine is useless for years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    ...glutamine is useless...
    Definitely - been saying this since I did my meta-analysis on it in 2008. Absolutely useless unless perhaps you are completely sedentary, but even then, not beneficial for much.

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    Agreed and have also shared your sentiment and stated the same for years. Unless it's administered via IV (lol), total waste!

    One useless supplement debunked, THOUSANDS to go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I've been saying glutamine is useless for years.
    What about during injury/rehab or during a cutting phase?
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    Ive been dosing glutamine ~20g postworkout to replenish glycogen instead of throwing 100g simple sugars/WM down my throat. After, i drink my 50g whey/casein shake.

    Ive recomped on this rather nicely. This is also what Poliquin recommends.
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    Yep Glutamine is useless... Funny to think that a supplement that doesnt even work can make millions$$
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    ^^^ *L* unfortunately it happens all the time!!
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    plenty of mixed reviews on whether it is useless. Lots of people use it and have had "real world" postive results from it. And those lots of people are bigtime training gurus so to speak. I wouldnt quite throw glutamine under the bus quite yet.
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    This again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by msucurt View Post
    Ive been dosing glutamine ~20g postworkout to replenish glycogen instead of throwing 100g simple sugars/WM down my throat. After, i drink my 50g whey/casein shake.

    Ive recomped on this rather nicely. This is also what Poliquin recommends.
    This IMO is the most intriguing potential use for this supplement..not saying it works or not...but it is very intriguing ....
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    Well, since glutamine is so cheap, i have been using 20g PWO to restore glycogen instead of using lots of simple sugars. Now, for adding tons of mass and bulking, its probably not the best idea, but for aesthetics, fatloss, recomp....it seems to work pretty good.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveironman View Post
    This IMO is the most intriguing potential use for this supplement..not saying it works or not...but it is very intriguing ....
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    I haven't taken it for years.
    Not that I think it is extremely useless, but I rather spend my money on other supps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msucurt View Post
    Ive been dosing glutamine ~20g postworkout to replenish glycogen instead of throwing 100g simple sugars/WM down my throat. After, i drink my 50g whey/casein shake.

    Ive recomped on this rather nicely. This is also what Poliquin recommends.
    I've seen him advocate this and never appreciated it. I'd rather eat carbs. They are much tastier.
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    Glutamine is the first amino acid metabolised by the body when it breaks down muscle. On a cut where muscle may be lost, giving the body glutamine will help keep the body from getting glutamine from the muscle. On my phone, short reply is short.
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    Reference Data:Antonio, J., M.S. Sanders, D. Kalman, D. Woodgate, and C. Street. The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance.


    Amino acids and endurance exercise.
    Hargreaves MH, Snow R.
    School of Health Sciences, Deakin University, Burwood, 3125, Australia.


    Facts and fallacies of purported ergogenic amino acid supplements.
    Williams MH.
    Department of Exercise Science, Physical Education, and Recreation, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, Virginia, USA.


    Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.
    Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.
    College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.


    Addition of glutamine to essential amino acids and carbohydrate does not enhance anabolism in young human males following exercise.
    Wilkinson SB, Kim PL, Armstrong D, Phillips SM.
    Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.
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    Datbtrue quote:
    Providing the amino acids that are most readily lost such as L-Alanine and L-Glutamine along w/ one that can be oxidized rather then retained (L-Leucine) probably will help avoid catabolism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ligmenos View Post
    Addition of glutamine to essential amino acids and carbohydrate does not enhance anabolism in young human males following exercise.
    Wilkinson SB, Kim PL, Armstrong D, Phillips SM.
    Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, 1280 Main St. West, Hamilton, ON L8S 4K1, Canada.
    I don't think glutamine is supposed to be anabolic. It's supposed to be anti-catabolic. Like I posted before, glutamine is THE FIRST amino acid to be taken from muscle and used as energy when there are restricted calories.

    Wanted to post something up from another very reputable forum:

    Glutamine supplementation dosages vary with the current hallmark at 0.5g/kg bodyweight.97 Glutamine supplementation (0.57 g/kg bodyweight) has not shown any clinical toxicities or generated toxic metabolites (ammonia and glutamate),98 which can have neurological effects.99 Catabolic conditions such as excessive exercise or trauma can decrease plasma glutamine concentrations while glutamine supplementation can maintain normal plasma glutamine concentrations100-102 or even increase plasma glutamine concentrations.87, 103
    97. Savy, G.K., Glutamine supplementation: heal the gut, help the patient, J Infus Nurs, 25(1): 65–9, 2002.

