Gyno (psuedo partly) reduction cycle
08-29-2010 11:56 AM
Gyno (psuedo partly) reduction cycle
I tried to reorganize the post by suggestion because I would like some feedback and my original was too long. You will get what I'm palnning to cycle in the top portion, the bottom more explains all the other aspects and may help understand a little more, but it isn't necessary to the immediate question.
I'm hoping some real veterans can look at this and see how hard I've worked to put everything together and I need your input, I'm about to go on a crazy cyle IMO.
Here is what I'm about to try, I would like some feedback. I have read a ton about this stuff and I haven't seen anybody do what I'm about to do. I have the money to purchase all of this and will be doing so over the next few days. I understand the risk and would appreciate positive, constructive feedback. Say what you want, but I'm looking for help is what I'm getting at, not a bash session.
I'm going to purchase Yohimbe ES (topical), AIFM, Epistane, Letro, Cabergoline, Clenbuterol.
Dosed something like this (HELP!),
(I'll wait a week to add epistane to account for the taper up of Letro and Clen)
Both Yohimbe ES and AIFM will be applied directly to my chest concentrating on the lower chest and nipple area and the area going into my armpit because that is where the fat is concentrated
Clen- I'm sensitive to this stuff and it makes my appetite soar, so I'm going to start at 20mcgs and go to either 60 or 100 depending on sides, running for 6 weeks, taking benedryl at night (here comes the shivers )
Letro- .5 increased by .5 ED until I hit 2.5 mg ED, till day 30 (day 30 of running it 2.5, so not including taper up), then the taper starts back down to .5mg while beginning tamoxifen starting first day of taper until tamox is ran for at least 30 days if not 45 and letro is completely stopped, I'll have enough tamox on hand to do this and it is the true 20 version 30.4, but the citrate makes it 20mg.
Yohimbe ES- 3 squirts Pre-workout (should I run (cardio) everyday too even with CLEN and apply this stuff before the run too, I can MAKE time to run and I enjoy it so it isn't a big deal), should be a six week supply, but 4 is good either way, I'll use it until it runs out
AIFM - 3 squirts a day probably at night when test is the lowest (or should I do it first thing in the morning, or right after a shower and "exfoliating"), should be a six week supply, but 4 is good as well and I'll use it until it runs out
Cabergoline- .5mg EOD until I see the other lump go away or I run out, which by my numbers is a 60 day supply from the dragon (even if it isn't progesterin based, it will help libido) and YES I did read the heart valve study that everybody runs scared of, those people had a disease already and were on all sorts of stuff for it, I'm pretty healthy, don't drink or smoke and am very active for a guy that also works a desk job during the week (outside on the weekends.....just for fun.....seriously)
Epistane- Use IBE, 90 caps, 10mg per cap and will follow 30/30/30/40 because of my experience with PH, I will be one cap short my last day and I don't care, I'm not buying 2 bottles for one cap and I'm not taking more than 40 mg of a methyl
My idea behind this is, I know my estrogen levels will be non-existent, but the CLEN will keep me anabolic and won't let me loose all of my gains but will help burn the fat the Yohimbe ES releases into my system, the Caber and Epistane (and Yohimbe ES to a lesser extent) will control and help my libido (while epistane has been reported to help gyno too), the Letro and AIFM will kill estrogen, one systematically (letro) and the other locally (aifm) while the Yohimbe ES binds the A2 receptors (I have to have a lot bc the build up of fat in my chest) and releases the fat into my system.
If I gain a couple pounds of lean mass, good for me, but I won't be upset if I just stay at my weight or lost a pound or two, I want to keep the stength I have though.
This routine should taget every cause of gyno, both glandular and fat and should allow for it to reduce. If this doesn't work, I'm getting surgery but that is a few years off regardless.
Lots of extra info below, but above is my plan. That should take care of any chest fat or glands if progress can be made.
