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    fatloss help


    ok, since I posted last people have discouraged me from running PH's at my current weight and bf%, so I need some suggestions on something I can use with my diet and training to accelerate my sub-cutaneous fatloss..have taken fat burners in the past, but wondering if there is something out there I don't know about or have not tried....thanks, your help is appreciated more than you know and I can post my diet and workouts if necessary

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    i took fat loss supplements on a cutting phase, relied on it like i relie on protein and i actually gained more body fat! if you want to cut... in my opinion.. get your diet on point and add more calisthenics and cardio to your work out plans and voila! oh and while cutting go back to not eating for up to 4 hours before bed. ( this is all my successful and simple way to cut )
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    ^^^What he said

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    sounds good, thanks fellas...I have a diet in place thats 1450 cals a day, and I do cardio in the morning and after my workout in the evening, im just trying to shed the weight I put on after some knee surgeries
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    ohhh, knee surgeries eh?
    my close friend and cousin had a bomb out on his knee, its been 3 years and he finally feels like getting back on his game. he still has problems and pains with it, i wouldnt let that discourage you bro. he got really down due to it and it really warped him up he's super skinny and smokes alot of pot now
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    haha, yeah I have had 7 surgeries to this point and still need more, but I told my surgeon that I wanted to lose the weight before I had another one...I tore my ACL in high school and then really ruined it in college so I just wanna get back to that 230 frame I had when I wrestled haha
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    don't be discourage just believe in and motivate yourself. Yes you can take fat loss medicine but don't forget to try the natural way. ..
    You can do it!
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    oh I have no doubt I can do it, im just wondering if it is really worth getting something to help me out as far as fatloss supplements go, I have taken thermogenics before, I just dont know if its really gonna make that much of a difference anyway since I am already running a pretty hefty caloric deficit
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    A great diet, great training and motivation will get you a long way. After I had that in line I took dermatherm target and loved it. if you pair that up with yellow thunder, oep or something of the like you will shred up my friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fightbackhxc View Post
    A great diet, great training and motivation will get you a long way. After I had that in line I took dermatherm target and loved it. if you pair that up with yellow thunder, oep or something of the like you will shred up my friend.
    this, diet is most important but products like our dermatherm or fat loss stack aid in the process.......as should be the way for any supplement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweb71 View Post
    sounds good, thanks fellas...I have a diet in place thats 1450 cals a day, and I do cardio in the morning and after my workout in the evening, im just trying to shed the weight I put on after some knee surgeries
    Unless your 5 foot, 130 pounds... your diet is lacking big time if your only eating 1400 cals. You are under-eating big time and need to re-evaluate and utilize resources to build a more complete, cutting meal plan.

    On a side note, your cardio schedule looks great!
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    Yeah, 1500 cals isn't nearly enough. You probably need to be at more like 2500 with moderate activity. You didn't gain the weight in a short span of time, trying to lose it in a short span of time is silly
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    Not eating for four hours before bed is ridiculous. This is actually a fantastic way to lose weight, muscle weight. Your body will begin to eat your muscle while you sleep. So weight you will lose, fat you will keep. Eat a slow digesting protein right before you go to bed. Casein, cottage cheese, etc. Avoiding dry carbs near the end of the day is a good idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo15 View Post
    Not eating for four hours before bed is ridiculous. This is actually a fantastic way to lose weight, muscle weight. Your body will begin to eat your muscle while you sleep. So weight you will lose, fat you will keep. Eat a slow digesting protein right before you go to bed. Casein, cottage cheese, etc. Avoiding dry carbs near the end of the day is a good idea.
    Sorry, but thats a bunch of broscience. Show a single peer reviewed study that shows anything like that at all. Heres a study with full alternate day fasting - no eating from midnight to midnight alternating days, and the subjects still lost mostly fat. - .8/lbs of fat to .6lbs of muscle lost in 22 days.

