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Tachycardia linked to Chronic Stim use

Whacked

Whacked

Well-known member
I use a stim every day and have for 7+ years. Started using them when the kids (2) arrived. :D

Coffee (200 mg caffeine) with breakfast 5:00 am and ONE stim like Venom, Viper, RMP, or Leviathin, etc (I rotate the brands) at 7:00 am for my 8:00 am workout. I do not dose stims 2-3x/day hpwever I DO use these daily! Morning only.

Helps me get out of bed in the morning and get thru my morning workout.

Should I have any concerns?

Yes, I'm addicted, sort of. Not in that sense but in the fact I am a lazy ass without them and overeating thereby exacerbating the problem by eating too much and consequently wanting to lounge around more. LOL

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I'm worried about the chronicity of use and its cumulative effects. Im prolly screwed :(
 
I've had atrial fibrillation from too much caffeine. It took me a while to figure out what it actually was. It's a weird feeling, it feels like part of your heart is pumping but you don't have a pulse for the duration of 4-5 regular heart beats. Then after the fibrillation stops you get a big pulse from the main pumping chamber of your heart. Laying off the stims for me gets rid of this as well as keeping stim usage low. If you don't have any palpitations or abnormal heart rhythm you're probably ok.
 
Ah, I missed that, steveoph. Regardless, I wouldn't worry about it for the average healthy user. That dude was in his 50's, sat all day every day, and likely never worked out. A sample of 1 is not a trend. On the other hand, studies have been done on the heaviest coffee consumers (fins in first place, with arabs in 2nd), and the higher the use, the higher the benefits for anti-parkinsons, etc, but I've never seen cardiomyopathy reported.
 
poison said:
Ah, I missed that, steveoph. Regardless, I wouldn't worry about it for the average healthy user. That dude was in his 50's, sat all day every day, and likely never worked out. A sample of 1 is not a trend. On the other hand, studies have been done on the heaviest coffee consumers (fins in first place, with arabs in 2nd), and the higher the use, the higher the benefits for anti-parkinsons, etc, but I've never seen cardiomyopathy reported.
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I've read the same thing, many articles and studies showing all the benefits of caffeine. Id say do what feels best for you if you feel anything out of the ordinary look into it.
 
btw, 600mg + ephedra is not at all like caffeine alone. The cardio-stimulatory effects would be exponentially stronger.
 
No sir

Sorry to hear of your diagnosis :(

Sean1332 said:
Wacked- Did anything result from stim use? My doc just told me I have tachycardia today.
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Whacked said:
No sir

Sorry to hear of your diagnosis :(
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Was just curious. Thanks though. I'll post an update here in a couple weeks when I see the cardiologist to see if there's anything pertaining to my stim usage or if there's just something wrong with me.
 
Good luck mang ;)

Sean1332 said:
Was just curious. Thanks though. I'll post an update here in a couple weeks when I see the cardiologist to see if there's anything pertaining to my stim usage or if there's just something wrong with me.
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This is just a case report of a single individual getting afib from consuming caffeine. In the face of a library of longterm safety studies (trials, not case reports) on caffeine.
 
Whacked said:
No sir

Sorry to hear of your diagnosis :(
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Sean1332 said:
Was just curious. Thanks though. I'll post an update here in a couple weeks when I see the cardiologist to see if there's anything pertaining to my stim usage or if there's just something wrong with me.
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Lol tachycardia is merely a finding. To confirm actual pathology, they'll need to run an ECG.

Did you take any stimulants or conduct any exercise prior to your doctor taking your pulse?
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Lol tachycardia is merely a finding. To confirm actual pathology, they'll need to run an ECG.

Did you take any stimulants or conduct any exercise prior to your doctor taking your pulse?
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Yes I understand its a finding and the only caffeine or exercise was beyond 18 hours of my appointment. Also my pulse was below 100 and only documented above 100 once so that irritated me. I'm asymptomatic, even though I'm still in a healthy range, even at the high end. My EKG results were normal. The issue was, that it's been documented in the 90's since 2009.

