Mild PS's compared to the stronger Herbals...Discuss...

[DreamWeaver]

Ok, I have been able to make decent gains, (especially in strength) using herbal supplements... gains of 30-50 lbs on all major lifts is not uncommon. Mass gain is not huge but recomp is very strong...

I am reading many logs on the milder PS's and PH's and what I see is inferior strength gains and slightly better mass gain. Again recomp seems pretty good...

Now discuss what you think is the better route and why? And I don't want to hear there is no way a herbal can compare to a hormone product crap, cuz that is just a general answer. Results are all that matters... too many parrots on this board. Use your head and discuss this intelligently..

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

30-50lbs? Which herbal supplements, exactly? I assume you mean some combination of Pink magic/Natadrol/TestoPro (Testofen as the main active).

 

[Young Gotti]

i have seen some nice strength increases for otc products...similar to a mild ph such as epistane where strength increases weren't all that strong

on the other hand, the change in mass and body transformation is much quicker and weight is increased quicker if thats what someones looking for, on the other hand it is also harder to keep those gains, and hormones are more dangerous if used without studying them first


so it's really up to the person, strength will come with otc and from the strength hopefully will come muscle...you'll get a good strength from a mild ph and body transformation at a quicker rate but with higher risk....mild ph's don't have the same risks or side affects that a stronger ph might have but everyone is different, so if your going to go with a mild ph understand that your going with something alittle lighter and you shouldn't expect the same kinds of gains as you would from a stronger ph

 

[DreamWeaver]

30-50lbs? Which herbal supplements, exactly? I assume you mean some combination of Pink magic/Natadrol/TestoPro (Testofen as the main active).

No that was with a fairly low dose of Prime... I was training my son at the time and he increased is bench 40 lbs in 4 weeks 6 prime ed at the lower 600 mg. His squats went crazy but he's a beast at squats so that not a fair test. Bench press has never been a great lift for him so that is a good measure. That's why I wonder why people bother with mild PH's....

 

[DreamWeaver]

i have seen some nice strength increases for otc products...similar to a mild ph such as epistane where strength increases weren't all that strong

on the other hand, the change in mass and body transformation is much quicker and weight is increased quicker if thats what someones looking for, on the other hand it is also harder to keep those gains, and hormones are more dangerous if used without studying them first


so it's really up to the person, strength will come with otc and from the strength hopefully will come muscle...you'll get a good strength from a mild ph and body transformation at a quicker rate but with higher risk....mild ph's don't have the same risks or side affects that a stronger ph might have but everyone is different, so if your going to go with a mild ph understand that your going with something alittle lighter and you shouldn't expect the same kinds of gains as you would from a stronger ph

Yah that's a pretty fair synopsis...

 

[chim_chim]

I'm not sure what mild PH's you're comparing to. Halodrol is one that comes to mind (and to be sure, it is a steroid, not a prohormone). What I usually see in logs is 5-8 lbs. gained for a 30-day cycle, with minimal side effects and an OTC AI-type PCT sufficing. To me, that is a LOT better results than herbals.

I'm also skeptical of products that claim to upregulate anabolism, but don't apparently do so by any of the classically understood scientific means. For example, in the last year we've seen that well reviewed "herbals" from companies such as ALRI and Anabolic Xtreme contained unlabeled hormonal ingredients.

To make sure that we are all on the same page, could the people that have been sponsored in some way by supplement companies such as USP please indicate that when they respond to this thread?

Edit: I see that you're sponsored, OP. Thanks for spelling that out.

 

[HereToStudy]

To make sure that we are all on the same page, could the people that have been sponsored in some way by supplement companies such as USP please indicate that when they respond to this thread?

I don't think sponsorship will play a huge role in which route people choose. Its more a personal choice and alignment of goals. DW is a natural athlete, so his choice to be natural aligns with his competitions and general desire for overall health (..and he can correct me if I am wrong).