    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/81/1/69

    And here's another on the Ramadan style fasting, basically no eating during daylight hours (so 18 hours a day roughly) showing a 1lb loss of overall mass, with .6lbs being fat, and .4 being muscle.

    http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB...name=66413.pdf

    And note that neither of these were high protein diets, so would be lucky if the people even got USRDA of protein, much less any more. A steak eaten at 6pm is still being digested till after 4am....
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    I am confused as to what you are proving with those studies? This is a genuine question.

    The first you say he lost .8lb fat per .6 of muscle. So almost a 50/50 split? That is a muscle loss diet in my opinion.

    The second as well, is slightly better then a 50/50 split.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    I am confused as to what you are proving with those studies? This is a genuine question.

    The first you say he lost .8lb fat per .6 of muscle. So almost a 50/50 split? That is a muscle loss diet in my opinion.

    The second as well, is slightly better then a 50/50 split.
    Well, the first is 57/43, and the second is 60/40

    The point is that going 12 hours without food isn't horribly catabolic and a muscle loss diet, when its not what I would consider a muscle loss diet at 18 or 24 hours without food. Remember as well these studies were done with people taking in less than maintenance calories, so in a loss cycle. If they were at maintenance calories for the day, there wouldn't have been some horrible muscle only loss.... Plus the people in those studies were eating their normal day to day diets so were likely low on protein to begin with, particularly the study on Muslims for Ramadan. Their diets are soooooo carb rich and protein light to begin with.

    Truthfully regardless of what people say broscience wise as far as any other sort of dieting, again i'd like to see a study with dexa scans or water bath testing that shows any diet giving all that much better a ratio than 60/40 for losses.
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    In that frame of mind it will come down to personal preference. Personally, I side with Jimbo on this one, though not discrediting your view.

    To me, multiple well calculated meals is a much better and effecient way to promote fat loss then to take on any form of a fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweb71 View Post
    ok, since I posted last people have discouraged me from running PH's at my current weight and bf%, so I need some suggestions on something I can use with my diet and training to accelerate my sub-cutaneous fatloss..have taken fat burners in the past, but wondering if there is something out there I don't know about or have not tried....thanks, your help is appreciated more than you know and I can post my diet and workouts if necessary
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    and the four hours before bed time thing, im pretty sure dude wants to loose weight either way man and this is the best way thats ever worked from me when i was 15 i weighed 200 + pounds of a bunch of fat and in a few months i dropped nearly 60 pounds no **** with a veryy strict diet and lots of cardio weights and basketball
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    alright few wasnt the right word before i get too much negative feed back the actual time span was almost 7 months
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo15 View Post
    Not eating for four hours before bed is ridiculous. This is actually a fantastic way to lose weight, muscle weight. Your body will begin to eat your muscle while you sleep. So weight you will lose, fat you will keep. Eat a slow digesting protein right before you go to bed. Casein, cottage cheese, etc. Avoiding dry carbs near the end of the day is a good idea.
    I side with EasyEJL, too many people think they are going to radically go catabolic if they aren't eating every 3hrs or eating a slow-release protein before bed.

    In the long run total calories dictate the result.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robboe View Post
    I side with EasyEJL, too many people think they are going to radically go catabolic if they aren't eating every 3hrs or eating a slow-release protein before bed.

    In the long run total calories dictate the result.
    The thing is, Jimbo was moreso (or at least from my interpretation) indicating the best way to go about it. Sure someone who fasts can still gain muscle/lose a decent amount of fat/whatever. But its not the best way.

