i want to formulate nutritional supplements, my absolute dream job

redman24

redman24

Banned
how to go about it?i have, by now literally spent thousands of hours researching nutritional supplementation and see myself well able to formulate effective products.
however i am from germany and there are neither any good companies here, nor is there any specific degree one can attain here regarding this subject.
additionally i have thought about building my own company but i am not really a business person, nor is that really what i want.
basically i would like to create formulas and then get paid by the company i create it for.however, for me it is less about the money than the fulfillment i would get from this.

does anyone here know how one can obtain such a position and how to go about it, since i am completely clueless.i also realize that it may seem strange and like a childish idea, since probably everyone on this forum would like to do this.however, i am certain i have the capacity for it and would really do this very well.

so, who wants to hire me? :-)
 
sehr witzig.actually i dont think being a chemist or pharmacist is really necessary to understand nutritional supplements.of course i understand that companies will only employ people who have a certain degree.thats why i was suggested to not be employed but to get paid for a complete formula.the company can then decide wether or not they will market the product and pay me or not.

i always found this annoying.i have no degree regarding this subject, however i know i am qualified by self-study.the time i have put in privately equals years of academic study.not that i expect it to actually happen, but why not try?
i know many people have come to their jobs in an unconventional manner.

not wanting to sound arrogant, but i see new formulas coming out, which are of good quality, yet i think to myself "this and this could have been done better".
 
Either make friends with someone who runs/owns a company...find someone who will let you invest in their company (basically buy your way into it), or start a company.

Most supplements can be formulated by a 9th grader, take some of herb A, and herb B, add some NO precursor and 1,3D, and BOOM, pre-workout magic....


This game is really about the marketing of the formula, not the formula itself.
 
the investing part sounds interesting.unfortunately there is no real market in germany, so i dont really have access to this kind of possibility.
 
I remember reading a post from TheHuge that really speaks to this. He said that when he first formulated bioforge it would have cost $80+ to make.

There's a huge understanding to have had here, be it on how much it costs to get all the raws to how much the product will cost to the end user. The company must find the best balance to allow it to profit while also making an effective product.

Of course this doesn't even mention how much money can go into research and testing product effectiveness. Certainly not all companies do this, sadly, but I try to make sure my money goes to innovators where possible, as this is the behaviour I want to encourage.

With the mention of innovation, being a chemist can have a big impact on your ability to innovate and can give you a solid grasp of why certain ingredients will best work together, rather then a group that just happened to work for you. This industry certainly doesn't need anymore broscience.

That said, here's some ideas. Start formulating now, even if just from raws you can get from nutraplanet or other places. Find a group of 5-10 friends that are as serious about working out as you, have been doing it for as long and you trust their judgement. Work to test formulas, then double blind test against other products and placebo.

The experiment could be done for a couple of hundred euro and maybe if works very well and other people try it at the gym and like it alot, especially since you have a less of a market in Germany, thus more opportunity, you could then look for investment based on it and look to partner with local gyms.
 
Skigazzi said:
Either make friends with someone who runs/owns a company...find someone who will let you invest in their company (basically buy your way into it), or start a company.

Most supplements can be formulated by a 9th grader, take some of herb A, and herb B, add some NO precursor and 1,3D, and BOOM, pre-workout magic....


This game is really about the marketing of the formula, not the formula itself.
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THIS!!
 
@synergyire

very interesting post.
thing is, i do have access to raw materials, that is not the problem.its the fact that i dont want to start my own company, as i am not the business type of person.i wish i could find people who do want to do this and work for them as product formulator.problem is again, that in germany most of these raws are not allowed, so you cannot start a company from here, unless you just sell protein and creatine.

i would find it interesting if a company would do something like a contest, where they give a specific product category and people can send in their formula ideas.the person whos idea is realized in the end gets a reward and maybe can work for this company in the future.

i know many companies have other people formulate their products, so lets say i have a few formulas up my sleeve that i think will be outstanding, how can i go about selling them to a company?this is really the idea that i have.freelance work.
 
redman24 said:
@synergyire

very interesting post.
thing is, i do have access to raw materials, that is not the problem.its the fact that i dont want to start my own company, as i am not the business type of person.i wish i could find people who do want to do this and work for them as product formulator.problem is again, that in germany most of these raws are not allowed, so you cannot start a company from here, unless you just sell protein and creatine
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for starters, not being a business sort of person is a problem. The most valuable formula as far as effectiveness goes has 0 value if its not sellable. Cost of raws, caps of dosage, even ability to market a product are all critical pieces of formulating products.
 
are you suggesting that a product formulator within a company does more than formulating the product? i am sure he is given a certain frame of what he is allowed to use as far as cost, and regarding other specifics of the product.i would think other people are responsible for these aspects?
 
redman24 said:
are you suggesting that a product formulator within a company does more than formulating the product? i am sure he is given a certain frame of what he is allowed to use as far as cost, and regarding other specifics of the product.i would think other people are responsible for these aspects?
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I think you have a deep misunderstanding of how nutritional supplements are formulated in particular, and how a nutritional supplement entity is run more generally.

