morry
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I tried to reorganize the post by suggestion because I would like some feedback and my original was too long. You will get what I'm palnning to cycle in the top portion, the bottom more explains all the other aspects and may help understand a little more, but it isn't necessary to the immediate question.
I'm hoping some real veterans can look at this and see how hard I've worked to put everything together and I need your input, I'm about to go on a crazy cyle IMO.
EDIT-------------
Here is what I'm about to try, I would like some feedback. I have read a ton about this stuff and I haven't seen anybody do what I'm about to do. I have the money to purchase all of this and will be doing so over the next few days. I understand the risk and would appreciate positive, constructive feedback. Say what you want, but I'm looking for help is what I'm getting at, not a bash session.
I'm going to purchase Yohimbe ES (topical), AIFM, Epistane, Letro, Cabergoline, Clenbuterol.
Dosed something like this (HELP!),
(I'll wait a week to add epistane to account for the taper up of Letro and Clen)
Both Yohimbe ES and AIFM will be applied directly to my chest concentrating on the lower chest and nipple area and the area going into my armpit because that is where the fat is concentrated
-----------
Clen- I'm sensitive to this stuff and it makes my appetite soar, so I'm going to start at 20mcgs and go to either 60 or 100 depending on sides, running for 6 weeks, taking benedryl at night (here comes the shivers
)
-----------
Letro- .5 increased by .5 ED until I hit 2.5 mg ED, till day 30 (day 30 of running it 2.5, so not including taper up), then the taper starts back down to .5mg while beginning tamoxifen starting first day of taper until tamox is ran for at least 30 days if not 45 and letro is completely stopped, I'll have enough tamox on hand to do this and it is the true 20 version 30.4, but the citrate makes it 20mg.
-----------
Yohimbe ES- 3 squirts Pre-workout (should I run (cardio) everyday too even with CLEN and apply this stuff before the run too, I can MAKE time to run and I enjoy it so it isn't a big deal), should be a six week supply, but 4 is good either way, I'll use it until it runs out
-----------
AIFM - 3 squirts a day probably at night when test is the lowest (or should I do it first thing in the morning, or right after a shower and "exfoliating"), should be a six week supply, but 4 is good as well and I'll use it until it runs out
-----------
Cabergoline- .5mg EOD until I see the other lump go away or I run out, which by my numbers is a 60 day supply from the dragon (even if it isn't progesterin based, it will help libido) and YES I did read the heart valve study that everybody runs scared of, those people had a disease already and were on all sorts of stuff for it, I'm pretty healthy, don't drink or smoke and am very active for a guy that also works a desk job during the week (outside on the weekends.....just for fun.....seriously)
-----------
Epistane- Use IBE, 90 caps, 10mg per cap and will follow 30/30/30/40 because of my experience with PH, I will be one cap short my last day and I don't care, I'm not buying 2 bottles for one cap and I'm not taking more than 40 mg of a methyl
My idea behind this is, I know my estrogen levels will be non-existent, but the CLEN will keep me anabolic and won't let me loose all of my gains but will help burn the fat the Yohimbe ES releases into my system, the Caber and Epistane (and Yohimbe ES to a lesser extent) will control and help my libido (while epistane has been reported to help gyno too), the Letro and AIFM will kill estrogen, one systematically (letro) and the other locally (aifm) while the Yohimbe ES binds the A2 receptors (I have to have a lot bc the build up of fat in my chest) and releases the fat into my system.
If I gain a couple pounds of lean mass, good for me, but I won't be upset if I just stay at my weight or lost a pound or two, I want to keep the stength I have though.
