vitamin C postworkout question

[kingdong]

In another thread, some one mentioned that post workout vitamin C was a bad idea, and he made it sound like it was just something that everyone knew. What do I not know? I was actually thinking about useing it for cortisol suppression.

 

[rochabp]

i dont see why it would be a bad idea, C will cut that cortisol bleeding after strenuous workouts promote anabolism and crush catabolism

 

[kingdong]

That's what I would have assumed. I think Ill track thois guy down though.

 

[Moeller]

It was an issue with anti-oxidants negatively affecting recovery when taken post workout I believe.

 

[BringThePain]

In another thread, some one mentioned that post workout vitamin C was a bad idea, and he made it sound like it was just something that everyone knew. What do I not know? I was actually thinking about useing it for cortisol suppression.

If your using a carb/protein postworkout drink afterwards u will more than likely be wasting your money adding vitamin c

 

[rochabp]

If your using a carb/protein postworkout drink afterwards u will more than likely be wasting your money adding vitamin c

true thats why i would only use it after cardio or plyometrics

 

[zodiiac523]

If your using a carb/protein postworkout drink afterwards u will more than likely be wasting your money adding vitamin c

agreed, you or rochabp got to chage ur avatar... i saw the avatars and thought rochabp was quoting himself..

 

[rochabp]

agreed, you or rochabp got to chage ur avatar... i saw the avatars and thought rochabp was quoting himself..

we're cool like that

 

[Distilled Water]

If your using a carb/protein postworkout drink afterwards u will more than likely be wasting your money adding vitamin c

why?

 

[gamer2be08]

why?

Ya, what he said. I always understood that vitamin c, takin with a lot of water wont interfere with other nutrients..

 

[BringThePain]

why?

Do you honestly think a little vitamin c is going to help more than the insulin spike generated from a good post workout drink?

 

[Distilled Water]

Do you honestly think a little vitamin c is going to help more than the insulin spike generated from a good post workout drink?

I dont buy into the big insulin spike post workout. I've done it both ways over the years and well, meh. Only on TKD type diets do I think it really holds any merit.

Plus, what I asked and your reply really have nothing to do with each other. I asked why Vitamin C was a waste of money if taken with marco nutrients. You then came at me with the insulin spike questions, trying to get a gauge on things here.

 

[BringThePain]

I dont buy into the big insulin spike post workout. I've done it both ways over the years and well, meh. Only on TKD type diets do I think it really holds any merit.

Plus, what I asked and your reply really have nothing to do with each other. I asked why Vitamin C was a waste of money if taken with marco nutrients. You then came at me with the insulin spike questions, trying to get a gauge on things here.

Well i would seem to believe that cortisol would be well blunted from a good post workout nutrition. I doubt say a 1gram dose of vitamin c would do any good added into the mix. In my opinion a waste of money to add it post workout. Other times of the day maybe then vitamin c would be useful. But its not like it breaks the bank so if you wanna use it by all means do so.

 

[MentalTwitch]

Vitamin C is cheap. You could even mix your shake in OJ, get a little sugar and vitC.
I used to use VitC postWO, got it at grocery store. 500 tabs at 250mg each, buy one get one free, $9 or so.
I felt like if i took it postWO i lost my pump sooner. I am not sure if it was mental or what but i did.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Antioxidants prevent the body from generating its own antioxidant factors (particularly in mitochondira, where energy is produced. Metabolic adaptations are slower with antioxidants.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/149672.php

 

[Robboe]

It was an issue with anti-oxidants negatively affecting recovery when taken post workout I believe.

This. ROS appear to play a large role in the cellular signalling cascade that is triggered by training and leads to recovery and subsequent growth.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

So would taking Vitamin C preworkout benefit any. Keeping cortisol low before it gets a chance to rise.

 

[zodiiac523]

So would taking Vitamin C preworkout benefit any. Keeping cortisol low before it gets a chance to rise.

I do this, and i remember in another thread someone posted a study that taking it with a pre workout can pro long the effects of the pre workout.