I've never posted before but I have been reading on different forums for years. I have cycled all sorts of stuff, M1t (even the MuscleSystems seem to have less shut down making me think it is partly bunk or under dosed), M1t/4ad (can't buy this stuff anymore but it was freaking amazing), Mag 10, superdrol and I think that's it for PH/Legal Roids. I've taken peg-mgf, igf lr3 (both with 19 gauge slins), clen, t3, tamoxifen, clomid, letro, and I have used ripping gel ( a long time ago). My point is I have been around the block with PH/legal roids and research chems
About 4 years ago I found my sweet spot in all my research and for once I was ripped, extreamly low bf (7-8%) with lots of strength to go along with it, but I am about to try something for this condition (becasue even then I had fat on my chest). It is mostly psudeo gyno bc it isn't hard, you can squezze it just like the bit of fat around my belly button. On my left side I can feel a very small (pea sized) mass, and I have felt that on both sides (thanks superdrol) before, but with very high dosages of Letro (2.5 ED for 2 months) it went away completly on the right and now just a little on the left. I have puffy nipples with it is hot too. When it's cool or I'm right out of the shower though I have perfect shape and you can't even tell there is fat on my chest. I work outside and I like to tan so I'm sick of having puffy nipples especially when I bend over (it points like a chics tit, makes me want to puke), but the rest of my physique is more than I could hope for. I work very hard and I'll list my stats here shortly. I get compliments on my physique commonly and I welcome them but I know my chest is the weakest part of my physique (not in strength but aesthetically). My chest fat was never really all that bad, but during my first reduction cycle (to reduce gyno, 2.5 ed Letro for 3 months), I started dating this gorgeous chic and lost my libido a couple times and she freaked thinking I wasn't attracted to her so I flipped out (letro helps with this) and got off letro way too quick, just tapering no clomid this time because clomid CAUSES gyno for me after I stop taking it regardless of the taper. The bump on my left got larger and I was broke (no cash for Letro), but recently (past 4 months) I have been able to go through a bottle of Letro and taper it, moving onto tamoxfen with great success and no rebound. the bump is still slightly there but almost unnoticeable, but the fat just collected and collected. I have calipers and I am around 9% BF, I have an 8 pack and would consider myself very lean. My diet is perfect, I eat 6-7 times a day and my ratio of protein/carb/fat is 50/35/15, a good chunk of the carbs are injested postwork at a 2.5:1 ratio (sucrose and dextrose), for instance 150 grams sucrose/dextrose to 60 or 70 grams whey protien isolate. I take liver support, vitaman E, multi-vitamen, alpha lipoic, joint support, vitamen C (via 100% pineapple juice mixed in with my protien shake, 8oz has 100% of an "average" person's diet, I drink around 12 oz a day), fish oil (3 times a day).
27 years young
6'0 or 6'1'' depending who you ask
9% BF (via calipers)
I currently do a 3 day split and take a day off (on the day off, I will run around 3 or 4 miles straight at a 6.0mph pace with 5 min warm-up and cool-down, but I don't always run this now, but given my protocol below I will be adding more cardio if you guys suggest I do so)
I did cardio everyday to the tune of 2-4 miles but quit because my gains stopped and now only do cardio around 4 times a month if that.
My split is a strange one that I created (or stole it and don't remember where so I'm crediting myself for the time being), but it works well and it sheds fat like crazy, super-set (this ends up being my cardio, but the cardio I mentioned above I'm speaking of running, not super-setting, but this is why I only "run" 4 times a month) two muscle groups with slight overlay, goes like this, Back/shoulders-Chest/abs-Legs/arms (Back and legs HAVE to be split up bc the strain on my lower back and needed recovery time because I do deadlifts and then squats on those individual days).
When I was 6-7% bodyfat I still had fat on my chest, but I was so lean and it wasn't bad unless I bent over you really couldn't notice it.
I just got off MuscleSystems M1t with a solid PCT and I'm recovered from it and back to making regular gains (I do hit plateaus, but I've been working out long enough, I just switch stuff up in my routine and break through it, for instance, I'll slow reps down, cycle heavy to light, change my days around, or switch to dumbells instead of the bar and eventually I'll push through the strength plateua). I'm one of those guys that doens't keep a log because i can rememeber everything I lift, everytime, as long as I'm matching or going up in weight, i won't keep a log, too much time writing, not enough pumping weights.
I will purchase what I need to from a research company (the one that always ships same day and it get to me in 2 days even though he is on the other coast, love dragon's, ya know?)
Epistane will be off the auctioin site, Yohimbe and AIFM from some online store, but it's legit, no worries there
My PCT will be Tamoxifen 60/40/20/10(while tapering Letro), SARMS S4 (50mg for 30 days) and I'm toying with the idea of running IFG-LR3 during the PCT at 120 MCG EOD (10 vial kit), expensive though so I'm not sure but I've never used SARMS S4)
Total length of the cycle including PCT will be 60 days with the exception of tamoxifen which I am thinking of staying on a low dose (10mg) because it boost test, it's cheap, and at that dosage I have no libido issues, but I'll see what the transformation looks like and decide then, I haven't had any vision sides expect when I'm on 60 mg a day and it is exactly what the describe, weird lights and aurora's but if you are expecting it, it doesn't really bother me, even driving at night.
I will also be taking creatine with BCAA's from walmart for 60 days (30 days "on cycle" ( i put it like that bc the epistane, but I'm considering this whole thing one super cycle) and 30 off cycle (PCT time) (2 scoops a day, one before and one right after workout).