Logistical considerations are inextricably tied to pharmacological ones, to the point where one is never proposed without considering the other.

It seems to me you wish to be paid for saying, "Combine 'X' amount of 'p' herb," when in reality, such positions do not exist. There are very rarely "product formulators" in the sense you intend here, as most "product formulators" are also executives, owners, representatives, etc., within the company.
 
redman24 said:
are you suggesting that a product formulator within a company does more than formulating the product? i am sure he is given a certain frame of what he is allowed to use as far as cost, and regarding other specifics of the product.i would think other people are responsible for these aspects?
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Not just suggesting it, but stating it. Even a fantastic formulation that works well is nothing if it doesn't sell. Something that has no recognizable ingredients requires a lot of marketing to get it to begin selling. Something that contains s number of known ingredients at low but effective doses requires a lot of marketing to get it selling. A product that requires 6 capsules 3x a day would require huge marketing to get it to sell. No company is particularly interested in farming out solely the "x mg of product y and a mg of product b" portion of formulating a product to someone who doesn't understand and isn't involved in the rest, unless they are some sort of celebrity. An Olympia or Mr Universe runner up could get away with it.
 
okay, i am beginning to gain a better understanding through the two last posts here.

however, hypothetically speaking, if i had the formula for one of the best products to day here in my drawer and wanted to sell it, without having to market it myself, how would i go about it?
 
Your only real hope would be to find a tiny supplement company without much of a product line, and try to sell it to them. But even there your lack of being a business type cuts into it, because saying "I have the best formula in the world here. No, I have no formal training. No, I have no blood tests or even anecdotal results. No, nobody have ever tried this yet, not even me." won't really get you very far anywhere. To make even a single run of a product, you are looking at producing at least 1000 bottles (so lets just say a cost of $25 each) - $25,000, at least $3000-5000 in marketing costs, to then see how well it works or if it sells? What would convince a company to take that sort of risk on you? I can't honestly think of a reason they would pay you money, plus risk $30,000 plus of their own money with it being a tossup as to the product working (since it hasn't even been tried).
 
hey, you work for anabolic innovations, one of my favourite companies.
glycobol is a great product, sparked my interest in supplements.didnt dr.d formulate it?so is he a member of your company?
when you received the formula, did you do extensive testing with the product including all the things you have listed?
those are just honest question, dont take them the wrong way.

on another note, i highly doubt most companies have specifically qualified people (does this even exist?) to formulate their products.
as someone stated, most products are just a close copy of whats already available.

and a company wouldnt have to produce a 1000 bottles first.they could use the formula for their own testing and produce the product if they like it.
i agree with you that a small company would be best, preferably one that is just starting.unfortunately finding one here is a pointless endeavour, for the reasons i have mentioned before.
 
redman24 said:
hey, you work for anabolic innovations, one of my favourite companies.
glycobol is a great product, sparked my interest in supplements.didnt dr.d formulate it?so is he a member of your company?
when you received the formula, did you do extensive testing with the product including all the things you have listed?
those are just honest question, dont take them the wrong way.
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Dr. D does, in fact, have formal training, a history of producing successful products and a host of other advantages you do not possess. In addition, AI most likely researched the raw materials, acquired the proper sources, verified the authenticity of those materials, produced a first run, verified the authenticity of that run, and began alpha testing.

That whole process is very costly, time consuming, and precisely the reason saying, "Hey, I have a chest of herbs anybody could throw together" will net you precisely nothing.

and a company wouldnt have to produce a 1000 bottles first.they could use the formula for their own testing and produce the product if they like it.
i agree with you that a small company would be best, preferably one that is just starting.unfortunately finding one here is a pointless endeavour, for the reasons i have mentioned before.
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Again, you have misunderstand the logistics afoot here.
 
i formulate products for Muscletech


...Im the reason Jay Cutler is huge
 
I wasn't with AI when glycobol was created, but as Mullet said, Dr D wasn't an anonymous person, he does have specific training and a track record. Basically any of - chemistry, biology, sports medicine, premed, nursing, nutrition, and a number of other degrees or certifications would give your formulation ideas some level of credibility. And yes, with any product there are multiple testing rounds, using anywhere from 10- 50 people to play with small variations in dosing and protocols, then usually a final semipublic test round.

And using your own "a company wouldn't have to run 1000 bottles, they could just test it and produce it if they liked it", no company with business type people running it would pay money for that when they already have employees with product ideas.
 