I'm in the military though and they make a big deal about everything. I'm also taking it seriously because they're quick to discharge people nowadays with medical reasons, and they're quick to make a big deal out of things-even with a bullsh1t finding (I'm not saying this is worthy of a medical review board by any means, but I want to make sure they don't **** anything up for me). My wife was in that process and had to fight to stay in. So, I know this really isn't a big deal. My father was a flight surgeon and now anesthesiologist and my mom has her PHD and they both said its bullsh1t they called it tachycardia below 100bpm and they always seem to disagree with a low ranking officer MD's medical advice. I talked to them about it last night. It's my career though. Still have to see the cardiologist. At least he can tell the mil doc to not worry.
 
From your info - you are 5'9 217 and in good shape like ur pic......I wouldnt be happy with even 85 as a resting pulse. I think 90 is unhealthy resting pulse from what I read. :(

Sean1332 said:
Yes I understand its a finding and the only caffeine or exercise was beyond 18 hours of my appointment. Also my pulse was below 100 and only documented above 100 once so that irritated me. I'm asymptomatic, even though I'm still in a healthy range, even at the high end. My EKG results were normal. The issue was, that it's been documented in the 90's since 2009.

I'm in the military though and they make a big deal about everything. I'm also taking it seriously because they're quick to discharge people nowadays with medical reasons, and they're quick to make a big deal out of things-even with a bullsh1t finding (I'm not saying this is worthy of a medical review board by any means, but I want to make sure they don't **** anything up for me). My wife was in that process and had to fight to stay in. So, I know this really isn't a big deal. My father was a flight surgeon and now anesthesiologist and my mom has her PHD and they both said its bullsh1t they called it tachycardia below 100bpm and they always seem to disagree with a low ranking officer MD's medical advice. I talked to them about it last night. It's my career though. Still have to see the cardiologist. At least he can tell the mil doc to not worry.
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Whacked said:
From your info - you are 5'9 217 and in good shape like ur pic......I wouldnt be happy with even 85 as a resting pulse. I think 90 is unhealthy resting pulse from what I read. :(
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I'm in good shape. Lift 4x a week, 2-3x week will be sled pulls and sprints, 2x a week will be PT for work. 90 is obviously higher than it should be BUT it's still under 100..lol

A stim break by itself could fix the issue. I have never taken a break from stims. I avoid dmaa products and I don't exceed 400mg of caffeine. Regardless, I don't want my docs gettin carried away with stuff.
 
I hear ya mang ;)
 
eatingisfun said:
I've had atrial fibrillation from too much caffeine. It took me a while to figure out what it actually was. It's a weird feeling, it feels like part of your heart is pumping but you don't have a pulse for the duration of 4-5 regular heart beats. Then after the fibrillation stops you get a big pulse from the main pumping chamber of your heart. Laying off the stims for me gets rid of this as well as keeping stim usage low. If you don't have any palpitations or abnormal heart rhythm you're probably ok.
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How the hell did you no u had afib without an ecg, and even better, you managed to self cardiovert yourself. You sir are a freakin genius!

I think you experienced something the general public likes to call palpitations. Afib is dangerous and deadly from coagulation and clots.
 
Whacked said:
I use a stim every day and have for 7+ years. Started using them when the kids (2) arrived. :D
Helps me get out of bed in the morning and get thru my morning workout.

... Should I have any concerns? ...
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Yes, be concerned. Be very concerned! Be concerned that you're suffering from an extreme case of Wussy Syndrome. :p j/k

Man, I took 60mg of Add and/or Dex for 10+ years, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 200ug T4 with a resting PR of NLT 90 for over 20 years, and a contradictory heart condition the whole time (prolonged delta-T with pre-V ex). So if I'm still kickin' after all the stuff I've done, you got it made bro. Seriously, tachycardia doesn't shorten life span from my observation. Now chronically elevated BP, that can cause concern, but that's on the opposite side of your question.

Caffeine can be problematic endocrinologically. If you cross a daily threshold it can encourage aromatase activity, but you'd notice if that happened.