 

[Distilled Water]

Well i would seem to believe that cortisol would be well blunted from a good post workout nutrition. I doubt say a 1gram dose of vitamin c would do any good added into the mix. In my opinion a waste of money to add it post workout. Other times of the day maybe then vitamin c would be useful. But its not like it breaks the bank so if you wanna use it by all means do so.

ok gotcha. I agree I dont think that 1gr Vit C will make or break anything either.

It has a host of benifits compared to it's price. I have a bottle of 500tabs @ 1gr a pop for like $10 I think. So for the price, I figure why not. Plus i think the effects it has on cortisol are overlooked.

 

[BringThePain]

ok gotcha. I agree I dont think that 1gr Vit C will make or break anything either.

It has a host of benifits compared to it's price. I have a bottle of 500tabs @ 1gr a pop for like $10 I think. So for the price, I figure why not. Plus i think the effects it has on cortisol are overlooked.

I dose 1 gram upon waking and have for the past 5 years so maybe its doing me some good after my 8 hour fast.

 

[eatingisfun]

http://www.enotalone.com/article/19584.html

I've heard that the short duration of post workout inflammation actually causes an increase in IGF-1 which antioxidants can prevent. I couldn't find a reference for this though.

 

[kingdong]

Well i would seem to believe that cortisol would be well blunted from a good post workout nutrition. I doubt say a 1gram dose of vitamin c would do any good added into the mix. In my opinion a waste of money to add it post workout. Other times of the day maybe then vitamin c would be useful. But its not like it breaks the bank so if you wanna use it by all means do so.

Hard to say. Considering that a slice of orange everyday is enough to prevent scurvy, I wouldn't rule this stuff out yet. Having said that though, we've also heard some reason's why it might be a bad idea, so the debate continues.

 

[mraa]

If your diet isn't lacking Vitamin C then you shouldn't worry about it. I add orange juice to my protein shakes. I feel fine. I actually like it better then adding just water or milk. If you cut out foods that contain Vitamin C from you diet then you should supplement it. Adding more to what you already have is just going to be negative. So if you get enough of it daily, then do not worry about adding in more. If you do not get enough, then you should add in more.

 

[Distilled Water]

If your diet isn't lacking Vitamin C then you shouldn't worry about it. I add orange juice to my protein shakes. I feel fine. I actually like it better then adding just water or milk. If you cut out foods that contain Vitamin C from you diet then you should supplement it. Adding more to what you already have is just going to be negative. So if you get enough of it daily, then do not worry about adding in more. If you do not get enough, then you should add in more.

Why would adding it be negative?

 

[kingdong]

If your diet isn't lacking Vitamin C then you shouldn't worry about it. I add orange juice to my protein shakes. I feel fine. I actually like it better then adding just water or milk. If you cut out foods that contain Vitamin C from you diet then you should supplement it. Adding more to what you already have is just going to be negative. So if you get enough of it daily, then do not worry about adding in more. If you do not get enough, then you should add in more.

While I believe it to be this simple with the zinc and magnesium in ZMA, I'm not so sure if it's this simple with C. I don't even know where to research though.

 

[BringThePain]

Why would adding it be negative?

X2

While I believe it to be this simple with the zinc and magnesium in ZMA, I'm not so sure if it's this simple with C. I don't even know where to research though.

www.google.com :bigok:

 

[mraa]

Why would adding it be negative?

Why would adding more Vitamin C be a positive? I think it would be negative because the more you exceed of any compound the more side effects you will see. So why add more to what you already do not need more of?

 

[rochabp]

everybody is wrong, but me, you guys all suck, and can kiss my @$$,and everyone just :bryce:
so this is for all of you-->:****you: :FUfinger: :FUfinger:





:ban:




im JK-ing guys i love you guys :smlove2: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Antioxidants prevent the body from generating its own antioxidant factors (particularly in mitochondira, where energy is produced. Metabolic adaptations are slower with antioxidants.