    98. Ziegler, T.R. et al., Safety and metabolic effects of L-glutamine administration in humans, JPEN J Parenter Enteral Nutr, 14(4 Suppl.): 137S–146S, 1990.

    99. Garlick, P.J., Assessment of the safety of glutamine and other amino acids, J Nutr, 131(9 Suppl.):2556S–61S, 2001.
    COMBINATION OF GLUTAMINE AND OMEGA-3 SUPPLEMENTATION

    Glutamine and omega-3 supplementation has predominantly been studied in the form of immuneenhancing diets and immune formulas for the treatment of patients that have undergone stress such as trauma, surgery, or burns. Nutrition is one of the most important treatments for severe trauma or burns patients.117 Immune-enhancing formulas and diets that contain glutamine, omega-3 fatty acids, nucleotides, and other amino acids such as arginine can positively modulate postsurgical immunosuppressive and inflammatory responses in patients who have undergone major operations in gastrointestinal cancer, can decrease polymorphonuclear leukocyte supernatant IL-6 and TNF-Š,118 can shorten intensive care unit stay, and can decrease C-reactive protein up to 14 d posttrauma in severe trauma and burn patients117 and reduce infectious complications in severely injured patients.119 It is not known what effects combinations of glutamine and omega-3 fatty acids may have on athletes, exercise performance, or exercise-related inflammatory mediators as no studies have been performed.

    Athletes most likely to benefit from glutamine and omega-3 fatty acid supplementation may be those on energy restricted diets or in an immuno-compromised state. Low intakes of carbohydrate may increase the utilization of glutamine for energy (anaplerosis) and consequently compromise glutamine availability for other functions. Low intakes of protein may compromise glutamine concentrations, and low intakes of dietary fat or specifically omega-3 fatty acids may increase the risk of chronic or prolonged inflammation during stressed states. Athletes who engage in large training volumes, prolonged high intensity training, or training with a large eccentric component that increases the risk of muscle damage may also benefit. Finally, athletes in sports that have high levels of impact, such as those in the martial arts or contact sports involving tackling, are likely to experience regular inflammation-inducing body impact during training. Athletes in the martial arts in particular may benefit from glutamine and omega-3 fatty acid supplementation as they are frequently on restricted diets in order to compete in particular weight divisions.

    Source: Chapter 21 - Nutraceuticals and Inflammation in Athletes, Brendan Plunkett, Robin Callister, and Manohar L. Garg from Handbook of Nutraceuticals and Functional Foods, Second Edition, CRC Press 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by msucurt View Post
    Ive been dosing glutamine ~20g postworkout to replenish glycogen instead of throwing 100g simple sugars/WM down my throat. After, i drink my 50g whey/casein shake.

    Ive recomped on this rather nicely. This is also what Poliquin recommends.
    This is the same way I use it- in low carb situations for anti-catabolic purposes post workout.

    Saying glutamine is useless without giving a reason is a huge generalisation. I wouldn't add it to shakes with high carb sources post workout but would happily take it while on low carb diets for fast glycogen replenishment.

    I also use it for gut health.
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    This is something I found interesting:http://ergo-log.com/glutaminedoesnothing.html I can say I used to take 3-5 grams in the morning, 3-5 preworkout and 3-5 postworkout... can't say I felt any difference in recovery or even immune system. I used to get sick all of the time, started the Caveman diet, everyone's sick this winter, my immune system's doing this:
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    My rule of thumb, is if you take it and you don't feel better, look better, or perform better, and it isn't Omega 3's, it's probably useless, if not for everyone than just for you. People utilize muuuch too many staple supplements in my opinion.
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    To be fair, saying it did nothing to increase strength over that time would also write off a huge majority of supplements on this forum.

    Supplement A increases total test by X%
    Supplement B increases GH by Y%
    Supplement C decreases....

    They are isolated results. Not results compared to a placebo over a period of time in regards to strength gains.

    If 2g of glutamine increases GH concentrations by a factor of 5. Let's think how many supplements do the same type of thing but have fancy write ups with blood work from 5 testers. Does this mean if they compared it with a placebo group for 8 weeks they would increase their bench press percentages faster than the placebo? Completely different question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post

    I don't think glutamine is supposed to be anabolic. It's supposed to be anti-catabolic. Like I posted before, glutamine is THE FIRST amino acid to be taken from muscle and used as energy when there are restricted calories.


