Fat loss - food before bed or bcaas?

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    Fat loss - food before bed or bcaas?


    I once read a thread on dieting.. I can't remember where it was.. but it discussed a little bit on dieting and meals before bed..

    I remember it said not to eat before bed.. and it had some other options, 1 was BCAAS..

    Has anyone read something similar?????? Any info on this topic would be great.. because I find it hard to fit meals in and normally have a shake before bed, but if they say on a diet it's better not to east within 3 hours then just looking for options.

    Thanks

    *edit* posted on a diff forum too, really wanna find the thread or info i had read!

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    No meals before bed..I suggest 25-40g of cassien with some glutamine and at times peanut butter and u can add bcaa if you like as well. But def try to have ur last meal atleast 3hour before bed
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    Skip the shake in my opinion, it spikes insulin levels which u dont want as u lay down. Use BCAAS right before bed and upon waking, wait 20 minutes b4 u eat in the morning. Killer fat loss aide
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfhuman View Post
    No meals before bed..I suggest 25-40g of cassien with some glutamine and at times peanut butter and u can add bcaa if you like as well. But def try to have ur last meal atleast 3hour before bed
    Quote Originally Posted by PumpDogg View Post
    Skip the shake in my opinion, it spikes insulin levels which u dont want as u lay down. Use BCAAS right before bed and upon waking, wait 20 minutes b4 u eat in the morning. Killer fat loss aide
    Thanks guy's, It's just difficult.. I work nights.. so I wake up at 3-4pm.. eat a meal, hit gym.. get home around 7:30... eat a meal.. start work at 10:30... break at 12, break at 3... so it's hard to even fit 5 meals in.. im 96kgs.. i should be eating like 2000-2400 on a cut.. prob eating 1500... so i may just try fit some milk in the diet and tuna in oil....

    I'll lay off the shakes before bed...and try just some bcaas... maybe i'll throw in a shake before I start work!
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    a Casein shake would be the best bet. even two cups of low carb milk (casein), both will give you a steady flow of aminos through out the night. Bcaa's go through digestion rapidly. A good timing for those are as soon as you wake up, and around your workouts.
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    I'm with bipole, casein shake, cottage cheese, tuna, chicken breast etc are all reasonable choices that will keep aminos in blood stream and not spike insulin levels. BCAAs are only anti-catabolic short term, theres evidence that without adding other protein within 1-2 hours after taking bcaas that protein oxidation is actually increased.
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    So long as total calorie intake for the day is below what you expend, it doesn't matter long-term.
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    I usually take in a casein based shake, with a scoop of Fiberteq from VPX. It's worked out well thus far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumpDogg View Post
    Skip the shake in my opinion, it spikes insulin levels which u dont want as u lay down. Use BCAAS right before bed and upon waking, wait 20 minutes b4 u eat in the morning. Killer fat loss aide

    If you have the powder form will this still apply?
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    I'm curious tho, my shake which contains a mix of 4 proteins contains like 2g of carb per 40g serving.... but the cassien I find to buy contains like 8g per 40g of serving... thus how's it better than my standard????

    My standard contains MPI, milk protein anyways... would it be k?

    Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdelV View Post
    I'm curious tho, my shake which contains a mix of 4 proteins contains like 2g of carb per 40g serving.... but the cassien I find to buy contains like 8g per 40g of serving... thus how's it better than my standard????

    My standard contains MPI, milk protein anyways... would it be k?