This routine should taget every cause of gyno, both glandular and fat and should allow for it to reduce. If this doesn't work, I'm getting surgery but that is a few years off regardless.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of extra info below, but above is my plan. That should take care of any chest fat or glands if progress can be made.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've never posted before but I have been reading on different forums for years. I have cycled all sorts of stuff, M1t (even the MuscleSystems seem to have less shut down making me think it is partly bunk or under dosed), M1t/4ad (can't buy this stuff anymore but it was freaking amazing), Mag 10, superdrol and I think that's it for PH/Legal Roids. I've taken peg-mgf, igf lr3 (both with 19 gauge slins), clen, t3, tamoxifen, clomid, letro, and I have used ripping gel ( a long time ago). My point is I have been around the block with PH/legal roids and research chems
About 4 years ago I found my sweet spot in all my research and for once I was ripped, extreamly low bf (7-8%) with lots of strength to go along with it, but I am about to try something for this condition (becasue even then I had fat on my chest). It is mostly psudeo gyno bc it isn't hard, you can squezze it just like the bit of fat around my belly button. On my left side I can feel a very small (pea sized) mass, and I have felt that on both sides (thanks superdrol) before, but with very high dosages of Letro (2.5 ED for 2 months) it went away completly on the right and now just a little on the left. I have puffy nipples with it is hot too. When it's cool or I'm right out of the shower though I have perfect shape and you can't even tell there is fat on my chest. I work outside and I like to tan so I'm sick of having puffy nipples especially when I bend over (it points like a chics tit, makes me want to puke), but the rest of my physique is more than I could hope for. I work very hard and I'll list my stats here shortly. I get compliments on my physique commonly and I welcome them but I know my chest is the weakest part of my physique (not in strength but aesthetically). My chest fat was never really all that bad, but during my first reduction cycle (to reduce gyno, 2.5 ed Letro for 3 months), I started dating this gorgeous chic and lost my libido a couple times and she freaked thinking I wasn't attracted to her so I flipped out (letro helps with this) and got off letro way too quick, just tapering no clomid this time because clomid CAUSES gyno for me after I stop taking it regardless of the taper. The bump on my left got larger and I was broke (no cash for Letro), but recently (past 4 months) I have been able to go through a bottle of Letro and taper it, moving onto tamoxfen with great success and no rebound. the bump is still slightly there but almost unnoticeable, but the fat just collected and collected. I have calipers and I am around 9% BF, I have an 8 pack and would consider myself very lean. My diet is perfect, I eat 6-7 times a day and my ratio of protein/carb/fat is 50/35/15, a good chunk of the carbs are injested postwork at a 2.5:1 ratio (sucrose and dextrose), for instance 150 grams sucrose/dextrose to 60 or 70 grams whey protien isolate. I take liver support, vitaman E, multi-vitamen, alpha lipoic, joint support, vitamen C (via 100% pineapple juice mixed in with my protien shake, 8oz has 100% of an "average" person's diet, I drink around 12 oz a day), fish oil (3 times a day).
My stats
199 lbs
27 years young
6'0 or 6'1'' depending who you ask
9% BF (via calipers)
Maxs
Bench- 325
Squat-415
Deadlift-425
I currently do a 3 day split and take a day off (on the day off, I will run around 3 or 4 miles straight at a 6.0mph pace with 5 min warm-up and cool-down, but I don't always run this now, but given my protocol below I will be adding more cardio if you guys suggest I do so)
I did cardio everyday to the tune of 2-4 miles but quit because my gains stopped and now only do cardio around 4 times a month if that.
My split is a strange one that I created (or stole it and don't remember where so I'm crediting myself for the time being), but it works well and it sheds fat like crazy, super-set (this ends up being my cardio, but the cardio I mentioned above I'm speaking of running, not super-setting, but this is why I only "run" 4 times a month) two muscle groups with slight overlay, goes like this, Back/shoulders-Chest/abs-Legs/arms (Back and legs HAVE to be split up bc the strain on my lower back and needed recovery time because I do deadlifts and then squats on those individual days).
When I was 6-7% bodyfat I still had fat on my chest, but I was so lean and it wasn't bad unless I bent over you really couldn't notice it.