Bottom line, after you have a few rug rats to deal with it's reasonable to anticipate using stims indefinitely. :)
 
I think chronic stim usage DOES lead to increased heart rate. Mine is steady at 90 all day long pretty much (but then again its usually taken after a short walk to the pharmacy...). I pray I see 85 or something like that anymore. the only thing I can really blame it on is stim usage in my 20's (ECYA and some clen occasionally). My cardiologist cannot explain it, my echo comes back at 50% or so....I take coreg (slows heart rate down) and I take a dosage a 250 man might take....yet it still stays steady at 90 beats per minute. My cardio said its fine, don't worry about it, and the BP/pulse machine says its "normal"....but I don't like it. I did use PH's off and on, and "steroids" and everything associated for a few years 31-33....but the only chronic constant was stims.
 
AnabolicHolic said:
I think chronic stim usage DOES lead to increased heart rate. Mine is steady at 90 all day long pretty much (but then again its usually taken after a short walk to the pharmacy...). I pray I see 85 or something like that anymore. the only thing I can really blame it on is stim usage in my 20's (ECYA and some clen occasionally). My cardiologist cannot explain it, my echo comes back at 50% or so....I take coreg (slows heart rate down) and I take a dosage a 250 man might take....yet it still stays steady at 90 beats per minute. My cardio said its fine, don't worry about it, and the BP/pulse machine says its "normal"....but I don't like it. I did use PH's off and on, and "steroids" and everything associated for a few years 31-33....but the only chronic constant was stims.
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Chronic clinical beta-agonist use could absolutely lead to increased HR because it causes pathological left ventricular hypertrophy, which decreases stroke volume leading to an increase in HR to maintain cardiac output.

This is in sharp contrast to caffeine which has no data suggesting it causes myocardial hypertrophy. Even ephedrine and clen should be safe if consumed reasonably​
 
Right....I believe that is exactly what happened. Everything in moderation. But many of us are unaware of these possible long term consequences, esp when we are young. I fear many of our members abuse stims way too much though. But yes I was talking about ephedrine and Clen specifically...caffeine was just one of the adjuncts. Clen is especially nasty.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Chronic clinical beta-agonist use could absolutely lead to increased HR because it causes pathological left ventricular hypertrophy, which decreases stroke volume leading to an increase in HR to maintain cardiac output.

This is in sharp contrast to caffeine which has no data suggesting it causes myocardial hypertrophy. Even ephedrine and clen should be safe if consumed reasonably
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What would be a beta agonist commonly used? If memory recalls correctly, isnt ephedrine and clen beta agonists?
 
Dr D - well there's a old blast from the distant past! How the heck are rya man!

Good to see ya around ;)

DR.D said:
Yes, be concerned. Be very concerned! Be concerned that you're suffering from an extreme case of Wussy Syndrome. :p j/k

Man, I took 60mg of Add and/or Dex for 10+ years, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 200ug T4 with a resting PR of NLT 90 for over 20 years, and a contradictory heart condition the whole time (prolonged delta-T with pre-V ex). So if I'm still kickin' after all the stuff I've done, you got it made bro. Seriously, tachycardia doesn't shorten life span from my observation. Now chronically elevated BP, that can cause concern, but that's on the opposite side of your question.

Caffeine can be problematic endocrinologically. If you cross a daily threshold it can encourage aromatase activity, but you'd notice if that happened.

Bottom line, after you have a few rug rats to deal with it's reasonable to anticipate using stims indefinitely. :)
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Whacked said:
Dr D - well there's a old blast from the distant past! How the heck are rya man!

Good to see ya around ;)
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I'm still around my brotha! Just doin' the family man thing, and getting old.

You're still looking great, so you must be doing something right. It's funny how chasing kids around can take your body fat levels to new lows you never thought were possible with normal training. :)
 
Hahah aint that the truth! lol

Thanks for the compliment ;)

Good to see ya around bro!

DR.D said:
I'm still around my brotha! Just doin' the family man thing, and getting old.