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    Whilst cutting, I have a 40-50g protein shake using MPI or just Micellar Casein along with some extra fiber and fish oil. I then make up a drink with about 15-20g of BCAA and drink that if I wake up at some point throughout the night and when I wake up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Whilst cutting, I have a 40-50g protein shake using MPI or just Micellar Casein along with some extra fiber and fish oil. I then make up a drink with about 15-20g of BCAA and drink that if I wake up at some point throughout the night and when I wake up.
    You don't think straight leucine would be better? I'd be thinking about blood sugar level rise from gluconeogenesis with taking that much of BCAAs middle of the night (plus the question of whether short term high BCAA usage actually increases protein oxidation 2-3 hours afterwards without additional protien infusion)
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You don't think straight leucine would be better? I'd be thinking about blood sugar level rise from gluconeogenesis with taking that much of BCAAs middle of the night (plus the question of whether short term high BCAA usage actually increases protein oxidation 2-3 hours afterwards without additional protien infusion)
    Completely agree with this statement. Research has shown that protein synthesis decreases at a much faster rate after consumption of BCAAs compared to amino acids from whole foods or even whey protein. The decrease in protein synthesis corresponds to the supply of amino acids to the body from the protein source. This tells us that BCAAs are only a good source of amino acids IF you are able to ingest more amino acids in a relatively short period of time, i.e. 1 hour later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You don't think straight leucine would be better? I'd be thinking about blood sugar level rise from gluconeogenesis with taking that much of BCAAs middle of the night (plus the question of whether short term high BCAA usage actually increases protein oxidation 2-3 hours afterwards without additional protien infusion)
    I mix it with about 20 oz of water and maybe drink about 6 of it during the night. The blood sugar rise from this would be very, very tiny and that's assuming there is a response from such a small flux of glucogenic amino acids.
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    Ah thats not so bad then, you're under 8g then. thats probably not bad on the oxidation either. I've been thinking about upping my BCAA usage since being off TRT now my recovery blows
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Ah thats not so bad then, you're under 8g then. thats probably not bad on the oxidation either. I've been thinking about upping my BCAA usage since being off TRT now my recovery blows
    I also use the 4:1:1 powder instead of the standard 2:1:1.
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    What is the purpose of BCAAs...or food for that matter pre-bed?

    I honestly think you wont go catabolic in 8 hours or so...especially when your body is sleeping, a state where less energy is required.

    For fat loss purpose, calories in/calories out will dictate that.

    /broscience
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    I droped casien protein cause I could of easily get it from food and it would cost less. Just down some cottage cheese and PB before bed. Cottage cheese is casien protein and the fat in PB helps slow the digestion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niCe99 View Post
    What is the purpose of BCAAs...or food for that matter pre-bed?

    I honestly think you wont go catabolic in 8 hours or so...especially when your body is sleeping, a state where less energy is required.

    For fat loss purpose, calories in/calories out will dictate that.

    /broscience
    Cals in/cals out isn't broscience. It is thermodynamic law.

    As for the 8 hour fast, just look at the results of some of the guys doing 16hr fasts, or even alternate-day fasting! I don't see much muscle loss.
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    I'm with Robboe. You aren't losing muscle while sleeping, IF you are eating the appropriate number of calories. There's no doubt in my mind that eating before bed absolutely murders gh release, and not only may this be worse for gains than the 8hr 'fast', but it's terrible for overall health, anti-aging, and longevity.

    Eating your last food 2-3 hours before bed, and taking a gh supplement like Ghenerate would be awesome for fatloss and health. I just started Ghenerate, and I've had some awesome nights sleep.

    The only exception is if your schedule dictates a late night workout followed immediately by going to bed. I've done that by necessity for years, and it's really difficult for me to not eat after. In that case using something like LG bcaa's, or purple wraath, would be a good option. The insulin spike would be so small and transient as to not make a serious dent in gh hormone release, from what I've read.
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    Don't over look the power of Fiber. It's a extremely good appetite suppressor that will help you when your trying to sleep. It will also aid in digestion and get things moving. Psyllium husk is a excellent soure. I find it better then benefiber although benefiber is tasteless. Veggies also are excellent source of fiber and good choice before bed. Some Ideas are:

    1. Green beens and a soure of chicken.
    2. A salad with Eggs, Tuna, or Chicken
    3. Broccoli and or Cauliflower with chicken
    4. Benifiber or psyllium husk with Whole Milk
    5. Benifiber mixed in 2-4% cottage cheese.

    Tip: Make sure you don't eat earlier then 2-3 hours before bed.