My diet looks like this,
I eat 1.5 cups of Go Lean (the one with 13 grams protien per cup) every morning and for the "milk" I use 4 oz soy milk (Soy Slenda, great product!), 4 oz pineapple juice, water, and 50 grams whey protein isolate (I only end up using about about a third of it in the cereal, I drink the rest),
2nd Meal (in a shake, drank over a two hour period)
50 Grams whey protien isolate, 4 oz pineaplle juice, 4 oz soy milk, 24 oz water
Salad with 1.5 cups iceburg, 1/4 green pepper, 1/4 cucumber, jalapeno ranch (for my fatty acids, around 10 grams by how much I add), 1/2 can chicken (32 grams protien, not washed, I leave the sodium in there to help recover electrolytes), .5 cup northern beans (for complex carbs and a little beg protien), and 2 tbls southwest spicy mustard (has no real caloric benefit, just taste good)
Same as 2nd except there is a bannana in it instead of pineapple juice
Post Workout, 150 grams sucrose/dextrose with 60-70 grams protien isolate
Same as 3rd
25 grams Casien Protien with either a bannana blended in or pineapple juice
I drink at least a gallon and a half of water a day if not more.
I pieced this way of eating with the idea of keeping a positive nitogen balance throughout the day and night, getting healthy complex carbs for daily energy, replenishing my glycogen stores daily because my 3 day split, creating an insulin surge right after workout, and pairing simple, but natural sugars with my protein shakes during the day (which should do two things, one is replace liver glycogen, the other is to keep "fuel" in the body so the protein is used for muscle building and not energy). It also has a good ratio of protien to carbs to fats.
What kind of sides can I expect? Will I be able to put on mass using this routine? More importanly will the fat finally shed and I will have my answer to whether I need to go under the knife (I've read of complications and reoccurances, contour problems and tons of stuff)?
If I can get some decent feed back, i will post pics of the before and after to help all you guys out that have this problem. This cycle is a bit expensive but beats the hell out of 4500 for surgery with the risk of all the complications and being out of the gym for 6 weeks, not really for taking breaks like that, I love working out.
You are welcome to critique any of my routine, it has taken me years to get this right, but I don't even think I've scratched the surface, there are so many of you out there that could help out.
Thank you guys in advance for the read and I can't wait to hear what you got to say.
08-29-2010 08:33 PM
Dude cliffs, I would love to help you but I don't have the time in my day to read all that. Sum your post up and make it more basic so people can help you.
iForce Nutrition Representative
iTrain. iCompete. iDominate…iForce!
08-29-2010 08:54 PM
Handsome and intelligent
I agree, a wall of text is not a fun prospect!
Originally Posted by criticalbench
I did see no mention of curcumin in there though. There is a lot of empirical feedback stating that curcumin can help reduce gyno.
08-29-2010 09:40 PM
Yeah, first post and I make it way too long. I tried to reorganize but since nobody on here knows me and I don't have any pics up I explained just about every aspect of my training. I really just wanna know what anybody thinks of the stack.
I'll also look into that herb but I think hitting this from every angle is key......
08-30-2010 12:06 PM
I don't know, I think it is overkill and taking too many things hoping their effects would compound.
Letro 2.5 till the gyno is gone, taper it down and Nolva for a week or two. After that, if you want to get rid of the fat, run a cut cycle.
I don't see the need to throw everything in and try to accomplish everything at once. You won't know what is working and what is not, which impacting what, if you get some sides, you don't know what to remove etc.
Just my thoughts
08-30-2010 01:15 PM
You might be right and I appreciate your input. I've tried Letro, which helped quite a bit but didn't get rid of it. I thought up everything I could and tried to peice together something that is decently safe, but is a powerful combination. I'll only be running it 30 days so I'm not overly worried about the strain on my body, real roid cycles and/or surgery would be just as big a risk IMO and this way I don't have to skip the gym when recovering after surgery.
Only thing I came up when I was thinking more on it, can I use Clen and topical Yohibime at the same time? I know I won't be drinking anymore caffeine becuase the Clen.
08-30-2010 01:30 PM
where do yall order the letro from?
08-30-2010 03:52 PM
Can we post sources? I'll tell you where I ordered mine if you PM me. Or if I can post sources, I will, not sure and I'm too busy to read the rules right this sec
08-30-2010 04:08 PM
No, you cannot post sources in the open forum
08-30-2010 04:10 PM
I can't really find feedback on it working, I see people discussing it though. Anyone came up with a good protocol for it?
Originally Posted by Robboe
08-30-2010 06:09 PM
Thx for popping in there about the sources, I was almost certain you couldn't (hence the nomenclature in the my original post about sources), but if you want, just PM me, I'll tell ya where I went.