You're still looking great, so you must be doing something right. It's funny how chasing kids around can take your body fat levels to new lows you never thought were possible with normal training. :)
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Whacked said:
I'm worried about the chronicity of use and its cumulative effects. Im prolly screwed :(
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You're not "screwed" so don't freak out about it but it is definitely good to start tapering down now. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist and definitely causes upregulation of adenosine receptors leading to the need for more and more caffeine to have the same effect, this is probably why you may feel terrible if you don't get a similar amount that you are used to getting on a daily basis on any particular day. One good thing here is adenosine receptors tend to up and down regulate fairly quickly so if you can start tapering your dosage every 3 days you should start feeling better. I would say taper by about 10-15% every 3 days until you are within a reasonable range. This process will help with the withdrawals.

As for the chronic effects on the heart, this can become an issue long term if you don't get it under control. The problem here is caffeine makes your heart work harder than it needs to. By increasing heart rate and blood pressure your heart can thicken, decreasing the atrial and ventricular volumes and lose its elasticity leading to further complications (called ventricular hypertrophy).

Bottom line, start decreasing now so you don't have to worry later!
 
Athletix said:
You're not "screwed" so don't freak out about it but it is definitely good to start tapering down now. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist and definitely causes upregulation of adenosine receptors leading to the need for more and more caffeine to have the same effect, this is probably why you may feel terrible if you don't get a similar amount that you are used to getting on a daily basis on any particular day. One good thing here is adenosine receptors tend to up and down regulate fairly quickly so if you can start tapering your dosage every 3 days you should start feeling better. I would say taper by about 10-15% every 3 days until you are within a reasonable range. This process will help with the withdrawals.

As for the chronic effects on the heart, this can become an issue long term if you don't get it under control. The problem here is caffeine makes your heart work harder than it needs to. By increasing heart rate and blood pressure your heart can thicken, decreasing the atrial and ventricular volumes and lose its elasticity leading to further complications (called ventricular hypertrophy).

Bottom line, start decreasing now so you don't have to worry later!
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Well said and one of the reasons i am on a beta blocker. I nor my cardiologist was comfortable with my heart rate in the upper 80s, with coreg its low 60s.

Mike
 
criticalbench said:
Well said and one of the reasons i am on a beta blocker. I nor my cardiologist was comfortable with my heart rate in the upper 80s, with coreg its low 60s.

Mike
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Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
 
criticalbench said:
How the hell did you no u had afib without an ecg, and even better, you managed to self cardiovert yourself. You sir are a freakin genius!

I think you experienced something the general public likes to call palpitations. Afib is dangerous and deadly from coagulation and clots.
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Your arguing with someone who made a post like 3 years ago lol ;)
 
Athletix said:
Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
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If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. :D (j/k Mike)

Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?
 
DR.D said:
If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. :D (j/k Mike)

Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?
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No, we are talking tachycardia related to left ventricular hypertrophy as a result of undiagnosed sleep apnea.

Left ventricular function to date has been restored and size has reduced back to normal with coreg and my ace inhibitor.

I take 12.5mg twice a day and love it. I suffer no side effects what so ever, my blood sugar remains stable, my libido is fine as is my energy levels. I gain normal weight in the offseason and easily diet down to single digit bodyfat levels for shows.

Mike
 
DR.D said:
If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. :D (j/k Mike)

Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?
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Coreg was chosen due to its positive inotropic effect.
 
Athletix said:
Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
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Sorry guys my fone doesnt let me multi quote people!

6.25 didnt do anything. 12.5 twice a day has been great. Coreg makes me feel 100x better all around. I feel that coreg actually makes me feel more energetic.
 
I take 50mg twice a day :D.....and yes its "doctor prescribed". Despite the increases in dosage, it doesn't seem to lower me below 80's. he/we just kept increasing it since we figured eventually i could get to 60's or so. Never happened. I need to see where I am at when I'm not using anything except the androgel. I might be jacking up my heart rate due to using some PH and AAS lately that I hadn't used in like 7 years....
 
criticalbench said:
No, we are talking tachycardia related to left ventricular hypertrophy as a result of undiagnosed sleep apnea.

Left ventricular function to date has been restored and size has reduced back to normal with coreg and my ace inhibitor.

I take 12.5mg twice a day and love it. I suffer no side effects what so ever, my blood sugar remains stable, my libido is fine as is my energy levels. I gain normal weight in the offseason and easily diet down to single digit bodyfat levels for shows.