    I always have success with meals like this before bed. Next morning your skin is tighter and you know your on the right track.
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    I usually don't get done training until about 6:30 and I'm in bed by 10:30. Only 1 post-training meal isn't enough for me since I'm more performance oriented as opposed to aesthetics.
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    at the end of the day your looking at calories in vs calories out. You do not have to eat 5 meals a day to lose weight. It helps to eat smaller meals though out the day because you don't get so hungry but again as long as you can get the calories you need for a negative caloric intake then you should see the results you are looking for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I usually don't get done training until about 6:30 and I'm in bed by 10:30. Only 1 post-training meal isn't enough for me since I'm more performance oriented as opposed to aesthetics.
    Rodja, me too. I'm really sensitive to food intake, and most workouts I leave pretty tapped. Not eating after just feels bad. I was doing the late night workout followed by some eaa's for a while, and started to get used to it, but if I havwe a morning mat session or training...terrible idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I usually don't get done training until about 6:30 and I'm in bed by 10:30. Only 1 post-training meal isn't enough for me since I'm more performance oriented as opposed to aesthetics.
    The GH boost will help your performance more than carbs before bed will.


    I think people seriously underestimate the importance of letting GH do it's thing while you sleep and worry too much about their body lacking some measily colories while sleeping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizmal View Post
    The GH boost will help your performance more than carbs before bed will.


    I think people seriously underestimate the importance of letting GH do it's thing while you sleep and worry too much about their body lacking some measily colories while sleeping.
    Where did I say anything about carbs before bed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You don't think straight leucine would be better? I'd be thinking about blood sugar level rise from gluconeogenesis with taking that much of BCAAs middle of the night (plus the question of whether short term high BCAA usage actually increases protein oxidation 2-3 hours afterwards without additional protien infusion)
    This is true of formulas with a traditional bias, though I have not seen evidence that leucine alone has led to increased oxidation. This is primarily because leucine, unlike isoleucine and/or valine, has been shown to increase total protein turnover and synthesis independently of hyperaminoacidemia (i.e., a substantial increase in the available AA pool), and/or activation of mTOR (via directly activating protein translation initiating factors). Due to these factors, leucine is capable of preventing muscle protein breakdown and sustain increased rates of protein synthesis sans an additional protein source, therefore largely circumventing the so-called, "protein waste" of the other amino acids.
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    Yes, this definitely has me considering buying some bulk leucine and doing the bedside nightly drink with 5-10g of it. Cheap enough too
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecupirate View Post
    at the end of the day your looking at calories in vs calories out. You do not have to eat 5 meals a day to lose weight. It helps to eat smaller meals though out the day because you don't get so hungry but again as long as you can get the calories you need for a negative caloric intake then you should see the results you are looking for.
    The body gets entrained to a particular feeding schedule if you stick to one. Some people prefer fewer, smaller meals every 3-4 hours, and their body gets accustomed to this and so they tend to get hungry every 3-4 hours. If you ate every 6-8 hours and stuck to this, eventually your body would adapt and would typically only get hungry at these times, which is why the guys fasting for 16hrs tend to rarely feel hunger during their fasting periods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizmal View Post
    The GH boost will help your performance more than carbs before bed will.


    I think people seriously underestimate the importance of letting GH do it's thing while you sleep and worry too much about their body lacking some measily colories while sleeping.
    Infantile and pubescent GH release is significant, but during adulthood only exogenous administration has any appreciable effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robboe View Post
    Infantile and pubescent GH release is significant, but during adulthood only exogenous administration has any appreciable effect.
    I've made some of the best gains in my adult life by stopping the pre-bedtime meals.

    I'm slimmer and stronger than ever and much better rested. I think you're wrong that the bodies natural GH release at night during sleep is null and void of benefits...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizmal View Post
    The GH boost will help your performance more than carbs before bed will.


    I think people seriously underestimate the importance of letting GH do it's thing while you sleep and worry too much about their body lacking some measily colories while sleeping.
    I'd put it this way, at least for me: eating before bed is good for bulking, and ultimate performance. But I think the long term effects of less GH release over a decade, or lifetime, will be way more severe than you might initially think, and far surpass any gains made by eating before bed.