Mind you, I'm not trying to rip in to you so much as to give you some thought as to what you may need to do to get your ideas taken seriously.
 
i understand, im not taking anything from you as a personal attack.
i was just curious as to what would be required, as at least in germany, there is really no actual academic study for nutritional supplementation.so i was wondering where people who work in this field come from.
i still doubt that most companies really have any sort of academic background.(most likely marketing if anything)
i am not including ai in this by the way.your company is great.
 
redman, like you I was very interested in what you're aspiring to do too. I have been in this game for a good 4 years now and just recently am finally getting it down. It took me 4 years to understand what people have meant by "...make sure your diet's checked...etc".

Juggling this with school, work, and other activities or problems that life throws at you can get hectic. It's all about balance and keeping it simple. I have achieved so much just by substituting more food instead of supps.

But as far as you wanting to be a product formulator for a major company; a lot of time and hard work are the only two variables that are going to predict your specific outcomes. You have to understand the supplement industry as a whole and what it means to both, a company owner and the consumers of that company's product(s).

First, you definitely want to get your resume checked. A person with background or at least a B.S. in chemistry and biology will have a better shot at getting a research position than you will; assuming you don't have any formal degrees. I am not saying that in a wrong way, but it's just the truth. You can rant on about how you MAY have the best product on the market but unless you provide specific documents to back up your claim, your words don't mean anything. Companies want to be assured that you know what you're talking about and that you have experience in the field. They also like to see that you have been tested in the discipline(s) and that you passed successfully; which is what a college degree will show. Think about it, how do you usually get a job nowadays, unless you are connected very well?

Second, after you persuade a company to invest in your product, you then have legal contracts to agree and sign on. The fact that you are not very business-esque will make it harder for you to understand this industry. Rarely is there a position that is assigned strictly to product research, unless you work for a major corporation; but that's different. Like mullet said, a lot of original formulators are also either the owner/chairman, CEO, director of operations, reps, etc. To be involved in the production of a product, you are also involved in bringing it to spotlight.

You should also understand why this is the case. The dietary supplement industry is not FDA regulated. This is one of the biggest, cons, I guess you could say about the business. There are many restrictions that are heavily enforced and if one was to break a restriction, it would probably cost the owner his company. You want to know why? Big Pharma. To get a better understanding of this business, you should look into the pharmaceutical industry. You want to get a position as just a formulator right? Well in pharma, that's where you'd do it, but only because you'd be working for a multi-million dollar corporation where research and testing is practically funded by various government organizations. This isn't the case for the nutritional supplement industry.

A lot of companies just began inside the owner's basement with a batches and batches of samples to help spread their word. Then they started to make limited introductory produts, see how well of a buzz it produced and then went from there. It's a tough process, just like with any business; which is what you have to understand, at the end of the day it's a business.

No one is going to give you a check for thousands of dollars so you can bring a product on the table in which you have nothing to back it up from. Also to get involved with companies in this industry you either have to be very well connected or do it yourself the old-fashioned way; work hard in acheiving a well-rounded resume and start applying. The position you are intending to receive, only people with a high public profile can attain. And even at that, that person probably would have nothing to do with the production of the formula, but solely for the marketing purposes. See what I mean? If you want to be involved in producing the product, you also have to be involved in making it successful.
 
I wouldn't say that having a pharmacy or chem. background are necessities, althought it never hurts. The problem with not having some sort of educational background in the matter with a corresponding degree, would be that finding jobs within companies would be tought, and even though I know sooo many dunces with degrees and many brilliant minds without them, the general public gives credibility to those with degrees.
 
I think a research job with a supp. company would be great. But, sourcing is badass. How would you like to the guy that tries to find reps in Africa to source fadogia or something. Peeerrttty sweet.
 
jgassen15 said:
I wouldn't say that having a pharmacy or chem. background are necessities, althought it never hurts. The problem with not having some sort of educational background in the matter with a corresponding degree, would be that finding jobs within companies would be tought, and even though I know sooo many dunces with degrees and many brilliant minds without them, the general public gives credibility to those with degrees.
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Right. It doesn't hurt to have that because, like you said, the general public gives credibility to those with degrees. And I agree with your last statement as well; so many brilliant minds out there that don't have the official recognition but can still argue successfully with degree graduates.
 
Once AMS gets their website launched you will be able to see a lot of information about who is behind our company. I'd assume this is fairly similar to other companies to a certain degree, but we have everything from highly educated business/marketing individuals, street smart salesmen, accomplished chemists, and pro bodybuilders on staff. All of the guys contribute to a product's development. It's never a one man job in the end.