Mike
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Well that actually sounds pretty good, Mike. It's all good so long as you get a happy ending.

My point is that caffeine gets a bad rap more times than not, so it seems people are generally scared of it without reason. That kind of irrational fear inevitably leads folks into making poor health choices, even when they have the best of intentions.

For example, chronic caffeine intake is shown to decrease circulating catecholamines, thus preventing diet-induced insulin resistance and hypertension. That's the exact benefit that you say your Coreg provides, so it seems you've just exchanged one for another. But which would do you better? First of all, caffeine is natural with a very long track record, unlike carvedilol which may be the next class-action drug withdrawn from the market for all anybody knows. Also, caffeine increases your respiratory function to promote reduction of apnea, but carvedilol tends to worsen lung congestion and possibly complicate breathing further (the beta nightmares don't help your sleep either.) Plus, caffeine has no long-term positive correlation with Stage IV Colorectal Cancer, but chronic use of beta blockers does unfortunately.

Now it sound like the Coreg is working great for you right now, so don't get me wrong because I'm mostly playing devils advocate, but maybe stims/caffeine should at least get a more fair shake without all this fear-based discriminatory bias I'm hearing here. There are 2 sides to every coin, and an honest doc or researcher will not fail to highlight them both. ;)
 
DR.D said:
Well that actually sounds pretty good, Mike. It's all good so long as you get a happy ending.

My point is that caffeine gets a bad rap more times than not, so it seems people are generally scared of it without reason. That kind of irrational fear inevitably leads folks into making poor health choices, even when they have the best of intentions.
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I agree and I hate that it gets a bad rap as well as I think it is very beneficial. Unfortunately our friend here was taking dosages outside the range of benefit haha. In really high doses of things a lot of compounds exhibit different receptor affinities, case in point dopamine given in the ED exhibits dopaminergic, alphanergic, or betanergic affinities whether it is given at a rate of 5, 10, or 15 so mega dosing (as you know) is of course unwise.

But the benefits of caffeine are definitely proven, it has a UV protectant effect they think as people who consume caffeine have a very significantly decreased chance of skin cancer. I write this while sipping my cup of coffee ;).

And how the heck are you doing Dr.D?!
 
Athletix said:
I agree and I hate that it gets a bad rap as well as I think it is very beneficial. Unfortunately our friend here was taking dosages outside the range of benefit haha. In really high doses of things a lot of compounds exhibit different receptor affinities, case in point dopamine given in the ED exhibits dopaminergic, alphanergic, or betanergic affinities whether it is given at a rate of 5, 10, or 15 so mega dosing (as you know) is of course unwise.

But the benefits of caffeine are definitely proven, it has a UV protectant effect they think as people who consume caffeine have a very significantly decreased chance of skin cancer. I write this while sipping my cup of coffee ;).

And how the heck are you doing Dr.D?!
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Hey, I'm pretty good. Just trying to alleviate some of Whack's worry without starting a fight with anyone, lol. And I agree with you completely that dose is the prime consideration, so timing and moderation are indeed the keys. Caffeine can be an extremely versatile asset in one's regimen.

Get a hold of me sometime so we can catch up on stuff!
 
So I dropped caffeine. Resting HR dropped. Cardiologist says I'm not tachycardic and that it's stimulant related.
 
Yo CB!

I read 60-100 is "acceptable/normal"

Is 80-85 still considered "healthy"!?!?

The reason Im asking is b/c I recall reading somewhere that 72 is the high end or HEALTHY

criticalbench said:
Job well done, good to hear!!!
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Whacked said:
Yo CB!

I read 60-100 is "acceptable/normal"

Is 80-85 still considered "healthy"!?!?

The reason Im asking is b/c I recall reading somewhere that 72 is the high end or HEALTHY
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Everyones body is different, I don't feel comfortable answering that question. My physician with my body muscle mass, did not feel comfortable with a resting HR of high 80s.

Mike
 
Thanks Mike

criticalbench said:
Everyones body is different, I don't feel comfortable answering that question. My physician with my body muscle mass, did not feel comfortable with a resting HR of high 80s.

Mike
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