Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2010: Glycocarn useless!!!

[TheTransforma]

Posted by Will Brink on another site. Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2010 publishized study. Glycocarn is useless!!!

DISCUSS


NO supplement study 2010

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The three NO formulas used in this study were big name products. As expected, they did nadda.

Comparison of pre-workout nitric oxide stimulating dietary supplements on skeletal muscle oxygen saturation, blood nitrate/nitrite, lipid peroxidation, and upper body exercise performance in resistance trained men

Richard J Bloomer1 email, Tyler M Farney1 email, John F Trepanowski1 email, Cameron G McCarthy1 email, Robert E Canale1 email and Brian K Schilling2

Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2010, 7:16doi:10.1186/1550-2783-7-16


Abstract

Background

We compared Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine (GlycoCarn®) and three different pre-workout nutritional supplements on measures of skeletal muscle oxygen saturation (StO2), blood nitrate/nitrite (NOx), lactate (HLa), malondialdehyde (MDA), and exercise performance in men.

Methods

Using a randomized, double-blind, cross-over design, 19 resistance trained men performed tests of muscular power (bench press throws) and endurance (10 sets of bench press to muscular failure). A placebo, GlycoCarn®, or one of three dietary supplements (SUPP1, SUPP2, SUPP3) was consumed prior to exercise, with one week separating conditions. Blood was collected before receiving the condition and immediately after exercise. StO2 was measured during the endurance test using Near Infrared Spectroscopy. Heart rate (HR) and rating of perceived exertion (RPE) were determined at the end of each set.

Results

A condition effect was noted for StO2 at the start of exercise (p = 0.02), with GlycoCarn® higher than SUPP2. A condition effect was also noted for StO2 at the end of exercise (p = 0.003), with SUPP1 lower than all other conditions. No statistically significant interaction, condition, or time effects were noted for NOx or MDA (p > 0.05); however, MDA decreased 13.7% with GlycoCarn® and increased in all other conditions. Only a time effect was noted for HLa (p < 0.0001), with values increasing from pre- to post-exercise. No effects were noted for HR, RPE, or for any exercise performance variables (p > 0.05); however, GlycoCarn® resulted in a statistically insignificant greater total volume load compared to the placebo (3.3%), SUPP1 (4.2%), SUPP2 (2.5%), and SUPP3 (4.6%).

Conclusion

None of the products tested resulted in favorable changes in our chosen outcome measures, with the exception of GlycoCarn® in terms of higher StO2 at the start of exercise. GlycoCarn® resulted in a 13.7% decrease in MDA from pre- to post-exercise and yielded a non-significant but greater total volume load compared to all other conditions. These data indicate that 1) a single ingredient (GlycoCarn®) can provide similar practical benefit than finished products containing multiple ingredients, and 2) while we do not have data in relation to post-exercise recovery parameters, the tested products are ineffective in terms of increasing blood flow and improving acute upper body exercise performance.

Full study:

Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition | Full text | Comparison of pre-workout nitric oxide stimulating dietary supplements on skeletal muscle oxygen saturation, blood nitrate/nitrite, lipid peroxidation, and upper body exercise per
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Will @ Will Brink's Brinkzone Blog : Bodybuilding , Fat Loss, Health & Fitness Exposed!

 

[SilentBob187]

Just because the results are not significant does not mean that someone would not receive a feeling of satisfaction using the product in conjunction with their training.

I'm not disagreeing with the study because I'd be a fool to knock JISSN. I actually like studies like this. They bring home the idea that supplements are supplemental to the other factors of exercise/bodybuilding.

 

[TheTransforma]

I have not tried Glycocarn as of yet, but what I read sofar is that people experience a good pump on the product. So, it does something. The same as AAKG, studies show it doesn't do a thing, but when I take AAKG it does provide me with a decent pump.

So, what gives?

 

[EasyEJL]

We compared Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine (GlycoCarn®) and three different pre-workout nutritional supplements on measures of skeletal muscle oxygen saturation (StO2), blood nitrate/nitrite (NOx), lactate (HLa), malondialdehyde (MDA), and exercise performance in men.

Ok, they used 1 dose of each of the different possibilities. Who thinks that any supplement will exhibit a statistically significant change in a single dose? I don't. Pointless study.

 

[Trauma1]

Ok, they used 1 dose of each of the different possibilities. Who thinks that any supplement will exhibit a statistically significant change in a single dose? I don't. Pointless study.

Very true; another factor to weigh in here is the incredibly small samples size (n=19) that was used.

