what is the best liver protectant supp
- 05-20-2004, 01:33 AM
what is the best liver protectant supp
Maybe the wrong forum to be posting in but I figure everyone taking a methyl should be taking one. Is Milk Thistle enough, or 1fast's liver supp or how about r-ala? I was thinking of just using r-ala but I haven't seen a recommended dosage as far as restoring liver enzymes. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
- 05-20-2004, 02:28 AM
sledge was saying 600mg's of r-ala for regular peepz increase dosage if you are a big guy.. I use both 1fast400's r-ala and pro-liver .. 1fast400 everything is good..
- 05-20-2004, 04:26 AM
I take in about a gram of r-ala a day with nac.
05-20-2004, 04:26 AM
That is when I'm on cycle...unfortunately I'm not now.
05-20-2004, 02:00 PM
i've been on r-ala for a long while now, at 600mg per day. NAC's nice but havent added it to my daily supplement intake. Milk thistle is also a common supp for me. 600mg/day standarized works fine. (usualy 80% standarized so 3 -250mg caps)
05-24-2004, 04:16 PM
Milk thistle and NAC, using the amounts recommended on the bottle.
05-24-2004, 09:53 PM
NAC didnt do anything for liver values, its a scam. R-Ala was the only one that actually lowered enzymes. According to bloodwork done on SS, you can read his log here.
05-24-2004, 11:51 PM
It does help. For example, acetaminophen causes liver damage too and NAC is used for hepatic problems caused by acetaminophen:
I have to go. I will post more later.Hum Exp Toxicol. 2003 Aug;22(8):453-8. Related Articles, Links
Successful treatment of acetaminophen overdose associated with hepatic failure.
Pajoumand A, Jalali N, Abdollahi M, Shadnia S.
Poison Centre, Loghman-Hakim Hospital, Faculty of Medicine, Shaheed-Beheshti University of Medical Science, Tehran, Iran.
Acetaminophen is the most widely used antipyretic and analgesic drug in the world. Acetaminophen poisoning and the following hepatic failure are not rare and are the most common indications of liver transplantation in the USA and Europe. In this case report, the patient was a 25-year old woman with hepatic failure who was brought to Loghman-Hakim Poison Centre 24 hours after attempted suicide with 100 tablets of acetaminophen, 325 mg. She was treated with N-acetylcysteine (NAC) and discharged from the hospital 12 days after admission and followed up for 1 month. In conclusion, acetaminophen poisoning should be considered in the differential diagnoses of hepatic failure. In acetaminophen-induced hepatic damage the administration of NAC must always be considered even after 24 hours of overdose.
* Case Reports
PMID: 12948086 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
05-24-2004, 11:56 PM
that is not a practical report imo. but you did say you were going to post more....
05-25-2004, 12:15 AM
what about primrose oil?? I used to use that years ago on an AAS cycle.
05-25-2004, 11:41 AM
The topic at hand is dealing with the hepatotoxic effects of methyl compounds. Much of the research in the area of hepatotoxicity centers on acetaminophen and alcohol, since those are the two most common ways people induce liver damage in themselves. The use of methylated steroid compounds is not common for the public and so relatively little research is focused in that area.Originally Posted by DougMan
05-25-2004, 11:47 AM
Another example of NAC helping hepatotoxicity:
Drug Saf. 2001;24(7):503-12. Related Articles, Links
Management of paracetamol overdose: current controversies.
Kozer E, Koren G.
Division of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology, The Hospital for Sick Children, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. firstname.lastname@example.org
Paracetamol (acetaminophen) is one of the most frequently used analgesics, and is the most commonly used substance in self-poisoning in the US and UK. Paracetamol toxicity is manifested primarily in the liver. Treatment with N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC), if started within 10 hours from ingestion, can prevent hepatic damage in most cases. Pharmacokinetic data relating plasma paracetamol concentration to time after ingestion have been used to generate a 'probable hepatoxicity line' to predict which cases of paracetamol overdose will result in hepatotoxicity and should be treated with NAC. However, later studies use a 25% lower line as their 'possible hepatotoxicity line'. Although adopting the original line may save considerable resources, further studies are needed to determine whether such an approach is safe. On the basis of the metabolism of paracetamol, several risk factors for paracetamol toxicity have been proposed. These risk factors include long term alcohol (ethanol) ingestion, fasting and treatment with drugs that induce the cytochrome P450 2E1 enzyme system. Although some studies have suggested that these risk factors may be associated with worse prognosis, the data are inconclusive. However, until further evidence is available, we suggest that the lower line should be used when risk factors are present. In Canada and the UK, the intravenous regimen for NAC is used almost exclusively; in the US, an oral regimen is used. Both regimens have been shown to be effective. There is no large scale study with direct comparison between these 2 therapeutic protocols and controversy still exists as to which regimen is superior. During the last few years there has been an increase in the number of reports of liver failure associated with prolonged paracetamol administration for therapeutic reasons. The true incidence of this phenomenon is not known. We suggest testing liver enzyme levels if a child has received more than 75 mg/kg/day of paracetamol for more than 24 hours during febrile illness, and to treat with NAC when transaminase levels are elevated. Paracetamol overdose during pregnancy should be treated with either oral or intravenous NAC according to the regular protocols in order to prevent maternal, and potentially fetal, toxicity. Unless severe maternal toxicity develops, paracetamol overdose does not appear to increase the risk for adverse pregnancy outcome.
* Review, Tutorial
PMID: 11444723 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
05-25-2004, 11:47 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't call it a scam sledge...LOL...I've seen a lot of things pointing out that it helps in restoration...just maybe not in SS's case...
05-25-2004, 11:49 AM
O/T a bit but, my NAC is kinda old...like around 7 months or so. When I open it up the bottle stinks like rotten eggs. Is that normal?? Its the NAC from NOW foods...anybody else have this happen??
