Mild PS's compared to the stronger Herbals...Discuss...
- 07-01-2010, 09:13 AM
Mild PS's compared to the stronger Herbals...Discuss...
Ok, I have been able to make decent gains, (especially in strength) using herbal supplements... gains of 30-50 lbs on all major lifts is not uncommon. Mass gain is not huge but recomp is very strong...
I am reading many logs on the milder PS's and PH's and what I see is inferior strength gains and slightly better mass gain. Again recomp seems pretty good...
Now discuss what you think is the better route and why? And I don't want to hear there is no way a herbal can compare to a hormone product crap, cuz that is just a general answer. Results are all that matters... too many parrots on this board. Use your head and discuss this intelligently..
- 07-01-2010, 10:23 AM
30-50lbs? Which herbal supplements, exactly? I assume you mean some combination of/ / (Testofen as the main active).Paging Dr. Banner. . .
- 07-01-2010, 12:22 PM
i have seen some nice strength increases for otc products...similar to a mild ph such as epistane where strength increases weren't all that strong
on the other hand, the change in mass and body transformation is much quicker and weight is increased quicker if thats what someones looking for, on the other hand it is also harder to keep those gains, and hormones are more dangerous if used without studying them first
so it's really up to the person, strength will come with otc and from the strength hopefully will come muscle...you'll get a good strength from a mild ph and body transformation at a quicker rate but with higher risk....mild ph's don't have the same risks or side affects that a stronger ph might have but everyone is different, so if your going to go with a mild ph understand that your going with something alittle lighter and you shouldn't expect the same kinds of gains as you would from a stronger ph
07-01-2010, 01:26 PM
07-01-2010, 01:27 PM
07-01-2010, 01:42 PM
I'm not sure what mild PH's you're comparing to. Halodrol is one that comes to mind (and to be sure, it is a steroid, not a prohormone). What I usually see in logs is 5-8 lbs. gained for a 30-day cycle, with minimal side effects and an OTC AI-type PCT sufficing. To me, that is a LOT better results than herbals.
I'm also skeptical of products that claim to upregulate anabolism, but don't apparently do so by any of the classically understood scientific means. For example, in the last year we've seen that well reviewed "herbals" from companies such as ALRI and Anabolic Xtreme contained unlabeled hormonal ingredients.
To make sure that we are all on the same page, could the people that have been sponsored in some way by supplement companies such as USP please indicate that when they respond to this thread?
Edit: I see that you're sponsored, OP. Thanks for spelling that out.
07-01-2010, 01:50 PM
07-01-2010, 02:10 PM
07-01-2010, 02:11 PM
07-01-2010, 02:21 PM
IMO there are too many variables that can affect the outcome of any given regimen.. Let's say for instance someone's diet.. Their training routine, etc.
I think that results vary from individual to individual as well. I see more "recomp" with natural supplements and mild PH's then I see any actual mass gains..and then there's strength gains..those numbers appear to be all over the place. Ive had some pretty solid strength increases naturally, without the aid of even a natural test booster, and those numbers were higher then when I was on herbal supps. I don't think that the supps were ineffective, but maybe other variable caused the inconsistency.
There is not necessarily a better route so to speak.. There's what works for you, which promises no guarantee that it will work for the next joe. We could go in circles about which one offers greater results but at the end of the day I think there are too many variables.
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07-01-2010, 02:23 PM
but like i said the weight and body transformation was different, on epi i gained 8lbs and had a few ppl comment that i was getting bigger, i got the same compliments on the swole stack but the weight didn't change that rapidly
07-01-2010, 04:20 PM
07-01-2010, 04:40 PM
I've tried strong PH's and weak PH's. I've tried tons of NHA (non-hormonal anabolics) products, from Mass FX, T-BOL, Activate, Hard FX, etc.
For me, the best results have come from NHA products like Mass FX and T-BOL. The gains are slower and more steady, but I don't have to deal with a PCT, I don't have to worry about "support supps," libido loss, mood swings, etc. And, the strength and mass gains, from my experience, are nearly equal to those of the milder PH's.
NHA's are a winner in my book.