 

[omg]

i have seen some nice strength increases for otc products...similar to a mild ph such as epistane where strength increases weren't all that strong

on the other hand, the change in mass and body transformation is much quicker and weight is increased quicker if thats what someones looking for, on the other hand it is also harder to keep those gains, and hormones are more dangerous if used without studying them first


so it's really up to the person, strength will come with otc and from the strength hopefully will come muscle...you'll get a good strength from a mild ph and body transformation at a quicker rate but with higher risk....mild ph's don't have the same risks or side affects that a stronger ph might have but everyone is different, so if your going to go with a mild ph understand that your going with something alittle lighter and you shouldn't expect the same kinds of gains as you would from a stronger ph

what kind of products?

 

[omg]

No that was with a fairly low dose of Prime... I was training my son at the time and he increased is bench 40 lbs in 4 weeks 6 prime ed at the lower 600 mg. His squats went crazy but he's a beast at squats so that not a fair test. Bench press has never been a great lift for him so that is a good measure. That's why I wonder why people bother with mild PH's....

with prime ? onder:

 

[SouthernCharm]

IMO there are too many variables that can affect the outcome of any given regimen.. Let's say for instance someone's diet.. Their training routine, etc.

I think that results vary from individual to individual as well. I see more "recomp" with natural supplements and mild PH's then I see any actual mass gains..and then there's strength gains..those numbers appear to be all over the place. Ive had some pretty solid strength increases naturally, without the aid of even a natural test booster, and those numbers were higher then when I was on herbal supps. I don't think that the supps were ineffective, but maybe other variable caused the inconsistency.

There is not necessarily a better route so to speak.. There's what works for you, which promises no guarantee that it will work for the next joe. We could go in circles about which one offers greater results but at the end of the day I think there are too many variables.

 

[Young Gotti]

what kind of products?

i noticed strength increases on stuff like prime and testopro or the Swole Stack that was comparable to a 30mg dosed run of epistane

but like i said the weight and body transformation was different, on epi i gained 8lbs and had a few ppl comment that i was getting bigger, i got the same compliments on the swole stack but the weight didn't change that rapidly

 

[hardknock]

No that was with a fairly low dose of Prime... I was training my son at the time and he increased is bench 40 lbs in 4 weeks 6 prime ed at the lower 600 mg. His squats went crazy but he's a beast at squats so that not a fair test. Bench press has never been a great lift for him so that is a good measure. That's why I wonder why people bother with mild PH's....

The reason is that the ph will add mass quicker, usually and no matter what many 17-22 yr olds will say, mass is what draws them in.

I've only met a few young'ns that actually care about strength. They all scream about mass and weight.

 

[SmashK]

I've tried strong PH's and weak PH's. I've tried tons of NHA (non-hormonal anabolics) products, from Mass FX, T-BOL, Activate, Hard FX, etc.

For me, the best results have come from NHA products like Mass FX and T-BOL. The gains are slower and more steady, but I don't have to deal with a PCT, I don't have to worry about "support supps," libido loss, mood swings, etc. And, the strength and mass gains, from my experience, are nearly equal to those of the milder PH's.

NHA's are a winner in my book.

 

[PrepNwa23]

I'm with the company that i'd rather go natural with the test boosters, nutrient partioners and other things to get my gains than go with a mild PH. Cause my gains have continue to come with changing up my diet, training routine, and adding in new things. They may have been a bit slower and it might take more attention to detail than some people want so they go with the PH but i'm happy with choice.

 

[DreamWeaver]

I don't think sponsorship will play a huge role in which route people choose. Its more a personal choice and alignment of goals. DW is a natural athlete, so his choice to be natural aligns with his competitions and general desire for overall health (..and he can correct me if I am wrong).

No you pretty much have it, I can gain pretty well on herbals for now but I am always looking forward so I am not close minded on the subject. It's true while I am competing I won't us sythetics.

The reason I started the thread is, I really want to know how things like Epistane and Hdrol compare to Testopro, Prime, Natadrol, PM... I have used 3 of these products with very good success.