    Get your total calories in 2 hours before bed, and you'll be bigger, leaner, stronger, and healthier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robboe View Post
    Cals in/cals out isn't broscience. It is thermodynamic law.

    As for the 8 hour fast, just look at the results of some of the guys doing 16hr fasts, or even alternate-day fasting! I don't see much muscle loss.
    i should have restructured that sentence :/

    but yes, i do agree people take pre-bed nutrition to serious...especially with all the casien based supplements. oh noezz must purchase very expensive casien in order to let slowly digesting protein whilst sleeping. IMO, gains with and without casien would be insignificant given that total calories that day are meet for whatever goals

    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    I'm with Robboe. You aren't losing muscle while sleeping, IF you are eating the appropriate number of calories. There's no doubt in my mind that eating before bed absolutely murders gh release, and not only may this be worse for gains than the 8hr 'fast', but it's terrible for overall health, anti-aging, and longevity.

    Eating your last food 2-3 hours before bed, and taking a gh supplement like Ghenerate would be awesome for fatloss and health. I just started Ghenerate, and I've had some awesome nights sleep.

    The only exception is if your schedule dictates a late night workout followed immediately by going to bed. I've done that by necessity for years, and it's really difficult for me to not eat after. In that case using something like LG bcaa's, or purple wraath, would be a good option. The insulin spike would be so small and transient as to not make a serious dent in gh hormone release, from what I've read.
    Do you believe in "GH Boosting" supps?

    i find it a load of crap. sleep? melatonin - 100caps for 2-5 bucks
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    I've taken GH booster once and I LOVED it. I just helps you sleep like if you were camoa patient. So better deeper sleep=more GH are released=more energy through out the day= more weights are lifted in the gym. It's nothing but bunch of wins. I've been studying Blue HGH by controlled labs and it looks like an amazing sloid product. But I'm going to run GHenerate on last month of my log, to keep it all LG, and if I get the cash Blue HGH month after that.
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    GH supplements help with the most underrated element of training: quality sleep. We're so sleep deprived as a culture that this is the area where their training lacks the most. I personally never got anything out of melatonin, but have always had great improvements in joint health and BF while using several GH supplements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niCe99 View Post



    Do you believe in "GH Boosting" supps?

    i find it a load of crap. sleep? melatonin - 100caps for 2-5 bucks
    I haven't had blood tests. I don't know what my GH levels are like on GH supps I've tried. What I do know is my sleep is deeper on some of them (and I sleep pretty good as a rule). It's not that big a leap to think that longer, better sleep will promote higher GH levels. It is known that insulin annihilates gh release. So again, it's not wild speculation that avoiding food for a couple hours pre-bed, and taking a gh supp, will increase gh levels.

    But hey, if deeper sleep is crap to you, pop a geranium cap, enjoy your late night workout, and pound a solid meal after. Me, I'll be snoozing on Ghenerate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    I haven't had blood tests. I don't know what my GH levels are like on GH supps I've tried. What I do know is my sleep is deeper on some of them (and I sleep pretty good as a rule). It's not that big a leap to think that longer, better sleep will promote higher GH levels. It is known that insulin annihilates gh release. So again, it's not wild speculation that avoiding food for a couple hours pre-bed, and taking a gh supp, will increase gh levels.

    But hey, if deeper sleep is crap to you, pop a geranium cap, enjoy your late night workout, and pound a solid meal after. Me, I'll be snoozing on Ghenerate.
    :/ where did i say good sleep is not essential?

    all im saying is...a GH booster is just an overpriced sleep aid

    but more power to you if you find a benefit from those GH boosters
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    Quote Originally Posted by niCe99 View Post
    :/ where did i say good sleep is not essential?

    all im saying is...a GH booster is just an overpriced sleep aid

    but more power to you if you find a benefit from those GH boosters
    Overpriced? Look, L-Dopa actually has studies behind it, as do other ingredients found in these expensive sleep aids.