I just got off MuscleSystems M1t with a solid PCT and I'm recovered from it and back to making regular gains (I do hit plateaus, but I've been working out long enough, I just switch stuff up in my routine and break through it, for instance, I'll slow reps down, cycle heavy to light, change my days around, or switch to dumbells instead of the bar and eventually I'll push through the strength plateua). I'm one of those guys that doens't keep a log because i can rememeber everything I lift, everytime, as long as I'm matching or going up in weight, i won't keep a log, too much time writing, not enough pumping weights.
I will purchase what I need to from a research company (the one that always ships same day and it get to me in 2 days even though he is on the other coast, love dragon's, ya know?)
Epistane will be off the auctioin site, Yohimbe and AIFM from some online store, but it's legit, no worries there
My PCT will be Tamoxifen 60/40/20/10(while tapering Letro), SARMS S4 (50mg for 30 days) and I'm toying with the idea of running IFG-LR3 during the PCT at 120 MCG EOD (10 vial kit), expensive though so I'm not sure but I've never used SARMS S4)
Total length of the cycle including PCT will be 60 days with the exception of tamoxifen which I am thinking of staying on a low dose (10mg) because it boost test, it's cheap, and at that dosage I have no libido issues, but I'll see what the transformation looks like and decide then, I haven't had any vision sides expect when I'm on 60 mg a day and it is exactly what the describe, weird lights and aurora's but if you are expecting it, it doesn't really bother me, even driving at night.
I will also be taking creatine with BCAA's from walmart for 60 days (30 days "on cycle" ( i put it like that bc the epistane, but I'm considering this whole thing one super cycle) and 30 off cycle (PCT time) (2 scoops a day, one before and one right after workout).
My diet looks like this,
1st meal
I eat 1.5 cups of Go Lean (the one with 13 grams protien per cup) every morning and for the "milk" I use 4 oz soy milk (Soy Slenda, great product!), 4 oz pineapple juice, water, and 50 grams whey protein isolate (I only end up using about about a third of it in the cereal, I drink the rest),
2nd Meal (in a shake, drank over a two hour period)
50 Grams whey protien isolate, 4 oz pineaplle juice, 4 oz soy milk, 24 oz water
3rd meal
Salad with 1.5 cups iceburg, 1/4 green pepper, 1/4 cucumber, jalapeno ranch (for my fatty acids, around 10 grams by how much I add), 1/2 can chicken (32 grams protien, not washed, I leave the sodium in there to help recover electrolytes), .5 cup northern beans (for complex carbs and a little beg protien), and 2 tbls southwest spicy mustard (has no real caloric benefit, just taste good)
3rd meal
Same as 2nd except there is a bannana in it instead of pineapple juice
4th Meal
Post Workout, 150 grams sucrose/dextrose with 60-70 grams protien isolate
5th meal
Same as 3rd
6th meal
25 grams Casien Protien with either a bannana blended in or pineapple juice
I drink at least a gallon and a half of water a day if not more.
I pieced this way of eating with the idea of keeping a positive nitogen balance throughout the day and night, getting healthy complex carbs for daily energy, replenishing my glycogen stores daily because my 3 day split, creating an insulin surge right after workout, and pairing simple, but natural sugars with my protein shakes during the day (which should do two things, one is replace liver glycogen, the other is to keep "fuel" in the body so the protein is used for muscle building and not energy). It also has a good ratio of protien to carbs to fats.
What kind of sides can I expect? Will I be able to put on mass using this routine? More importanly will the fat finally shed and I will have my answer to whether I need to go under the knife (I've read of complications and reoccurances, contour problems and tons of stuff)?
If I can get some decent feed back, i will post pics of the before and after to help all you guys out that have this problem. This cycle is a bit expensive but beats the hell out of 4500 for surgery with the risk of all the complications and being out of the gym for 6 weeks, not really for taking breaks like that, I love working out.
You are welcome to critique any of my routine, it has taken me years to get this right, but I don't even think I've scratched the surface, there are so many of you out there that could help out.