Right. The body does a great job of auto-regulating ROS during and after exercise, and adding exogenous antioxidants into the mix (especially C, E and NAC) interferes with the process. Body composition, strength, and overall performance will improve faster when keeping antioxidants away from workouts, cardio included.

Take Vitamin C between meals at other times of the day if using mineral ascorbates or ascorbic acid (I prefer the former), or take with a meal if using ascorbyl palmitate.

 

[MentalTwitch]

I find i odd no one brought up half life, its about 30 minutes i think. So if you wake up and take 1g at 8am. After 2 hour(10am) youre already done to about 62.5mg this isn't a ton but it's not that much either. I like to just drink OJ in the morn, if i get up and give my stomach enough time to settle im ok. I usually can't eat for about 30min of being awake or i have to go #2 right away.
I just think it's cheap enough to play with for a few weeks but don't expect anything major.

 

[Distilled Water]

Why would adding more Vitamin C be a positive? I think it would be negative because the more you exceed of any compound the more side effects you will see. So why add more to what you already do not need more of?

Because its water soulable and if im getting too much I'll piss it away.

Mental makes a good point, it has a short half life. I also think people are over looking it as a cortisol reducer/immune booster. Not too mention that millions of people take some form of ALA (alpha-lipoic-acid) post workout. Yes millions, including pro-level guys and it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more potent anti-oxident then vitamin C.

So this anti-ox crap about vit c postworkut being harmful to muscle growth because of it's anti-oxident properties is just that, CRAP!

 

[MentalTwitch]

Yes, the H20 soluble aspect is good and bad. Near impossible to hit toxic levels(if at all)
Im not familiar with anti-oxidants, do they all work in the same mechanism?
I think we all get plenty but if it's there then go for it. Greens like broccoli have a good amount also i believe.
Vitamin D should be supplemented first it think. I avoid the sun and take some once in awhile with milk, should be taken with calcium.

 

[Distilled Water]

Yes, the H20 soluble aspect is good and bad. Near impossible to hit toxic levels(if at all)
Im not familiar with anti-oxidants, do they all work in the same mechanism?
I think we all get plenty but if it's there then go for it. Greens like broccoli have a good amount also i believe.
Vitamin D should be supplemented first it think. I avoid the sun and take some once in awhile with milk, should be taken with calcium.

I take vitamin D3 with breakfast, and then I am out in the sun at least for an hour or 2 a day. Don't know if thats good or bad.

I just think people are over complicating this whole thing waaaaaaay too much. Every supplement mentioned in this thread is not goig to make or break someone building muscle, not even close.

 

[SouthernCharm]

I just think people are over complicating this whole thing waaaaaaay too much. Every supplement mentioned in this thread is not goig to make or break someone building muscle, not even close.

/thread . repped sir

 

[kingdong]

Because its water soulable and if im getting too much I'll piss it away.

Mental makes a good point, it has a short half life. I also think people are over looking it as a cortisol reducer/immune booster. Not too mention that millions of people take some form of ALA (alpha-lipoic-acid) post workout. Yes millions, including pro-level guys and it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more potent anti-oxident then vitamin C.

So this anti-ox crap about vit c postworkut being harmful to muscle growth because of it's anti-oxident properties is just that, CRAP!

Although I suspect your wright, I have to challenge the postworkout ALA analogy, considering that the increased insulin sensitivity from the ALA would probably make it more beneficial than the average antioxidant.

 

[Distilled Water]

Although I suspect your wright, I have to challenge the postworkout ALA analogy, considering that the increased insulin sensitivity from the ALA would probably make it more beneficial than the average antioxidant.

Yes, and that's exactly my point. The fact that it's such a strong anti-oxidant does virtually nothing to the body's ability for muscle growth.

 

[kingdong]

Yes, and that's exactly my point. The fact that it's such a strong anti-oxidant does virtually nothing to the body's ability for muscle growth.