    Perfect example are some of the "huge" guys in my gym. Big mother****ers, probably though a few cycles. Although, at half their size I some times cringe at the sight of their attempt at good form on certain lifts. Did it stop them from getting big? Not at all, but I am sure it wasn't the most productive, best way to go about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    The thing is, Jimbo was moreso (or at least from my interpretation) indicating the best way to go about it. Sure someone who fasts can still gain muscle/lose a decent amount of fat/whatever. But its not the best way.
    Unless an extreme ectomorph, i think it actually might be the best way. Maybe not with extended periods of fasting like 16hrs, but i definately think spending a few hours with protein synthesis switched off can be a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    The thing is, Jimbo was moreso (or at least from my interpretation) indicating the best way to go about it. Sure someone who fasts can still gain muscle/lose a decent amount of fat/whatever. But its not the best way.

    Perfect example are some of the "huge" guys in my gym. Big mother****ers, probably though a few cycles. Although, at half their size I some times cringe at the sight of their attempt at good form on certain lifts. Did it stop them from getting big? Not at all, but I am sure it wasn't the most productive, best way to go about it.
    Yeah, but at 80+ lbs overweight honestly getting to worried about small details that will make less just a couple % difference. He's got 6+ months before that sort of difference is really worth the effort.

    I guess its the "analysis paralysis" that was more or less why I mentioned it. So many guys spend more time worrying about some of the smaller details that will make a minimal difference than concentrating on the overall long term big picture.

    You are right though about a lot of the guys, doing even the wrong thing for long enough time still gets results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Well, the first is 57/43, and the second is 60/40

    The point is that going 12 hours without food isn't horribly catabolic and a muscle loss diet, when its not what I would consider a muscle loss diet at 18 or 24 hours without food. Remember as well these studies were done with people taking in less than maintenance calories, so in a loss cycle. If they were at maintenance calories for the day, there wouldn't have been some horrible muscle only loss.... Plus the people in those studies were eating their normal day to day diets so were likely low on protein to begin with, particularly the study on Muslims for Ramadan. Their diets are soooooo carb rich and protein light to begin with.

    Truthfully regardless of what people say broscience wise as far as any other sort of dieting, again i'd like to see a study with dexa scans or water bath testing that shows any diet giving all that much better a ratio than 60/40 for losses.
    I agree with you. I'm not sure why people think that sleeping (or sitting around watching tv or reading before you go to bed) is such a physically intense activity that the body will break down muscle for immediate energy...
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    Agreed on the details to a certain point. I am someone who tries to read every study that comes in front of me when I have the time. Do I think it is beneficial to me? Yes. But it also makes me get very tied up over things that in my situation most likely make very tiny difference. So it definitely does go both ways, some good, some bad...I just take comfort in knowing I am doing it the best I can.
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    if you can handdle it my friend plyometrics, that stuff will rip you up my bud it works for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by rochabp View Post
    if you can handdle it my friend plyometrics, that stuff will rip you up my bud it works for me
    That makes me sweat hard enough to fill a pool, good stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereToStudy View Post
    That makes me sweat hard enough to fill a pool, good stuff.
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    Gotta tell you, I agree 100%. Ive never been leaner in my life than when I stopped eating all food by 7pm and went to bed at 10pm. Also, I had green veggies only for my last meal so some fiber and trivial amount of protein.

    I got shredded and kept muscle.

    More faulty logic, eating ridiculous amount of either protein or calories to maintain muscle mass.

    Bottom line, everyone is different. Period.

    Im 210 at 5'11 and in my 40's maybe 10%. I eat about 2,000 calories for maintenance and when I got peeled a year ago, I was eating about 1,500 calories at only 150 grams of protein. (Lots of calories from EFA's).

    I've never been fatter when I ate a super clean 3,000 calories (60-65% of which was lean protein) to gain some lean mass .

    Again, we are all created differently, have different energy needs, have different activity levels, etc. To create a universal plan for everyone reading is simply ilogical.