05-25-2004, 11:52 AM
NAC is converted in the body into metabolites capable of stimulating glutathione (GSH) synthesis, promoting detoxification, and acting directly as free radical scavengers.
Altern Med Rev. 1998 Apr;3(2):114-27. Related Articles, Links
Clinical applications of N-acetylcysteine.
Alternative Medicine Review, Greenwich, CT.
N-acetylcysteine (NAC), the acetylated variant of the amino acid L-cysteine, is an excellent source of sulfhydryl (SH) groups, and is converted in the body into metabolites capable of stimulating glutathione (GSH) synthesis, promoting detoxification, and acting directly as free radical scavengers. Administration of NAC has historically been as a mucolytic agent in a variety of respiratory illnesses; however, it appears to also have beneficial effects in conditions characterized by decreased GSH or oxidative stress, such as HIV infection, cancer, heart disease, and cigarette smoking. An 18-dose oral course of NAC is currently the mainstay of treatment for acetaminophen-induced hepatotoxicity. N-acetylcysteine also appears to have some clinical usefulness as a chelating agent in the treatment of acute heavy metal poisoning, both as an agent capable of protecting the liver and kidney from damage and as an intervention to enhance elimination of the metals.
* Review, Tutorial
PMID: 9577247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
05-25-2004, 12:11 PM
From the full text article (not the abstract): "As a source of sulfhydryl groups, NAC stimulates glutathione (GSH) synthesis, enhances glutathione-S-transferase activity, promotes liver detoxification by inhibiting xenobiotic biotransformation, and is a powerful nucleophile capable of scavenging free radicals."
Altern Med Rev. 2000 Oct;5(5):467-71. Related Articles, Links
[No authors listed]
N-acetylcysteine (NAC) is the acetylated precursor of both the amino acid L-cysteine and reduced glutathione (GSH). Historically it has been used as a mucolytic agent in chronic respiratory illnesses as well as an antidote for hepatotoxicity due to acetaminophen overdose. More recently, animal and human studies of NAC have shown it to be a powerful antioxidant and a potential therapeutic agent in the treatment of cancer, heart disease, HIV infection, heavy metal toxicity, and other diseases characterized by free radical oxidant damage. NAC has also been shown to be of some value in treating Sjogren's syndrome, smoking cessation, influenza, hepatitis C, and myoclonus epilepsy.
PMID: 11056417 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
05-25-2004, 12:21 PM
best is milk thistle followed by the antioxidants:ALA, NAC, C, E, etc.
05-25-2004, 12:28 PM
The NAC I have (different brand) does not have any smell at all. However, I believe that NOW often uses extracts for producing their supplements and these can have a residual "solvent" smell (for lack of a better description). If it always smelled like this, I would not worry about it. If it just started to smell, I would get a new bottle.Originally Posted by Jergo
05-25-2004, 12:34 PM
Yeah, as far as I can remember it did. It's just so strong that it seems unusual...Originally Posted by Cogar
05-25-2004, 12:40 PM
05-25-2004, 12:40 PM
I have some that smells aweful too, a wonderful aroma of rotten ass
I use milk thistle (post cycle), 600-900mg of R-ala, and 3g vitamin C daily
07-06-2004, 01:42 PM
I have used three different brands of NAC, and two smelled of rotten eggs (not quite, but definitely stinky), while one did not. I also have Legal Gear M5AA (Masterdrol) w/ NAC and it has the same stink, certainly from the NAC.
I just got some NAC 600 on sale that also has 100mg of Glutathione--is this stuff even orally active?
RE: ALA, I just increase my flax intake. Flax is so cheap and good for you, I don't see the point in buying expensive extracts.
RE: Milk Thistle--you should "pre-treat" with milk thistle for at least five days before starting the cycle. This is waht was done in the specific studies that addressed using Milk THistle on otherwise healthy livers to protect from hapatoxic drugs. This allows for the beneficial increase in glutathione levels prior to the negative effects of the chosen oral steroid.
RE: Hawthorne Berry:You actually need to use Hawthorne for about 6 weeks before it begins to exert desired effects.
*I'm too busy to grab links right now, but there are a good deal of studies to this end.*
07-06-2004, 04:34 PM
I belive they're reffering to alpha lipoic acid, not alpha lineolaic acid.
LEF.org has an interesting read on liver supps backed up by numerous studies. Look under "acetominiphen". They point to some studies showing that NAC and milk thistle need to be taken very consistently for several months in order to recieve the liver protecting/healing benefits. They point out one study showing that sporadic use of these compounds can actually hurt a stressed liver more than not taking them at all.
07-06-2004, 05:03 PM
Ah-ha, silly me, I thought ALA was ALA...didn't read the fine print...glad you pointed that out.
BTW, I agree 100% about sustained vs. intermittent use of liver protection supps. These herbs and ancillaries are mild and need time to have an effect. To think that just popping them along with a 2-week M1T cycle is really going to help that much is kind of silly.
07-07-2004, 03:04 AM
Bump, I seem to remember reading somewhere that you need at least 6 weeks of continually taking natural/herbal supplements for them to build up in your body and 'work' or have any benefit.
So, am I being dumb here or is R-ALA different to the ALA found in flax seed oil?
07-07-2004, 03:37 AM
ALA in flax oil is Alpha Linoleic Acid, a fatty acid. R-ALA, or regular (racemix) ALA that you buy in pill form is Alpha Lipoic Acid, a potent anti-oxidant and glucose disposal agent.Originally Posted by LM600
06-08-2005, 11:29 AM
I am just curious if there are any studies (or opinions) demonstrating why sporadic use is harmful to the liver.Originally Posted by bioman
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