    Glutamine supplementation dosages vary with the current hallmark at 0.5g/kg bodyweight.97 Glutamine supplementation (0.57 g/kg bodyweight) has not shown any clinical toxicities or generated toxic metabolites (ammonia and glutamate),98 which can have neurological effects.99 Catabolic conditions such as excessive exercise or trauma can decrease plasma glutamine concentrations while glutamine supplementation can maintain normal plasma glutamine concentrations100-102 or even increase plasma glutamine concentrations.87, 103


    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post

    COMBINATION OF GLUTAMINE AND OMEGA-3 SUPPLEMENTATION

    Glutamine and omega-3 supplementation has predominantly been studied in the form of immuneenhancing diets and immune formulas for the treatment of patients that have undergone stress such as trauma, surgery, or burns. Nutrition is one of the most important treatments for severe trauma or burns patients.117 Immune-enhancing formulas and diets that contain glutamine, omega-3 fatty acids, nucleotides, and other amino acids such as arginine can positively modulate postsurgical immunosuppressive and inflammatory responses in patients who have undergone major operations in gastrointestinal cancer, can decrease polymorphonuclear leukocyte supernatant IL-6 and TNF-Š,118 can shorten intensive care unit stay, and can decrease C-reactive protein up to 14 d posttrauma in severe trauma and burn patients117 and reduce infectious complications in severely injured patients.119 It is not known what effects combinations of glutamine and omega-3 fatty acids may have on athletes, exercise performance, or exercise-related inflammatory mediators as no studies have been performed.

    Athletes most likely to benefit from glutamine and omega-3 fatty acid supplementation may be those on energy restricted diets or in an immuno-compromised state. Low intakes of carbohydrate may increase the utilization of glutamine for energy (anaplerosis) and consequently compromise glutamine availability for other functions.
    in diets with low intake of cho and calories.... but in bbing cutting diets have a lots of protein and aminoacids(bcaa)....

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Low intakes of protein may compromise glutamine concentrations,
    and low intakes of dietary fat or specifically omega-3 fatty acids may increase the risk of chronic or prolonged inflammation during stressed states.
    Glutamate is synthesized by transamination of the branched chain amino acids leucine, isoleucine and valine, which are extensively decarboxylated in skeletal muscle. In this reaction, the branched chain amino acids react with α-ketoglutarate to produce α-ketoacids and glutamate in presence of the branched chain amino acid aminotransaminase enzyme. We may, therefore, predict that muscle glutamine synthesis does not only require intramuscular availability of branched chain amino acids for transamination but also an adequate flux of energy substrates through the pyruvate dehydrogenase and the tricarboxylic acid cycle as well as an adequate source of carbon skeletons.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Athletes who engage in large training volumes, prolonged high intensity training, or training with a large eccentric component that increases the risk of muscle damage may also benefit. Finally, athletes in sports that have high levels of impact, such as those in the martial arts or contact sports involving tackling, are likely to experience regular inflammation-inducing body impact during training. Athletes in the martial arts in particular may benefit from glutamine and omega-3 fatty acid supplementation as they are frequently on restricted diets in order to compete in particular weight divisions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ligmenos View Post
    in diets with low intake of cho and calories.... but in bbing cutting diets have a lots of protein and aminoacids(bcaa)....
    Agreed, though I would say that there is always muscle lost in a cut in natural athletes, regardless of how careful the diet is. Glutamine could theoretically help prevent some of that catabolism, even if it's a small amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ligmenos View Post
    Glutamate is synthesized by transamination of the branched chain amino acids leucine, isoleucine and valine, which are extensively decarboxylated in skeletal muscle. In this reaction, the branched chain amino acids react with α-ketoglutarate to produce α-ketoacids and glutamate in presence of the branched chain amino acid aminotransaminase enzyme. We may, therefore, predict that muscle glutamine synthesis does not only require intramuscular availability of branched chain amino acids for transamination but also an adequate flux of energy substrates through the pyruvate dehydrogenase and the tricarboxylic acid cycle as well as an adequate source of carbon skeletons.
    I don't know the source of your quote, but mine is from wikipedia:

    Initially, glial cells release glutamine, which is then taken up into presynaptic terminals and metabolized into glutamate by glutaminase (a mitochondrial enzyme). Glutamate can also be produced by transamination of 2-oxoglutarate, an intermediate in the Citric acid cycle.
    Glutamate is encountered mainly as an ingredient of monosodium glutamate, a substance used to enhance flavor.
    I also don't think that glutamate and glutamine are that closely related that a quote about glutamate can carry over to glutamine. I can easily be wrong on this, however.