I'm not sure how you can draw any logical conclusion of the efficacy of GPLC based on this studies method and sample size utilized.

There are people that claim they don't respond well to GPLC; and then there are others who absolutely praise the effects it delivers (me being one of them).

The bottom line: There needs to be a much more comprehensive clinical study done with a MUCH larger randomized sampling of the subjects.



-John

 

[thebigt]

I have not tried Glycocarn as of yet, but what I read sofar is that people experience a good pump on the product. So, it does something. The same as AAKG, studies show it doesn't do a thing, but when I take AAKG it does provide me with a decent pump.

So, what gives?

the people who were promoting glycocarn were posting these kind of studies about arginine. now it looks like they will have to defend their products containing glycocarn against studies showing it to be ineffective-the bottom line is, if you get results and gain benefits from a product who gives a crap what studies show-as long as the studies don't show a product to be harmful, if i am getting results i will continue to use the product.

 

[EasyEJL]

Very true; another factor to weigh in here is the incredibly small samples size (n=19) that was used.

I'm not sure how you can draw any logical conclusion of the efficacy of GPLC based on this studies method and sample size utilized.

There are people that claim they don't respond well to GPLC; and then there are others who absolutely praise the effects it delivers (me being one of them).

The bottom line: There needs to be a much more comprehensive clinical study done with a MUCH larger randomized sampling of the subjects.



-John

It definitely needs to be a large sample size, 8 weeks or longer, with dexa scans start and finish. I don't really care about the metrics they measured, I care more about body composition changes over time and repeated use.

 

[mav6]

The results really aren't much of a surprise. I take PP's GPLC, and I'll say that the first time I took it, I was like, what's the big deal? But I bought 2 bags of it, so I figured I'd just keep taking it. By the time I finished the first bag, I couldn't remember what it felt like to train without it. Now, I keep a water bottle with my dose of GPLC, Beta Alanine, and pedialyte ready to go. I just add water, and in an hour, I'm good to go. And personally, I don't care if a study came out saying it doesn't work for 99% of the population. It works for me, so I'll keep taking it.

 

[Trauma1]

It definitely needs to be a large sample size, 8 weeks or longer, with dexa scans start and finish. I don't really care about the metrics they measured, I care more about body composition changes over time and repeated use.

Yes, exactly. The lack or duration and set parameters used in this study are almost comical in a way. For example: skeletal muscle oxygen saturation (StO2).

How about knowing (posting) what each individuals oxygen carrying capacity was to begin with (hemoglobin, TIBC, Ferritin, etc); that parameter is pointless to assess otherwise. I'm not even sure what's so pertinent about demonstrating this effect anyway for the purposes of being supportive or contradictory in this study.

Saying that GlycoCarn is useless based on that study's findings is literally ridiculous...


-John

 

[SilentBob187]

What about turning the study on it's head? Glycocarn was shown to be superior to those other 3 preworkout supplements after just 1 dose.

 

[Trauma1]

What about turning the study on it's head? Glycocarn was shown to be superior to those other 3 preworkout supplements after just 1 dose.

I agree, but they're considering it not to be "statistically significant." I bet that would change if they monitored the effects for at least 4-8 weeks...



-John

 

[HereToStudy]

I recently have been experimenting with Glycocarn and can honestly say it is by far the best pump product I have ever used, and honestly, I am not pumping Primordial by saying this, we didn't create glycocarn, we sell it. Beyond the visual effects of the pump, I last longer in my workouts, add a bit of strength here and there, and leave the gym feeling like a god damn beast. If NO supplementation is your goal, you will do no better then GPLC.

 

[TheTransforma]

I recently have been experimenting with Glycocarn and can honestly say it is by far the best pump product I have ever used, and honestly, I am not pumping Primordial by saying this, we didn't create glycocarn, we sell it. Beyond the visual effects of the pump, I last longer in my workouts, add a bit of strength here and there, and leave the gym feeling like a god damn beast. If NO supplementation is your goal, you will do no better then GPLC.

Shoot me some, I would love to proof the study wrong It is on my list to try!

 

[HereToStudy]

Shoot me some, I would love to proof the study wrong It is on my list to try!

Wish I could, in fact I am running low myself. But I do have a bottle of Premax around, which features GPLC at the clinical dosage.