And if anybody has heard anything about the herb fadi is talking about, please post a protocol for dosing and maybe results? I can't seem to find anybody that ran a true log with this stiff in there to reduce fat on the chest
08-31-2010 02:46 PM
Everything is on order and correction, I am going to do a taper up of Epistane, but will cap out at 40 after the first week. I'm splitting a bottle with a friend so I don't waste a bunch of it, so the protocol will be 20/30/30/40/40/40/40(1st week) the 40 thereafter to week 4.
I'll post pics and let you know how it goes.....I'm excited
09-03-2010 10:11 AM
Everything came in yesterday except the Epistane. Started Tapering up the Letro and Clen, also used the Caber.
Clen made me a little shaky as expected, other than that, no real sides or benefits as of yet.
I put the Yohimbe ES right before I went running, cleeaned my chest and applied 2 squirts to each side (although I will be lowering it down to one a side, that seemed like plenty). I ran 4.5 miles.
Used AIFM right before bed.
I will be taking the 1st does of everything in the morning until I have to split the doses of letro and clen (.5 ml for Letro, .25 of clen one morning, one in the afternoon).
Do you guys think running Epistane (given my experience with PH and legal oral roids), by tapering up from 20 for 2 days, 30 for 4 days, then 40 for the remainder of the cycle, considering I will be using Nolva and SARMS 4 as my PCT, will I get a massive estrogen rebound taking 40 mg for 3 weeks solid?
I'll listen to my body. If sides are bad, or my joints get too achey, I'll cut the dose back down
09-03-2010 11:29 AM
I was doing some reading on curcumin and came across two pubmed articles that showed curcumin to enhance the effectiveness of Letro against cancer. It is beyond my knowledge, but I would add curcumin to Letro if it may help. I will try the Letro curcumin combo next month
09-03-2010 12:19 PM
I looked up some and found some 800mg caps (60 a bottle) for around 15$ bucks at a store I can go get some today if I want. I'm not into my full letro dose yet either.
What was the dosage you saw for it? Would I take one of those caps a day or two (one mornign and one night)?
09-03-2010 12:54 PM
The research was done on mice, I believe the dose was 50mg/kg (again on mice). It was for cancer treatment/research.
The online discussions I've seen varied in doses. Someone else with more knowledge about Curcumin could chime in, but I believe with 400-800mg caps taking 1 cap 1 to 3 times a day with food will be sufficient.
Curcumin seem to have some amazing benefits, I just started taking it for its other benefits. Make sure it is standarized for Curcuminoids. You may find it under the name Turmeric.
09-08-2010 03:36 PM
Routine is working!
Lump on the left side of chest is almost completly gone!!!
Fat is decreasing which is helping the contour quite a bit. I'll keep you guys posted.
The only thing I modified, is I kept letro at .5ml instead of 1ml bc my results are good so far. I'll know a lot more in another week, but things are looking great so far! This stack is working perfectly, but I still need time to let all the levels of everything to even out, but in only 5 days I'm freaking happy as I can be.
09-09-2010 01:29 PM
Looks like I will be adding Promo/AIFM/Yohimburn/Curcumin to my Letro and maybe epi next time
09-15-2010 10:54 AM
Half way into my second week and I'm stil thrilled with the results. I haven't increased any of my lifts as of yet, but I am being conservative right now (higer reps, lower weight) bc I pulled a muscle in my upper back moving some concrete around. It should be gone in the next day or so and always loosens up a great deal after my workout.
The contour of my chest is getting better and better. I used to be obsessed with making it go away, now I'm happy I'm slowly seeing my chest take on the wide shape that the fat always hid. I'm changing up my routine to keep my body guessing, but haven't changed anything else ( and by "change" I mean heavy to light or toss in cardio if I feel I haven't recovered or my back is too tight, put it like this I either do a crazy hard super set workout or I run 4.5 miles, either one). I do vary my diet a little, eat some soft taco's a couple nights a week (corn tortillas and light chees), but my weight has stayed steady at 199-200 and I am getting leaner, so my lifts haven't gone up, but I have gained mass. I also check my BF and I'm down 1%, but that could just be water weight. I'll check again in another week,
I'm thinking of running the Epi for 5 weeks instead of 4 bc I have enough to do it, and maybe pulsing the last week with the start of tamox to get my system to kick back in, so the last week would be 80mgs EOD (instead of 40 a day), with 40 mg/day of tamox, what do you guys think?
I haven't noticed any better libido, but it isn't down. Overall I'm extreamly pleased with my progress.
No problem running CLEN and Yohimbe ES together and I'll let you guys know how the SARMS S4/Tomax/CLEN work together.
Do you guys think I should run SARMS S4 with the 5th week of Epistane while I'm pulsing?
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