 

[DreamWeaver]

with prime ? onder:

Yah all the people I gave Prime to had similar results.. Prime is a major strength supp... period. Testopro has very solid strength gains as well and a hell of a effect on libido...

 

[DreamWeaver]

IMO there are too many variables that can affect the outcome of any given regimen.. Let's say for instance someone's diet.. Their training routine, etc.

I think that results vary from individual to individual as well. I see more "recomp" with natural supplements and mild PH's then I see any actual mass gains..and then there's strength gains..those numbers appear to be all over the place. Ive had some pretty solid strength increases naturally, without the aid of even a natural test booster, and those numbers were higher then when I was on herbal supps. I don't think that the supps were ineffective, but maybe other variable caused the inconsistency.

There is not necessarily a better route so to speak.. There's what works for you, which promises no guarantee that it will work for the next joe. We could go in circles about which one offers greater results but at the end of the day I think there are too many variables.

That's true, I do get the impression that herbals may be more reliant on sound diet than synthetics, like I said it's just an impression.

 

[DreamWeaver]

i noticed strength increases on stuff like prime and testopro or the Swole Stack that was comparable to a 30mg dosed run of epistane

but like i said the weight and body transformation was different, on epi i gained 8lbs and had a few ppl comment that i was getting bigger, i got the same compliments on the swole stack but the weight didn't change that rapidly

Another fair and honest assessment thanks....

I've tried strong PH's and weak PH's. I've tried tons of NHA (non-hormonal anabolics) products, from Mass FX, T-BOL, Activate, Hard FX, etc.

For me, the best results have come from NHA products like Mass FX and T-BOL. The gains are slower and more steady, but I don't have to deal with a PCT, I don't have to worry about "support supps," libido loss, mood swings, etc. And, the strength and mass gains, from my experience, are nearly equal to those of the milder PH's.

NHA's are a winner in my book.

You also make some good points, no PCT is a big advantage...

 

[SmashK]

You also make some good points, no PCT is a big advantage...

Exactly. Lots of people lose gains (strength and size) during PCT. If I run a 4 week PH cycle and gain 10lbs, and then follow it with 4 weeks of PCT where I lose 3-5lbs, I've netted a 5-8lb gain in 8 weeks.

If I run an 8-12 week cycle of a natty test booster and can gain 8, 10, or 15lbs (I've seen it done in 8-12 weeks)...saving money on support supps the whole time, having a bang-everything-that-moves sex drive, constant strength increases, not having to deal with a pct....I'm going with a natty test booster. The net gains seem to weigh in my favor....or at least that has been my personal experience with them.

 

[Young Gotti]

isn't natadrol considered a PH of some sort, i thoughts thats what they marketed it as when it first came out?

and again the trifecta stack may be considered a ph and that has basically the same side affects as any non hormonal product....it didn't work for me, but that being extremely mild may work for some ppl in terms of strength

the ph that is mild, with little sides that i'm intrigued to try and haven't yet even though i have some is "the one" or dplex, supposively good for strength, not so much with mass as much

But lets put this together, 2 bottles of h drol for $60, support supps before, during and after umm...lets say $20, pct is tricky: serm $45-$50, test booster: $35, creatine: well depends on creatine you use, cortisol product which is optional: $35ish....so i'm guessing your looking at a $200 cycle here if you don't get everything on sale.....you can put together a pretty nice natty stack for that amount

 

[DreamWeaver]

isn't natadrol considered a PH of some sort, i thoughts thats what they marketed it as when it first came out?

and again the trifecta stack may be considered a ph and that has basically the same side affects as any non hormonal product....it didn't work for me, but that being extremely mild may work for some ppl in terms of strength

the ph that is mild, with little sides that i'm intrigued to try and haven't yet even though i have some is "the one" or dplex, supposively good for strength, not so much with mass as much

But lets put this together, 2 bottles of h drol for $60, support supps before, during and after umm...lets say $20, pct is tricky: serm $45-$50, test booster: $35, creatine: well depends on creatine you use, cortisol product which is optional: $35ish....so i'm guessing your looking at a $200 cycle here if you don't get everything on sale.....you can put together a pretty nice natty stack for that amount

Yah I hate when someone says herbals are expensive it's like they don't figure in what they pay for support supps and PCT....