What i meant though was that the benefits would outwal the negatives. We still havn't confirmed if its the same way with C.

 

[Outstanding]

This. ROS appear to play a large role in the cellular signalling cascade that is triggered by training and leads to recovery and subsequent growth.

I have read many articles on this, which is why I avoid NSAIDs and even Fish Oils in close proximity to a workout/post-workout because of their anti-inflammatory effect (AOs could also serve as a counter productive addition to a post workout shake in the same manner).

Its my understanding that the body must, in essence, incur injury by way of micro tears and trauma induced to lean tissue via Resistance Training, in order to stimulate the necessary anabolic reactions and biological machinery to achieve anabolism (in other words, without injury there is no impetus to 'heal' and overcompensate in advanced anticipation of future resistance bouts). By negating or lessening the intended controlled stress to the muscular system, there is a buffering affect that attenuates the full effect that could have been realized.

 

[Distilled Water]

What i meant though was that the benefits would outwal the negatives. We still havn't confirmed if its the same way with C.

I agree, it's a good point.

I can say this. I've been taking Vitamin C post workout on and off for nearly 2-3 years now. I've also made my best gains in this time. It's broscience I know. I also know I can't give a all the props to Vitamin C. My big thing is, and I'll repeat it, this isn't a big deal.

Just like the fish oil being counter productive and a mjor anti-inflammatory. I was taking 30gr/day, 5 gr with each meal (6 meals/day) and made great gains. Same as I had in the past except this time my joints felt better.

Non-Hormonal supplements dont make a huge deal with gains, IMO, period. Outside of things like creatine, ammino acids, and insuilin mimicking supplements. They dont make a HUGE difference, again IMO.

I'm doing a log supplement free and I'm done about 13lbs in just over 4 weeks and have lost over an inch on my waist. Haven't really taken anything other than Vitamin D3 in the morning and Vitamin C through the entire thing. I was taking Creatine and Glutamine for the first about 4 weeks but I ran out so they're gone. Strength hasn't takena huge dip either.

Some people are running hardcore fat-loss regimens and having the same results as me, some are even not doing as well as. At the end of the day these are just supplements, not food.

 

[Outstanding]

Non-Hormonal supplements dont make a huge deal with gains, IMO, period. Outside of things like creatine, ammino acids, and insuilin mimicking supplements. They dont make a HUGE difference, again IMO.

Agreed 101%

 

[kingdong]

Creatine makes a difference, but I don't know if I'd say that even it makes a HUGE difference.

While were off topic, is it true that beta alanine is just as good?

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Lots of subjective anecdote and very little science here.

Is taking Vitamin C post workout going to prevent anyone from building muscle, increasing strength, or losing fat? Of course not. Is it detrimental, and will it reduce the rate of MPS, and slow recovery? Most likely, according to the research. Acutely, you won't be optimized for your next workout, chronically (6 months or more) you would have probably made quite a bit more progress skipping the vitamin C post workout and taking it other times during the day, all other things being equal.

Worrying about cortisol post workout is really barking up the wrong tree. Look at the big picture, studies show post workout antioxidants (particularly C&E) slow recovery and reduce MPS. So what if your cortisol was a little lower after training? Are you training for reduced cortisol or are you training to make progress with your physique?

And lipoic acid is a bad idea post workout, and appealing to the authority of the pros is nonsense. When somebody is on 4g of test a week and has absurd genetics, I'm really not interested in their supplement protocol.

Post workout, muscle cell insulin sensitivity is very high and there is no need for lipoic acid. I would argue the opposite being more effective, and so does the science. This is why caffeine taken post workout (which induces insulin resistance) actually causes increased nutrient uptake at the muscle cell. It causes whole body IR, but because of the extremely elevated IS at the muscle cell, nutrients are partitioned completely away from the fat cells and directed into the muscle cells, even more so than without the caffeine. And most people are drinking some form of macronutrients during training, which will interfere with the absorption of lipoic acid post workout anyway.