    Do you really think playing with melatonin chronically is a good idea?

    Roman Rozencwaig, M.D. is a pioneer in research on melatonin and aging. He was the first to postulate the theory that aging is a syndrome of melatonin deficiency resulting from the gradual failure of the pineal gland. Besides his continued anti-aging research, Dr Rozencwaig has been treating patients with melatonin and cyproheptadine for a wide variety of diseases and conditions, including lung and prostate cancer Lou Gehrig's disease, Alzheimer's disease, AIDS, heart disease and stroke. Dr. Rozencwaig practices in Montreal, Canada. He is on the staff at Reddy Memorial Hospital and Bishop Medical Centre in Montreal.

    His new book, written with Hasnain Walji, Ph.D., and published by Hohm Press, is called The Melatonin And Aging Sourcebook, a comprehensive work that covers melatonin in research and clinical practice, with illustrations and an extensive bibliography.

    This interview first appeared on the website of Mediconsult It was conducted by Elsie Wagner, a Senior Medical Editor at Parkhurst Publications in Montreal. It is reprinted with her permission.

    EW: What is the most important factor with regard to melatonin and aging: the absolute quantity of the hormone or the ratio of melatonin to serotonin?

    RR: Both are important. Everything in life is relative, and a small increase in serotonin combined with a small decrease in melatonin can mean a quite dramatic change in the ratio between the two, and therefore in the signal that is transmitted.

    EW: Your paper ("The role of melatonin and serotonin in aging: Update" [Psychoneuro-endocrinology, 18(4) :283-95, 1993] co-authored by B.R. Grad) states quite definitely that the pineal gland governs aging. In your opinion, just how important is melatonin in these processes?

    RR: It is the key signal. My assistant, Adam Bly, and I have just finished an experiment using rotifers, which are single-cell organisms that live for five days. When we added melatonin to one group of rotifers from day one, their lifespan was double that of the group that received none.

    We had various groups of rotifers under different regimens of melatonin, but the average lifespan increase was in the order of 70%-to-75% over those receiving no melatonin. In addition, the pineal gland produces other melatonin-like substances in minute amounts, which we believe are used in fine-tuning the mechanism.

    I believe that over the next 50 years, as we learn more about the pineal gland, we are going to see human lifespans extend to the point where 150 years is not unusual. Many of my colleagues in this field feel the same way, though they may not have the courage to say so. Studies done by Dr. Smith found that any animal that is dead has a melatonin level of zero. That doesn't necessarily mean, of course, they if they had melatonin they would be alive. But it does suggest that when you run out of melatonin, you run out of life.

    We can regard melatonin as a kind of master hormone, which governs other hormones and bodily processes by acting as a neurochemical transducer. The pineal gland has been called the third eye, and indeed, in some reptiles, it actually sticks out of the body as an eye. In humans and other animals, it has receded into the body, but it still "looks out" via neurologic pathways, and translates environmental conditions into a biological signal: melatonin.

    EW: Some of the melatonin experiments reported in the literature, particularly rodent experiments, looked at animals that had their pineal glands removed, or at strains that were melatonin-deficient. Does the fact that restoration of normal levels of melatonin prolongs life necessarily mean that above-normal levels would prolong life longer than normal?

    RR: First, you have to ask the question: what is a normal level of melatonin? Melatonin is a hormone that is present at very high levels during childhood, and begins to drop off immediately after puberty. From that point on, it's a straight line of decline all the way to 120 years of age, at which age nobody still produces melatonin. The idea is not to supplement melatonin to abnormal levels, but to supplement it to what would be normal levels in, say, a 20-year-old. Then your other hormones and cycles will fit into that 20-year-old. Melatonin will trigger a response, but there is still some fine tuning necessary to get a full response.

    EW: What, then, is aging? Is it an inevitable process, or is it a kind of programmed self- destruction?

    RR: There is nothing inevitable about aging. Look at the trees that live thousands of years, and that have seeds that are still alive, in some cases, over two million years later. Theoretically, there's no reason for cells to stop regenerating, unless we run out of the substance that signals them to do so.