 

[tnubs]

LCLT with a strong test booster stack has always given me my best strength gains

 

[chim_chim]

I've tried strong PH's and weak PH's. I've tried tons of NHA (non-hormonal anabolics) products, from Mass FX, T-BOL, Activate, Hard FX, etc.

For me, the best results have come from NHA products like Mass FX and T-BOL. The gains are slower and more steady, but I don't have to deal with a PCT, I don't have to worry about "support supps," libido loss, mood swings, etc. And, the strength and mass gains, from my experience, are nearly equal to those of the milder PH's.

NHA's are a winner in my book.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that MassFX was one of the products implicated in the bodybuilding.com raid as having an unlabeled hormonal component.

This is part of the problem with these sorts of products. You aren't sure exactly what you are getting, in what dosage, and exactly how it is supposed to work. Prime is another example -- it doesn't affect the HPTA, but it is supposed to somehow increase anabolism. It's been a while since I really read up on Prime, but it sure sounded like snake-oil, placebo effect when it came onto the market.

 

[chim_chim]

But lets put this together, 2 bottles of h drol for $60, support supps before, during and after umm...lets say $20, pct is tricky: serm $45-$50, test booster: $35, creatine: well depends on creatine you use, cortisol product which is optional: $35ish....so i'm guessing your looking at a $200 cycle here if you don't get everything on sale.....you can put together a pretty nice natty stack for that amount

I don't know where you are sourcing your SERM, but where I buy research chems (one of the major vendors), if you wait for one of the extremely frequent sales, I'm seeing <$10 to run Nolvadex at 40-20-20-10 for a 4-week PCT. If you are running H-Drol at a typical 75mg/ed for 4 weeks, that is really an overkill PCT.

Even at full price, checking just now, it is $19 for that Nolva.

It's $45 to run H-Drol at 75mg for 30 days.

The rest of your list is... questionable at best. If you're already running Nolva, that IS your "test booster" (certainly better and more predictable than your typical OTC product). Creatine is something you should be running anyway, but regardless, it is not a unique cost to PH's. I don't see why you need to add on a cortisol product, and again, it should not be considered a unique cost.

I'm coming up with about $60 to run H-Drol at 75mg/day for 30 days, and then a fullblown (overkill) Taxoxifen PCT. If you want, add some milk thistle.

I'm not saying that this makes a H-Drol cycle the clear first-choice for every person reading this; there is a whole list of pros and cons, and not everyone is comfortable with research chems. But I AM saying that your itemized costs were way off.

 

[chim_chim]

If I run an 8-12 week cycle of a natty test booster and can gain 8, 10, or 15lbs (I've seen it done in 8-12 weeks)...saving money on support supps the whole time, having a bang-everything-that-moves sex drive, constant strength increases, not having to deal with a pct....I'm going with a natty test booster. The net gains seem to weigh in my favor....or at least that has been my personal experience with them.

Wow. Well, if you are going to gain 8-10-15 lbs. because of the addition of a "test booster," all in 8-12 weeks, and with no side effects, then yeah... that is your clear choice.

A pound a week of gains... because of some herbs... would surely interest some PhD level researchers. That's going to take something more than taking your testosterone levels from 400 to 600ng/dl.

No offense, but that is not going to be the "back on planet Earth..." reality for most people.

 

[chim_chim]

I've tried strong PH's and weak PH's. I've tried tons of NHA (non-hormonal anabolics) products, from Mass FX, T-BOL, Activate, Hard FX, etc.

For me, the best results have come from NHA products like Mass FX and T-BOL. The gains are slower and more steady, but I don't have to deal with a PCT, I don't have to worry about "support supps," libido loss, mood swings, etc. And, the strength and mass gains, from my experience, are nearly equal to those of the milder PH's.