Thank you guys in advance for the read and I can't wait to hear what you got to say.
Morry
I'm hoping some real veterans can look at this and see how hard I've worked to put everything together and I need your input, I'm about to go on a crazy cyle IMO.
EDIT-------------
Here is what I'm about to try, I would like some feedback. I have read a ton about this stuff and I haven't seen anybody do what I'm about to do. I have the money to purchase all of this and will be doing so over the next few days. I understand the risk and would appreciate positive, constructive feedback. Say what you want, but I'm looking for help is what I'm getting at, not a bash session.
I'm going to purchase Yohimbe ES (topical), AIFM, Epistane, Letro, Cabergoline, Clenbuterol.
Dosed something like this (HELP!),
(I'll wait a week to add epistane to account for the taper up of Letro and Clen)
Both Yohimbe ES and AIFM will be applied directly to my chest concentrating on the lower chest and nipple area and the area going into my armpit because that is where the fat is concentrated
-----------
Clen- I'm sensitive to this stuff and it makes my appetite soar, so I'm going to start at 20mcgs and go to either 60 or 100 depending on sides, running for 6 weeks, taking benedryl at night (here comes the shivers
)-----------
Letro- .5 increased by .5 ED until I hit 2.5 mg ED, till day 30 (day 30 of running it 2.5, so not including taper up), then the taper starts back down to .5mg while beginning tamoxifen starting first day of taper until tamox is ran for at least 30 days if not 45 and letro is completely stopped, I'll have enough tamox on hand to do this and it is the true 20 version 30.4, but the citrate makes it 20mg.
-----------
Yohimbe ES- 3 squirts Pre-workout (should I run (cardio) everyday too even with CLEN and apply this stuff before the run too, I can MAKE time to run and I enjoy it so it isn't a big deal), should be a six week supply, but 4 is good either way, I'll use it until it runs out
-----------
AIFM - 3 squirts a day probably at night when test is the lowest (or should I do it first thing in the morning, or right after a shower and "exfoliating"), should be a six week supply, but 4 is good as well and I'll use it until it runs out
-----------
Cabergoline- .5mg EOD until I see the other lump go away or I run out, which by my numbers is a 60 day supply from the dragon (even if it isn't progesterin based, it will help libido) and YES I did read the heart valve study that everybody runs scared of, those people had a disease already and were on all sorts of stuff for it, I'm pretty healthy, don't drink or smoke and am very active for a guy that also works a desk job during the week (outside on the weekends.....just for fun.....seriously)
-----------
Epistane- Use IBE, 90 caps, 10mg per cap and will follow 30/30/30/40 because of my experience with PH, I will be one cap short my last day and I don't care, I'm not buying 2 bottles for one cap and I'm not taking more than 40 mg of a methyl
My idea behind this is, I know my estrogen levels will be non-existent, but the CLEN will keep me anabolic and won't let me loose all of my gains but will help burn the fat the Yohimbe ES releases into my system, the Caber and Epistane (and Yohimbe ES to a lesser extent) will control and help my libido (while epistane has been reported to help gyno too), the Letro and AIFM will kill estrogen, one systematically (letro) and the other locally (aifm) while the Yohimbe ES binds the A2 receptors (I have to have a lot bc the build up of fat in my chest) and releases the fat into my system.
If I gain a couple pounds of lean mass, good for me, but I won't be upset if I just stay at my weight or lost a pound or two, I want to keep the stength I have though.