 

[thebigt]

The results really aren't much of a surprise. I take PP's GPLC, and I'll say that the first time I took it, I was like, what's the big deal? But I bought 2 bags of it, so I figured I'd just keep taking it. By the time I finished the first bag, I couldn't remember what it felt like to train without it. Now, I keep a water bottle with my dose of GPLC, Beta Alanine, and pedialyte ready to go. I just add water, and in an hour, I'm good to go. And personally, I don't care if a study came out saying it doesn't work for 99% of the population. It works for me, so I'll keep taking it.

f'ing A-when all of those studies were posted recently saying arginine was worthless-i was like what-i am going to stop using something that works damned well for me because of a stupid study????

it wasn't that long ago that studies showed creatine had no effect on muscle.

remember, weathermen are scientists too-and look at how often they are wrong, lol.

i will take real world results over scientific studies everyday of the week and twice on sundays!!!!!

 

[UKStrength]

I would also like to see a longer study, the sample size is tiny. I agree with the above there are always going to be non-responders to products, even GPLC, the same happened with Creatine a few years ago and now we wouldn't know what it was like to train without it.

My thoughts are always, if there's no reason to not take it (documented and proven side effects) give the product a try, if it does nothing at worst you've proven the study right.

oh and GPLC is awesome I love them pumps

 

[Outstanding]

Very true; another factor to weigh in here is the incredibly small samples size (n=19) that was used.

I'm not sure how you can draw any logical conclusion of the efficacy of GPLC based on this studies method and sample size utilized.

There are people that claim they don't respond well to GPLC; and then there are others who absolutely praise the effects it delivers (me being one of them).

The bottom line: There needs to be a much more comprehensive clinical study done with a MUCH larger randomized sampling of the subjects.



-John

Did they use the Sigma Tau 4.5g Clinical Dose in the study? I have never experienced anything like GPLC for pumps... even IF it is all cosmetic and doesn't equate to an anabolic sum effect, lifting weights is mostly cosmetic anyway - so I'd rather look big and pumped while lifting and experience the mental edge and performance boost anyway.

 

[Steveoph]

I agree, but they're considering it not to be "statistically significant." I bet that would change if they monitored the effects for at least 4-8 weeks...



-John

Not sure if you read the whole study John, but that is exactly what they said. The study didn't say Glycocarn was worthless, especially since it was funded by Sigma-Tau. Richard Bloomer was actually the person that did a lot of the other GlycoCarn research, so while the research obviously has statistical limitations, I don't have a problem with his methods.

Our findings for no change in NOx with GlycoCarn® refute our initial work, in which we have noted an increase in both resting [14] and stress-induced NOx [13]. The discrepancies in findings may be due to the fact that in the present design we simply provide a single serving of GlycoCarn® prior to exercise, whereas our prior work involved four [13] or eight [14] weeks of GlycoCarn® treatment. Likewise, our data are in opposition to the work of Jacobs and colleagues [12] who recently reported an improvement of 2.6-15% in high intensity cycle sprint performance with 4.5 grams of GlycoCarn® compared to a placebo. In this same study these investigators also noted an approximate 16% decrease in post-exercise blood HLa with GlycoCarn® compared to placebo. Differences in the exercise protocol likely contributed to the discrepancy in findings between the two studies.

...

It is possible that chronic treatment of GlycoCarn® may result in more robust changes in MDA or other markers of oxidative stress. Using a different stress protocol (handgrip dynamometry vs. resistance exercise), we have reported recently that four weeks of GlycoCarn® treatment at a daily dosage of 4.5 grams in resistance trained men results in a 45% decrease in oxidized to total glutathione ratio

...

One explanation for our lack of a performance effect for the chosen supplements, in addition to GlycoCarn®, could be our specific sample of subjects. That is, they may have been non-responders to treatment, as has been reported previously for a variety of sport supplements including caffeine [41], creatine [42], and GlycoCarn®, in terms of nitrate/nitrite [13]. If this were true, it is possible that a different group of subjects may have responded positively to treatment. This should be considered when athletes are contemplating the use of such products. For example, of our 19 subjects, 11 responded positively to GlycoCarn® in terms of total volume load, with a mean improvement above placebo of 12.6%. This is in opposition to the 3.3% improvement above placebo when including all 19 subjects in the analysis.

 

[thebigt]

real world is all that matters. if it works it works, and no amount of studies can take that away.

 

[dumbhick3]

I got a decent pump from one serving of PreMax a day for about 1-2 weeks (and missed a few days). I would need to stop taking my current 3g/day of ArginoCarn and try 2-4 weeks of solo GPLC 4.5g/day to really decide if I respond well to it or not. But I've turned into an ArginoCarn addict lately, so that might not happen for a while.