    According to Houston (2001), "Glutamine content in skeletal muscle and other tissues appears to have a regulatory role in whole body protein synthesis." Glutamine levels inside muscle govern protein synthesis and nitrogen balance and therefore muscle growth (VanAcker et al. 1999). The newly synthesized glutamine is created by using BCAA's obtained from muscle protein breakdown (Holecek, 2002).
    From this study, it's apparent that the breakdown of BCAA is due to not having enough glutamine, and that the glutamine is being made by the breakdown of BCAA.

    I'm officially over my head and don't know enough about the chemistry and biology of this to really be a reputable source. So... in my closing remarks...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Agreed, though I would say that there is always muscle lost in a cut in natural athletes, regardless of how careful the diet is. Glutamine could theoretically help prevent some of that catabolism, even if it's a small amount.
    yes its possible that can prevent a small amount... but i think its the same thing use some bcaa...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    I don't know the source of your quote, but mine is from wikipedia:
    i cant post the link...because i need more posts....



    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    I also don't think that glutamate and glutamine are that closely related that a quote about glutamate can carry over to glutamine. I can easily be wrong on this, however.
    from wiki...

    Glutamine is synthesized by the enzyme glutamine synthetase from glutamate and ammonia
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    Glutamine is synthesized by the enzyme glutamine synthetase from glutamate and ammonia[/QUOTE]

    Glutamine synthetase (GS) (EC 6.3.1.2)[3] is an enzyme that plays an essential role in the metabolism of nitrogen by catalyzing the condensation of glutamate and ammonia to form glutamine.

    Glutamine synthetase and glutamate aren't the same f*cking thing as glutamine, stop acting as though they are. If anything, your quote above shows why glutamine staves off muscle breakdown.

    Because glutamine synthetase plays a roll in metabolism of nitrogen (I.E., muscle breakdown) in order to form glutamine, glutamine supplmentation should give the body enough glutamine so it doesn't need to break it down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Glutamine synthetase (GS) (EC 6.3.1.2)[3] is an enzyme that plays an essential role in the metabolism of nitrogen by catalyzing the condensation of glutamate and ammonia to form glutamine.

    Glutamine synthetase and glutamate aren't the same f*cking thing as glutamine, stop acting as though they are. If anything, your quote above shows why glutamine staves off muscle breakdown.
    ok lets go again....

    glutamate + ammonia = glutamine

    Glutamate is synthesized by transamination of the branched chain amino acids leucine, isoleucine and valine, which are extensively decarboxylated in skeletal muscle. In this reaction, the branched chain amino acids react with α-ketoglutarate to produce α-ketoacids and glutamate in presence of the branched chain amino acid aminotransaminase enzyme. We may, therefore, predict that muscle glutamine synthesis does not only require intramuscular availability of branched chain amino acids for transamination but also an adequate flux of energy substrates through the pyruvate dehydrogenase and the tricarboxylic acid cycle as well as an adequate source of carbon skeletons.



    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Because glutamine synthetase plays a roll in metabolism of nitrogen (I.E., muscle breakdown) in order to form glutamine, glutamine supplmentation should give the body enough glutamine so it doesn't need to break it down.
    ^^^ thats your theory right???

    glutamine pass the gastric mucosal barrier???

    break down what??? aminoacids???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ligmenos View Post
    ok lets go again....

    glutamate + ammonia = glutamine

    Glutamate is synthesized by transamination of the branched chain amino acids leucine, isoleucine and valine,
    That's why I'm saying if you supplement with glutamine, the body won't need to make it. I could be wrong, as I've said before, but it makes sense atm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    That's why I'm saying if you supplement with glutamine, the body won't need to make it. I could be wrong, as I've said before, but it makes sense atm.
    every time you take a protein shake or you eat protein this reaction take place...

    glutamate + ammonia = glutamine

    glutamine is a non toxic trasporter of ammonia.... you have to eliminate ammonia (urea)...
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