This routine should taget every cause of gyno, both glandular and fat and should allow for it to reduce. If this doesn't work, I'm getting surgery but that is a few years off regardless.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of extra info below, but above is my plan. That should take care of any chest fat or glands if progress can be made.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've never posted before but I have been reading on different forums for years. I have cycled all sorts of stuff, M1t (even the MuscleSystems seem to have less shut down making me think it is partly bunk or under dosed), M1t/4ad (can't buy this stuff anymore but it was freaking amazing), Mag 10, superdrol and I think that's it for PH/Legal Roids. I've taken peg-mgf, igf lr3 (both with 19 gauge slins), clen, t3, tamoxifen, clomid, letro, and I have used ripping gel ( a long time ago). My point is I have been around the block with PH/legal roids and research chems
About 4 years ago I found my sweet spot in all my research and for once I was ripped, extreamly low bf (7-8%) with lots of strength to go along with it, but I am about to try something for this condition (becasue even then I had fat on my chest). It is mostly psudeo gyno bc it isn't hard, you can squezze it just like the bit of fat around my belly button. On my left side I can feel a very small (pea sized) mass, and I have felt that on both sides (thanks superdrol) before, but with very high dosages of Letro (2.5 ED for 2 months) it went away completly on the right and now just a little on the left. I have puffy nipples with it is hot too. When it's cool or I'm right out of the shower though I have perfect shape and you can't even tell there is fat on my chest. I work outside and I like to tan so I'm sick of having puffy nipples especially when I bend over (it points like a chics tit, makes me want to puke), but the rest of my physique is more than I could hope for. I work very hard and I'll list my stats here shortly. I get compliments on my physique commonly and I welcome them but I know my chest is the weakest part of my physique (not in strength but aesthetically). My chest fat was never really all that bad, but during my first reduction cycle (to reduce gyno, 2.5 ed Letro for 3 months), I started dating this gorgeous chic and lost my libido a couple times and she freaked thinking I wasn't attracted to her so I flipped out (letro helps with this) and got off letro way too quick, just tapering no clomid this time because clomid CAUSES gyno for me after I stop taking it regardless of the taper. The bump on my left got larger and I was broke (no cash for Letro), but recently (past 4 months) I have been able to go through a bottle of Letro and taper it, moving onto tamoxfen with great success and no rebound. the bump is still slightly there but almost unnoticeable, but the fat just collected and collected. I have calipers and I am around 9% BF, I have an 8 pack and would consider myself very lean. My diet is perfect, I eat 6-7 times a day and my ratio of protein/carb/fat is 50/35/15, a good chunk of the carbs are injested postwork at a 2.5:1 ratio (sucrose and dextrose), for instance 150 grams sucrose/dextrose to 60 or 70 grams whey protien isolate. I take liver support, vitaman E, multi-vitamen, alpha lipoic, joint support, vitamen C (via 100% pineapple juice mixed in with my protien shake, 8oz has 100% of an "average" person's diet, I drink around 12 oz a day), fish oil (3 times a day).
My stats
199 lbs
27 years young
6'0 or 6'1'' depending who you ask
9% BF (via calipers)
Maxs
Bench- 325
Squat-415
Deadlift-425
I currently do a 3 day split and take a day off (on the day off, I will run around 3 or 4 miles straight at a 6.0mph pace with 5 min warm-up and cool-down, but I don't always run this now, but given my protocol below I will be adding more cardio if you guys suggest I do so)
I did cardio everyday to the tune of 2-4 miles but quit because my gains stopped and now only do cardio around 4 times a month if that.
My split is a strange one that I created (or stole it and don't remember where so I'm crediting myself for the time being), but it works well and it sheds fat like crazy, super-set (this ends up being my cardio, but the cardio I mentioned above I'm speaking of running, not super-setting, but this is why I only "run" 4 times a month) two muscle groups with slight overlay, goes like this, Back/shoulders-Chest/abs-Legs/arms (Back and legs HAVE to be split up bc the strain on my lower back and needed recovery time because I do deadlifts and then squats on those individual days).
When I was 6-7% bodyfat I still had fat on my chest, but I was so lean and it wasn't bad unless I bent over you really couldn't notice it.