    Of course I hate having to eat 2,000 calories. But to look how I wish to look, that is my sacrifice. Some are lucky enough solely have to reduce their carbs a tad, go DOWN to 3,000 calories (lol), and do some cardio, not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Well, the first is 57/43, and the second is 60/40

    The point is that going 12 hours without food isn't horribly catabolic and a muscle loss diet, when its not what I would consider a muscle loss diet at 18 or 24 hours without food. Remember as well these studies were done with people taking in less than maintenance calories, so in a loss cycle. If they were at maintenance calories for the day, there wouldn't have been some horrible muscle only loss.... Plus the people in those studies were eating their normal day to day diets so were likely low on protein to begin with, particularly the study on Muslims for Ramadan. Their diets are soooooo carb rich and protein light to begin with.

    Truthfully regardless of what people say broscience wise as far as any other sort of dieting, again i'd like to see a study with dexa scans or water bath testing that shows any diet giving all that much better a ratio than 60/40 for losses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10bathroomsO View Post
    and the four hours before bed time thing, im pretty sure dude wants to loose weight either way man and this is the best way thats ever worked from me when i was 15 i weighed 200 + pounds of a bunch of fat and in a few months i dropped nearly 60 pounds no **** with a veryy strict diet and lots of cardio weights and basketball
    Glad it worked for you bro.
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    I agree that everyone is different. I've seen some good points in this thread. I personally will stay away from anything that would cause me to lose almost as much muscle as fat though. I've found that I can stay more lean when I consume a slow digesting protein about 30-60 minutes before bed. Plus, I can't sleep if I'm too hungry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Yeah, but at 80+ lbs overweight honestly getting to worried about small details that will make less just a couple % difference. He's got 6+ months before that sort of difference is really worth the effort.

    I guess its the "analysis paralysis" that was more or less why I mentioned it. So many guys spend more time worrying about some of the smaller details that will make a minimal difference than concentrating on the overall long term big picture.

    You are right though about a lot of the guys, doing even the wrong thing for long enough time still gets results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I've never been fatter when I ate a super clean 3,000 calories (60-65% of which was lean protein) to gain some lean mass .
    This comes down to the fact that you were probably eating significantly more then you were burning. If you were looking to lose weight you should have been in a deficit. If you were looking to maintain, you should have ate maitenance calories. And if you wanted to gain, you eat slightly more then you use.
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    yes but then again it all depends on wich way the guy wants to go when he looses the weight, i will admit that it took me longer to gain more strength and muscle after i lost the weight, i mean yes i was cut up but i couldnt benchpress 180 to save my life
    and the road back up to heavy weights is got a lot of injuries in store unless your supper careful and practice good form. because honestly i believe in my own trial and error that loosing the weight aint the only thing you loose your bones are weaker everything is weaker than you want it to be if you wanna push heavy weight
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    ill say it again plyometrics will do wonders if you can handdle it, you might cry your first time but man it is worth it big time
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10bathroomsO View Post
    yes but then again it all depends on wich way the guy wants to go when he looses the weight, i will admit that it took me longer to gain more strength and muscle after i lost the weight, i mean yes i was cut up but i couldnt benchpress 180 to save my life
    and the road back up to heavy weights is got a lot of injuries in store unless your supper careful and practice good form. because honestly i believe in my own trial and error that loosing the weight aint the only thing you loose your bones are weaker everything is weaker than you want it to be if you wanna push heavy weight
    bones aren't really weaker, tendons and joints are kinda. Less BF there to cusion them. You had been dieting hardcore for 12 weeks or so. After this time is a great time to really add some serious MASS! gotta just know what your doing and ease into it.

    I've never really had a problem gaining strength back after a cut. In a few weeks time Im back to where I was when the diet started.
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    what i did wasnt really " a cut " i was fat as hell and went straight to cutting exercises and did them everyday for almost 7 months. I lost alot of weight. it took me a year to get to a full healthy look after i did that
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10bathroomsO View Post
    what i did wasnt really " a cut " i was fat as hell and went straight to cutting exercises and did them everyday for almost 7 months. I lost alot of weight. it took me a year to get to a full healthy look after i did that
    damn son! why didnt you say that?!?!?! props to you for losing the weight!
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