I would say a good start is being a useful poster on a popular forum. Become a rep. Learn the business and make connections.
 
redman24 said:
@synergyire

very interesting post.
thing is, i do have access to raw materials, that is not the problem.its the fact that i dont want to start my own company, as i am not the business type of person.i wish i could find people who do want to do this and work for them as product formulator.problem is again, that in germany most of these raws are not allowed, so you cannot start a company from here, unless you just sell protein and creatine.
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Sorry dude, but I have to call you on this, but only cause I care... What you're saying is 'I'd like to do it but it's impossible'. If thats your thought process then you're in trouble. I'm sure you see as being realistic, but you have to look for opportunity.

You have 3 ways to get into formulating the way I see it.

1) Get the education to prove you can do it
2) Have a track record of supplements you've made
3) Formulate and test your own supplement thats cost effective and shop it to supplement companies along with a science behind your choice.

Ideally you have a bit of them all. Creating product can easily cost $50,000+ (EASILY a LOT more) between paying for wages of those involved, test runs of product, testers and controlled testing, not to mention costs of graphics and marketing afterward.

When you go to a company with a formulation you're basically saying 'I want you to wager $50,000+ on me'. If you have no proof of concept, no tests and no science knowledge to back it, it's a hard sell, if not impossible.

If you want it to work, you need to be will to put up some cash, like $5000+ to get yourself going. Do you believe in yourself enough to invest and put down $5000 of your own cash for raws and running some control group tests to prove a supplement gives the results? If you don't then you have no business asking a supplement company to bet easily 10x that on you and your formulation.

As for raws, I hear germany is tough, but learn your laws inside out, find out exactly what you can and can't get in. Find the gaps and bring out something people arn't doing in germany because they believe the rules won't allow it, when really you can and legally.

Are you close to a border of a more open country? Are you willing to move for your dream? Are you willing to put some of your own time into study to improve your knowledge in chemistry and pharmacy to up your own game and increase your potential value as a formulator? Are you willing to put in the time to gain respect among the supplement industries companies?

There's are tons of resources to do that now, be that on the cheap or even free sources like iTunes University.

It's possible if you commit to doing whatever it takes.. but are you willing to do whatever it takes?
 
If you are passionate about this, have done you research on what you need to produce and understand the market and what would be in demand in your country are the first steps you need to take. You really need to do your research though, not just on ingredients, but also understand the market; what is currently out there, what difference will you make and how you can differentiate yourself from competitors.

To take this to the next level, you can invest either your own money or a loan or ask some people to help you with getting the funds and outsource the manufacturing to certified company that produces products. Many of the large companies or name brands worldwide do not produce or manufacture their own products; rather they outsource this to a specialized manufacturing company (Either Private Labeling or Custom Formulation approach). These companies will test raw material, test your formula before producing it to make sure it is stable (they hire Biochemists with various backgrounds), taste ...etc. In other words, many companies let these manufacturing companies do what they are good at (making your dream product possible), while you focus on how to market the product, branding it, distribution in order to sell it..etc. Many chemists and pharmacists who work in Pharmaceutical companies do invent amazing products, but they are worthless if they cannot be sold to the world which is why those companies pay high dollars for professional sales people in order to sell the invention.

Again, there is no stopping your dream, the best route is to take risks and always try. For a minimal investment (usually between $500-$3000), you can have a lab test your idea/your formula and make sure it is stable (in capsule form, gel cap, liquid or powder ..etc.) before you decide to pursue the product. Always make sure you have all the legal paper work to protect your ideas from being stolen.

Degrees are good, as your company grows or your product becomes successful, you can always hire the best grad from a biochem/chem or nutrition school. In the meantime, you can rent their knowledge for your benefit.

Best of luck
 
You need an education period. There is really only one place where anyone can dare to dream big without the need for an education or experience, it's called the tea party. In that world you can go from baking cookies, plumbing and macrameing yourself a pair of jean shorts, to running for governor or even formulating yourself a preworkout powder, made out of gatorade, splenda and ginkgo leaves. I say all this with love.
 
southpaw23 said:
You need an education period. There is really only one place where anyone can dare to dream big without the need for an education or experience, it's called the tea party. In that world you can go from baking cookies, plumbing and macrameing yourself a pair of jean shorts, to running for governor or even formulating yourself a preworkout powder, made out of gatorade, splenda and ginkgo leaves. I say all this with love.
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Or you can do it like Obama, go from 0 managerial or real legislative experience straight to the whitehouse on "hope and change", and have all the soppy democrats vote for you even though you have no background
 
EasyEJL said:
Or you can do it like Obama, go from 0 managerial or real legislative experience straight to the whitehouse on "hope and change", and have all the soppy democrats vote for you even though you have no background
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I like we're finally bonding. =) It's mantastic.
 
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