    There is a debate on whether or not the body is programmed to self-destruct. Personally, I don't believe it and some take the view that there is no defined, finite life span. If you're a physician you see people who are dying from cancer, for example, and who weigh 80 pounds, and then they recover. Many people who almost died of hunger in concentration camps are still alive 50 years later and in good shape. We have an incredible capacity to regenerate, the question is: how can we harness that capacity?

    EW: Can cells be made to regenerate indefinitely?

    RR: I believe that they can. Even though Dr. Leonard Hayflick, a great authority on aging, suggested that a cell can divide only a maximum of 50 times, we should recall that he studied a particular kind of cell-not a very important one- and perhaps, more importantly, never changed the medium in which it lived, including food and waste products.

    Theoretically, you cannot only stop aging with melatonin, but actually reverse it. This has in fact been done in practice to a certain extent. Recent research has shown how, when pineals are taken from young animals and transplanted into old animals, and vice versa, the old animals became young and started to produce offspring, and the young animals became sick and died. Of course, it can't make you regress into childhood! But theoretically, it could take a person back to a point where their body is like that of a young adult, which is the optimal point of human existence in terms of mature health.

    EW: How are melatonin supplements taken?

    RR: First of all, they should be taken only at night. Taking melatonin during the daytime can cause it to have effects opposite to those desired. It can, for example, actually increase rather than reduce the risk of cancer. I personally take melatonin regularly and begin with a dose of 3 mg at sunset, followed by another 3 mg just before going to bed.

    Some people say that's a very high dose, but when you compare it with the 300 mg given in melatonin birth control pills, it doesn't seem like so much. Because melatonin has a very short half-life in the human body, most of it will be eliminated in the urine anyway, but first much of it is metabolized into a derivative called 6-hydroxymelatonin, which has melatonin-like effects. That means that the hormone has a kind of double hit or second passage through the body.

    EW: Do melatonin supplements have any side effects?

    RR: Here are a few. First of all, it acts as a contraceptive, certainly in women, and perhaps also in men. Theoretically, it should lower sperm counts, but studies have not yet been able to prove this effect in practice. It's an interesting phenomenon, because one of the questions about melatonin is: what will happen to the Earth's population if people start to live dramatically longer lives? And the answer is that there will not be a population explosionbecause melatonin has a built-in safety factor, if we can put it that way, because of its contraceptive effects.

    There is currently a study taking place in about 2,000 women who are taking melatonin for birth control, in a massive dose of 300 mg per day combined with progesterone. This contraceptive effect has been studied now for at least two years. It's been proven that melatonin contraceptives actually protect against breast cancer.

    Another side effect is that melatonin can produce quite vivid dreams, and that may mean the occasional nightmare. People who are manic (who have bipolar disorder) will tend to become more manic; it's not a good hormone for people who are in a psychotic state.

    Finally, people with autoimmune diseases, in which the body attacks its own cells, should not take melatonin because the hormone tends to stimulate the immune system. These diseases include rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, lupus and scleroderma, which are not particularly common compared to the diseases that cause the majority of deaths: cancer, atherosclerotic heart disease and strokes.

    This interview first appeared on the website of Mediconsult (http://www.mediconsult.com). It was conducted by Elsie Wagner a Senior Medical Editor at Parkhurst Publications in Montreal. It is reprinted with her permission. (c) 1996 Elsie Wagner]
    I don't believe melatonin is something to be trifled with on a whim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Overpriced? Look, L-Dopa actually has studies behind it, as do other ingredients found in these expensive sleep aids.

    Do you really think playing with melatonin chronically is a good idea?



    I don't believe melatonin is something to be trifled with on a whim.
    i generally dont use melatonin chronically. MAYBE once every 2 weeks if i need it

    If anything, i recommend setting up a good sleeping pattern and sticking to it rather than relying on such herbs to sleep.

    again, more power to you if you find it helps you.
  

  
 

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