At the very least, my experience agrees with that of others who have said that a few doses was not enough to realize/experience the full effects of GPLC.

 

[Resolve]

Even though this horse is pretty thoroughly beaten, I'll add my 2 cents.

Nitric Oxide production is a fickle mistress - no matter the substance you choose for a "pump", somewhere there's a study to go against it. And in the case of some substances, if it doesn't affect NO, that's game over.

So, let me play devil's advocate for a minute. Even though this study has glaring shortcomings, insufficient timescales and invested sponsors, let's presume GPLC doesn't impact NO.

Personally, I think the data in favor of GPLC rules this out, but let's pretend. GPLC is not such a "one-trick pony" that it would then be "useless." This stuff is Glycyl-Propionyl-Carnitine! That glycine can dissociate in the gut or be actively cleft in the cell and guess what you have? PLCAR! Awesome stuff in and of itself.

Furthermore, there are countless studies on the neurological, pnemonic, and physiological benefits of carnitine in general. To say it's "useless" because one poorly laid out study fails to properly investigate a question is shortsighted indeed.

 

[poison]

real world is all that matters. if it works it works, and no amount of studies can take that away.

Chris Popovich said somewhere (paraphrasing): 'if something works in real life, but science can't prove it, or 'disproves it', it just means science hasn't caught up to reality yet'.

 

[HereToStudy]

Even though this horse is pretty thoroughly beaten, I'll add my 2 cents.

Nitric Oxide production is a fickle mistress - no matter the substance you choose for a "pump", somewhere there's a study to go against it. And in the case of some substances, if it doesn't affect NO, that's game over.

So, let me play devil's advocate for a minute. Even though this study has glaring shortcomings, insufficient timescales and invested sponsors, let's presume GPLC doesn't impact NO.

Personally, I think the data in favor of GPLC rules this out, but let's pretend. GPLC is not such a "one-trick pony" that it would then be "useless." This stuff is Glycyl-Propionyl-Carnitine! That glycine can dissociate in the gut or be actively cleft in the cell and guess what you have? PLCAR! Awesome stuff in and of itself.

Furthermore, there are countless studies on the neurological, pnemonic, and physiological benefits of carnitine in general. To say it's "useless" because one poorly laid out study fails to properly investigate a question is shortsighted indeed.

Very well said.

 

[thebigt]

Chris Popovich said somewhere (paraphrasing): 'if something works in real life, but science can't prove it, or 'disproves it', it just means science hasn't caught up to reality yet'.

you mean the earth isn't flat!!!:stooges:

 

[poison]

you mean the earth isn't flat!!!:stooges:

:lol:

 

[Guest]

The results really aren't much of a surprise. I take PP's GPLC, and I'll say that the first time I took it, I was like, what's the big deal? But I bought 2 bags of it, so I figured I'd just keep taking it. By the time I finished the first bag, I couldn't remember what it felt like to train without it. Now, I keep a water bottle with my dose of GPLC, Beta Alanine, and pedialyte ready to go. I just add water, and in an hour, I'm good to go. And personally, I don't care if a study came out saying it doesn't work for 99% of the population. It works for me, so I'll keep taking it.

I like that thinking! We need more of it.

 

[Trauma1]

Not sure if you read the whole study John, but that is exactly what they said. The study didn't say Glycocarn was worthless, especially since it was funded by Sigma-Tau. Richard Bloomer was actually the person that did a lot of the other GlycoCarn research, so while the research obviously has statistical limitations, I don't have a problem with his methods.

I honestly didn't read the full study; just the abstract (not what I typically do, but I'm lazy today). Abstracts are often very misleading, which is clearly demonstrated in what you pointed out in the full study. IMO, some of the parameters that were tested were absolutely pointless for the purposes of the cumulative study though.

This statement is interesting from the study:

Differences in the exercise protocol likely contributed to the discrepancy in findings between the two studies.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that assumption.

I guess I wasn't far off then with the issues that I had with this specific study. I knew it was a good idea to pay attention in those research classes, haha.

Good find, Steve.



-John

 

[jontrainer]

I have taken it the last three workouts and its been decent. Sounds like it will get better as I get a few weeks in. Cool.

 

[xx Zues xx]

I have to say, i use a GPLC supplement pre-workout at the Sigma Tau 4.5g Clinical Dose and i notice a difference then when i don't consume it pre-workout. I will only purchase a pre-workout supp with its as its primary ''NO inducer'' so to speak.
Does anybody know how many studies there are supporting it's effectivness as a NO inducing supplement? Curious.