07-01-2010, 05:21 PM
I'm with the company that i'd rather go natural with the test boosters, nutrient partioners and other things to get my gains than go with a mild PH. Cause my gains have continue to come with changing up my diet, training routine, and adding in new things. They may have been a bit slower and it might take more attention to detail than some people want so they go with the PH but i'm happy with choice.
07-01-2010, 05:41 PM
The reason I started the thread is, I really want to know how things like Epistane and Hdrol compare to Testopro, Prime, Natadrol, PM... I have used 3 of these products with very good success.
07-01-2010, 05:43 PM
07-01-2010, 05:46 PM
07-01-2010, 05:49 PM
07-01-2010, 06:14 PM
If I run an 8-12 week cycle of a natty test booster and can gain 8, 10, or 15lbs (I've seen it done in 8-12 weeks)...saving money on support supps the whole time, having a bang-everything-that-moves sex drive, constant strength increases, not having to deal with a pct....I'm going with a natty test booster. The net gains seem to weigh in my favor....or at least that has been my personal experience with them.
07-01-2010, 06:26 PM
isn't natadrol considered a PH of some sort, i thoughts thats what they marketed it as when it first came out?
and again the trifecta stack may be considered a ph and that has basically the same side affects as any non hormonal product....it didn't work for me, but that being extremely mild may work for some ppl in terms of strength
the ph that is mild, with little sides that i'm intrigued to try and haven't yet even though i have some is "the one" or dplex, supposively good for strength, not so much with mass as much
But lets put this together, 2 bottles of h drol for $60, support supps before, during and after umm...lets say $20, pct is tricky: serm $45-$50, test booster: $35, creatine: well depends on creatine you use, cortisol product which is optional: $35ish....so i'm guessing your looking at a $200 cycle here if you don't get everything on sale.....you can put together a pretty nice natty stack for that amount
07-01-2010, 06:33 PM
07-01-2010, 07:48 PM
07-02-2010, 12:43 AM
This is part of the problem with these sorts of products. You aren't sure exactly what you are getting, in what dosage, and exactly how it is supposed to work. Prime is another example -- it doesn't affect the HPTA, but it is supposed to somehow increase anabolism. It's been a while since I really read up on Prime, but it sure sounded like snake-oil, placebo effect when it came onto the market.
07-02-2010, 01:04 AM
Even at full price, checking just now, it is $19 for that Nolva.
It's $45 to run H-Drol at 75mg for 30 days.
The rest of your list is... questionable at best. If you're already running Nolva, that IS your "test booster" (certainly better and more predictable than your typical OTC product). Creatine is something you should be running anyway, but regardless, it is not a unique cost to PH's. I don't see why you need to add on a cortisol product, and again, it should not be considered a unique cost.
I'm coming up with about $60 to run H-Drol at 75mg/day for 30 days, and then a fullblown (overkill) Taxoxifen PCT. If you want, add some milk thistle.
I'm not saying that this makes a H-Drol cycle the clear first-choice for every person reading this; there is a whole list of pros and cons, and not everyone is comfortable with research chems. But I AM saying that your itemized costs were way off.
07-02-2010, 01:13 AM
A pound a week of gains... because of some herbs... would surely interest some PhD level researchers. That's going to take something more than taking your testosterone levels from 400 to 600ng/dl.
No offense, but that is not going to be the "back on planet Earth..." reality for most people.
07-02-2010, 01:26 AM
If you go back and read numerous AM posts from 1-2-3 years ago, you would find exactly the same verbiage to describe why this a "test booster" was so superior to anything hormonal... the same glowing testimonials... the same kind of "it put 8 pounds on me!" user feedback.
07-02-2010, 02:25 AM
Someone with really ****ing good training and dieting (the OP) will get better results on herbals than dip****s running epistane when their 19 and have no diet or motivation.
Which certainly could lead you to believing the general consensus that the gains are unimpressive.
07-02-2010, 10:02 AM
07-02-2010, 10:22 AM
07-02-2010, 10:40 AM
That's about 8 weeks of PM which everybody found so expensive...
My gains on Testopro are very consistant over 8 weeks as well and it is even better when I add stoked. I would be getting 4-5 lbs gain in mass and maybe a couple lbs leaner. These are pretty consistant results with this stack.
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