I just got off MuscleSystems M1t with a solid PCT and I'm recovered from it and back to making regular gains (I do hit plateaus, but I've been working out long enough, I just switch stuff up in my routine and break through it, for instance, I'll slow reps down, cycle heavy to light, change my days around, or switch to dumbells instead of the bar and eventually I'll push through the strength plateua). I'm one of those guys that doens't keep a log because i can rememeber everything I lift, everytime, as long as I'm matching or going up in weight, i won't keep a log, too much time writing, not enough pumping weights.
I will purchase what I need to from a research company (the one that always ships same day and it get to me in 2 days even though he is on the other coast, love dragon's, ya know?)
Epistane will be off the auctioin site, Yohimbe and AIFM from some online store, but it's legit, no worries there
My PCT will be Tamoxifen 60/40/20/10(while tapering Letro), SARMS S4 (50mg for 30 days) and I'm toying with the idea of running IFG-LR3 during the PCT at 120 MCG EOD (10 vial kit), expensive though so I'm not sure but I've never used SARMS S4)
Total length of the cycle including PCT will be 60 days with the exception of tamoxifen which I am thinking of staying on a low dose (10mg) because it boost test, it's cheap, and at that dosage I have no libido issues, but I'll see what the transformation looks like and decide then, I haven't had any vision sides expect when I'm on 60 mg a day and it is exactly what the describe, weird lights and aurora's but if you are expecting it, it doesn't really bother me, even driving at night.
I will also be taking creatine with BCAA's from walmart for 60 days (30 days "on cycle" ( i put it like that bc the epistane, but I'm considering this whole thing one super cycle) and 30 off cycle (PCT time) (2 scoops a day, one before and one right after workout).
My diet looks like this,
1st meal
I eat 1.5 cups of Go Lean (the one with 13 grams protien per cup) every morning and for the "milk" I use 4 oz soy milk (Soy Slenda, great product!), 4 oz pineapple juice, water, and 50 grams whey protein isolate (I only end up using about about a third of it in the cereal, I drink the rest),
2nd Meal (in a shake, drank over a two hour period)
50 Grams whey protien isolate, 4 oz pineaplle juice, 4 oz soy milk, 24 oz water
3rd meal
Salad with 1.5 cups iceburg, 1/4 green pepper, 1/4 cucumber, jalapeno ranch (for my fatty acids, around 10 grams by how much I add), 1/2 can chicken (32 grams protien, not washed, I leave the sodium in there to help recover electrolytes), .5 cup northern beans (for complex carbs and a little beg protien), and 2 tbls southwest spicy mustard (has no real caloric benefit, just taste good)
3rd meal
Same as 2nd except there is a bannana in it instead of pineapple juice
4th Meal
Post Workout, 150 grams sucrose/dextrose with 60-70 grams protien isolate
5th meal
Same as 3rd
6th meal
25 grams Casien Protien with either a bannana blended in or pineapple juice
I drink at least a gallon and a half of water a day if not more.
I pieced this way of eating with the idea of keeping a positive nitogen balance throughout the day and night, getting healthy complex carbs for daily energy, replenishing my glycogen stores daily because my 3 day split, creating an insulin surge right after workout, and pairing simple, but natural sugars with my protein shakes during the day (which should do two things, one is replace liver glycogen, the other is to keep "fuel" in the body so the protein is used for muscle building and not energy). It also has a good ratio of protien to carbs to fats.
What kind of sides can I expect? Will I be able to put on mass using this routine? More importanly will the fat finally shed and I will have my answer to whether I need to go under the knife (I've read of complications and reoccurances, contour problems and tons of stuff)?
If I can get some decent feed back, i will post pics of the before and after to help all you guys out that have this problem. This cycle is a bit expensive but beats the hell out of 4500 for surgery with the risk of all the complications and being out of the gym for 6 weeks, not really for taking breaks like that, I love working out.
You are welcome to critique any of my routine, it has taken me years to get this right, but I don't even think I've scratched the surface, there are so many of you out there that could help out.
Thank you guys in advance for the read and I can't wait to hear what you got to say.
Morry