NHA's are a winner in my book.

Sorry to pound this thread with my posts, but Activate was another product shown to be basically worthless weed clippings. See:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/01/prweb3519384.htm

If you go back and read numerous AM posts from 1-2-3 years ago, you would find exactly the same verbiage to describe why this a "test booster" was so superior to anything hormonal... the same glowing testimonials... the same kind of "it put 8 pounds on me!" user feedback.

 

[deadaim]

Someone with really ****ing good training and dieting (the OP) will get better results on herbals than dip****s running epistane when their 19 and have no diet or motivation.

Which certainly could lead you to believing the general consensus that the gains are unimpressive.

 

[DreamWeaver]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that MassFX was one of the products implicated in the bodybuilding.com raid as having an unlabeled hormonal component.

This is part of the problem with these sorts of products. You aren't sure exactly what you are getting, in what dosage, and exactly how it is supposed to work. Prime is another example -- it doesn't affect the HPTA, but it is supposed to somehow increase anabolism. It's been a while since I really read up on Prime, but it sure sounded like snake-oil, placebo effect when it came onto the market.

Not here to bash products, doesn't really add to the discussion, Prime is legit and many use it with very good results, I know world class Naturals that swear by it.

I don't know where you are sourcing your SERM, but where I buy research chems (one of the major vendors), if you wait for one of the extremely frequent sales, I'm seeing <$10 to run Nolvadex at 40-20-20-10 for a 4-week PCT. If you are running H-Drol at a typical 75mg/ed for 4 weeks, that is really an overkill PCT.

Even at full price, checking just now, it is $19 for that Nolva.

It's $45 to run H-Drol at 75mg for 30 days.

The rest of your list is... questionable at best. If you're already running Nolva, that IS your "test booster" (certainly better and more predictable than your typical OTC product). Creatine is something you should be running anyway, but regardless, it is not a unique cost to PH's. I don't see why you need to add on a cortisol product, and again, it should not be considered a unique cost.

I'm coming up with about $60 to run H-Drol at 75mg/day for 30 days, and then a fullblown (overkill) Taxoxifen PCT. If you want, add some milk thistle.

I'm not saying that this makes a H-Drol cycle the clear first-choice for every person reading this; there is a whole list of pros and cons, and not everyone is comfortable with research chems. But I AM saying that your itemized costs were way off.

Fair enough, good info thanks... seems that a leap of faith is necessary no matter which route you take.

Someone with really ****ing good training and dieting (the OP) will get better results on herbals than dip****s running epistane when their 19 and have no diet or motivation.

Which certainly could lead you to believing the general consensus that the gains are unimpressive.

Yah that thought had crossed my mind, that's what makes things confusing sometimes. I read these logs and I don't know who these people are, and yah there are a lot of factors to consider.

 

[Young Gotti]

I don't know where you are sourcing your SERM, but where I buy research chems (one of the major vendors), if you wait for one of the extremely frequent sales, I'm seeing <$10 to run Nolvadex at 40-20-20-10 for a 4-week PCT. If you are running H-Drol at a typical 75mg/ed for 4 weeks, that is really an overkill PCT.

Even at full price, checking just now, it is $19 for that Nolva.

It's $45 to run H-Drol at 75mg for 30 days.

The rest of your list is... questionable at best. If you're already running Nolva, that IS your "test booster" (certainly better and more predictable than your typical OTC product). Creatine is something you should be running anyway, but regardless, it is not a unique cost to PH's. I don't see why you need to add on a cortisol product, and again, it should not be considered a unique cost.

I'm coming up with about $60 to run H-Drol at 75mg/day for 30 days, and then a fullblown (overkill) Taxoxifen PCT. If you want, add some milk thistle.