When I have clients use lipoic acid (Na-R-ala), I'll have them use it 15 minutes before their 2nd post workout meal, and if they have any other high carb meals throughout the day, but certainly not post workout.

 

[kingdong]

When somebody is on 4g of test a week and has absurd genetics, I'm really not interested in their supplement protocol.

Kuddos on the 4 grams of test comment. It's really a whole different ball game for those guys. In fact, the guys on roids have different uses for supps. For example, a cortisol lowering supp woulld probably help them respond better to all that test.

 

[Distilled Water]

Oh yea, I forgot. All pro's are on 4gr of test a week, how silly of me.

 

[marco wolf]

Lots of subjective anecdote and very little science here.

Is taking Vitamin C post workout going to prevent anyone from building muscle, increasing strength, or losing fat? Of course not. Is it detrimental, and will it reduce the rate of MPS, and slow recovery? Most likely, according to the research. Acutely, you won't be optimized for your next workout, chronically (6 months or more) you would have probably made quite a bit more progress skipping the vitamin C post workout and taking it other times during the day, all other things being equal.

Worrying about cortisol post workout is really barking up the wrong tree. Look at the big picture, studies show post workout antioxidants (particularly C&E) slow recovery and reduce MPS. So what if your cortisol was a little lower after training? Are you training for reduced cortisol or are you training to make progress with your physique?

And lipoic acid is a bad idea post workout, and appealing to the authority of the pros is nonsense. When somebody is on 4g of test a week and has absurd genetics, I'm really not interested in their supplement protocol.

Post workout, muscle cell insulin sensitivity is very high and there is no need for lipoic acid. I would argue the opposite being more effective, and so does the science. This is why caffeine taken post workout (which induces insulin resistance) actually causes increased nutrient uptake at the muscle cell. It causes whole body IR, but because of the extremely elevated IS at the muscle cell, nutrients are partitioned completely away from the fat cells and directed into the muscle cells, even more so than without the caffeine. And most people are drinking some form of macronutrients during training, which will interfere with the absorption of lipoic acid post workout anyway.

When I have clients use lipoic acid (Na-R-ala), I'll have them use it 15 minutes before their 2nd post workout meal, and if they have any other high carb meals throughout the day, but certainly not post workout.

How long post workout are we talking about before supplementing with vitamin C?

 

[kingdong]

Oh yea, I forgot. All pro's are on 4gr of test a week, how silly of me.

I don't know if the body can even handle 4g of test. I don't think anyone was implying that anyone on this thread was roided at all, but I bet Dr. Gonzo could elaborate. I liked it because in roids might like different supplements, and we should think about this before we take their advice.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

How long post workout are we talking about before supplementing with vitamin C?

I typically have people take a post workout shake, then wait for the initial stages of hypoglycemia to kick in (typically 30-90min), then have a solid food meal. About an hour after this meal I usually recommend taking 1g Vit C (mineral ascorbates) and sometimes 600mg NAC depending on their protocol. Of course there are variations to this, but basically just try to leave at least a 1-2 meal buffer, and at least a couple of hours.

My test comment was hyperbolic to emphasize a point, one that was apparently lost on some people. I recently had a conversation with a friend about this, as I was giving him **** for using a post workout formula that contained antioxidants. His response was "dude, I'm on so much test I'm really not worried about it". Which I found to be a great point.

If you're on a decent amount of gear, the little things don't matter...and you'll make plenty of progress doing things that would be detrimental to people who aren't on gear. Hell anything over 500mg of test a week and you can start writing off quite a bit of the small stuff. And I'm all for people using gear, but we need to realize it changes things, and not try to blindly follow diet/exercise/supplement protocols of people that are working with an entirely different hormonal milieu.

 

[purebred]

I think people fail to take into account how processed and nutritionally depleted our soil is nowadays. In addition, ODIs should be taken into account as well when speaking of vitamins and minerals.

 

[kingdong]

ODI's?

 

[purebred]

ODI's?

Yes, Optimal Daily Intake.