I'm not saying that this makes a H-Drol cycle the clear first-choice for every person reading this; there is a whole list of pros and cons, and not everyone is comfortable with research chems. But I AM saying that your itemized costs were way off.

you can't run h-drol for 4 weeks and expect results it needs to be 6 weeks to see desireable results...cel products were $30 a bottle before the ban, milk thistle is about $8 a bottle, hawthorne another $8 a bottle, on my latest 4 week run i'm on my second bottle of milk thistle and 3rd bottle of hawthorne...again a test booster....testopro at nutraplanet is currently $40...i'd always go with a test booster/ai...but if you take that out your still looking at roughly $160ish

 

[DreamWeaver]

you can't run h-drol for 4 weeks and expect results it needs to be 6 weeks to see desireable results...cel products were $30 a bottle before the ban, milk thistle is about $8 a bottle, hawthorne another $8 a bottle, on my latest 4 week run i'm on my second bottle of milk thistle and 3rd bottle of hawthorne...again a test booster....testopro at nutraplanet is currently $40...i'd always go with a test booster/ai...but if you take that out your still looking at roughly $160ish

So what are you expectations from this run after PCT...

That's about 8 weeks of PM which everybody found so expensive...

My gains on Testopro are very consistant over 8 weeks as well and it is even better when I add stoked. I would be getting 4-5 lbs gain in mass and maybe a couple lbs leaner. These are pretty consistant results with this stack.

 

[Young Gotti]

So what are you expectations from this run after PCT...

That's about 8 weeks of PM which everybody found so expensive...

My gains on Testopro are very consistant over 8 weeks as well and it is even better when I add stoked. I would be getting 4-5 lbs gain in mass and maybe a couple lbs leaner. These are pretty consistant results with this stack.

6 weeks for h-drol....maybe 8-9lbs gained on the scale, a recomp type look or affect meaning the weight will be very lean with a small reduction of body fat or atleast in appearance, because the gains are slower than some ph's the gains usually stick easier as well

the thing about h-drol is that the strength isn't all that crazy, lifts will go up around week 4, but i don't believe they are huge jumps like some other things, more steady

 

[DreamWeaver]

6 weeks for h-drol....maybe 8-9lbs gained on the scale, a recomp type look or affect meaning the weight will be very lean with a small reduction of body fat or atleast in appearance, because the gains are slower than some ph's the gains usually stick easier as well

the thing about h-drol is that the strength isn't all that crazy, lifts will go up around week 4, but i don't believe they are huge jumps like some other things, more steady

Ok 8-9 lb is good will you keep the gains through PCT..

 

[hardknock]

isn't natadrol considered a PH of some sort, i thoughts thats what they marketed it as when it first came out?

and again the trifecta stack may be considered a ph and that has basically the same side affects as any non hormonal product....it didn't work for me, but that being extremely mild may work for some ppl in terms of strength

the ph that is mild, with little sides that i'm intrigued to try and haven't yet even though i have some is "the one" or dplex, supposively good for strength, not so much with mass as much

But lets put this together, 2 bottles of h drol for $60, support supps before, during and after umm...lets say $20, pct is tricky: serm $45-$50, test booster: $35, creatine: well depends on creatine you use, cortisol product which is optional: $35ish....so i'm guessing your looking at a $200 cycle here if you don't get everything on sale.....you can put together a pretty nice natty stack for that amount

I don't know if price determines much if at all. It may but I've never looked at price at all.

 

[Young Gotti]

Ok 8-9 lb is good will you keep the gains through PCT..

i believe h drol gains are easy to keep because they are slow and steady, it's 6 weeks for 8-9lbs, where an m drol run you might gain up to 10 lbs in the first 10 days, that stuff is harder to keep the gains from

 

[DreamWeaver]

i believe h drol gains are easy to keep because they are slow and steady, it's 6 weeks for 8-9lbs, where an m drol run you might gain up to 10 lbs in the first 10 days, that stuff is harder to keep the gains from

8 to 9 lbs kept is good... I would be hard pressed to duplicate those gains with a herbal, I'll admit. I am always recomping so I have to remember to add in the extra couple lbs of fat I lose though, but still I am probably only talking 5 to 6 lbs... So 33% better gains from Hdrol.. I think that's fair.