Tachycardia linked to Chronic Stim use

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Clemenza View Post

    Yes sir
    Thought so!
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    I'm worried about the chronicity of use and its cumulative effects. Im prolly screwed
    You're not "screwed" so don't freak out about it but it is definitely good to start tapering down now. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist and definitely causes upregulation of adenosine receptors leading to the need for more and more caffeine to have the same effect, this is probably why you may feel terrible if you don't get a similar amount that you are used to getting on a daily basis on any particular day. One good thing here is adenosine receptors tend to up and down regulate fairly quickly so if you can start tapering your dosage every 3 days you should start feeling better. I would say taper by about 10-15% every 3 days until you are within a reasonable range. This process will help with the withdrawals.

    As for the chronic effects on the heart, this can become an issue long term if you don't get it under control. The problem here is caffeine makes your heart work harder than it needs to. By increasing heart rate and blood pressure your heart can thicken, decreasing the atrial and ventricular volumes and lose its elasticity leading to further complications (called ventricular hypertrophy).

    Bottom line, start decreasing now so you don't have to worry later!
    Gain Strength. Add Lean Mass. Recover Faster. : ERGONINE
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Athletix View Post

    You're not "screwed" so don't freak out about it but it is definitely good to start tapering down now. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist and definitely causes upregulation of adenosine receptors leading to the need for more and more caffeine to have the same effect, this is probably why you may feel terrible if you don't get a similar amount that you are used to getting on a daily basis on any particular day. One good thing here is adenosine receptors tend to up and down regulate fairly quickly so if you can start tapering your dosage every 3 days you should start feeling better. I would say taper by about 10-15% every 3 days until you are within a reasonable range. This process will help with the withdrawals.

    As for the chronic effects on the heart, this can become an issue long term if you don't get it under control. The problem here is caffeine makes your heart work harder than it needs to. By increasing heart rate and blood pressure your heart can thicken, decreasing the atrial and ventricular volumes and lose its elasticity leading to further complications (called ventricular hypertrophy).

    Bottom line, start decreasing now so you don't have to worry later!
    Well said and one of the reasons i am on a beta blocker. I nor my cardiologist was comfortable with my heart rate in the upper 80s, with coreg its low 60s.

    Mike
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative

  4. Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    Well said and one of the reasons i am on a beta blocker. I nor my cardiologist was comfortable with my heart rate in the upper 80s, with coreg its low 60s.

    Mike
    Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
    Gain Strength. Add Lean Mass. Recover Faster. : ERGONINE

  5. Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    How the hell did you no u had afib without an ecg, and even better, you managed to self cardiovert yourself. You sir are a freakin genius!

    I think you experienced something the general public likes to call palpitations. Afib is dangerous and deadly from coagulation and clots.
    Your arguing with someone who made a post like 3 years ago lol
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Athletix View Post
    Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
    If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. (j/k Mike)

    Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post

    If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. (j/k Mike)

    Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?
    No, we are talking tachycardia related to left ventricular hypertrophy as a result of undiagnosed sleep apnea.

    Left ventricular function to date has been restored and size has reduced back to normal with coreg and my ace inhibitor.

    I take 12.5mg twice a day and love it. I suffer no side effects what so ever, my blood sugar remains stable, my libido is fine as is my energy levels. I gain normal weight in the offseason and easily diet down to single digit bodyfat levels for shows.

    Mike
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative

  8. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post

    If he's on 12.5, I'd guess he'll also be needing an anti-depressant soon, and his girlfriend is keeping her batteries well charged these days. (j/k Mike)

    Seriously though, his PR was in the upper 80s, and his doc put him on a non-select beta? I'm not dissing the doc (or your concurrence with that decision) but that is highly marginal IMO, unless there's something else in his medical history I'm not aware of. Just like Whacked, we're talking about a mildly elevated PR (NMT 90.) We aren't talking about hypertension or malignant tachycardia, right?
    Coreg was chosen due to its positive inotropic effect.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Athletix View Post

    Definitely a good move there and a good drug. I am assuming you are probably on like 6.25mg twice daily if I had to guess. Maybe 12.5.
    Sorry guys my fone doesnt let me multi quote people!

    6.25 didnt do anything. 12.5 twice a day has been great. Coreg makes me feel 100x better all around. I feel that coreg actually makes me feel more energetic.
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative

  10. I take 50mg twice a day .....and yes its "doctor prescribed". Despite the increases in dosage, it doesn't seem to lower me below 80's. he/we just kept increasing it since we figured eventually i could get to 60's or so. Never happened. I need to see where I am at when I'm not using anything except the androgel. I might be jacking up my heart rate due to using some PH and AAS lately that I hadn't used in like 7 years....

  11. Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    No, we are talking tachycardia related to left ventricular hypertrophy as a result of undiagnosed sleep apnea.

    Left ventricular function to date has been restored and size has reduced back to normal with coreg and my ace inhibitor.

    I take 12.5mg twice a day and love it. I suffer no side effects what so ever, my blood sugar remains stable, my libido is fine as is my energy levels. I gain normal weight in the offseason and easily diet down to single digit bodyfat levels for shows.

    Mike
    Well that actually sounds pretty good, Mike. It's all good so long as you get a happy ending.

    My point is that caffeine gets a bad rap more times than not, so it seems people are generally scared of it without reason. That kind of irrational fear inevitably leads folks into making poor health choices, even when they have the best of intentions.

    For example, chronic caffeine intake is shown to decrease circulating catecholamines, thus preventing diet-induced insulin resistance and hypertension. That's the exact benefit that you say your Coreg provides, so it seems you've just exchanged one for another. But which would do you better? First of all, caffeine is natural with a very long track record, unlike carvedilol which may be the next class-action drug withdrawn from the market for all anybody knows. Also, caffeine increases your respiratory function to promote reduction of apnea, but carvedilol tends to worsen lung congestion and possibly complicate breathing further (the beta nightmares don't help your sleep either.) Plus, caffeine has no long-term positive correlation with Stage IV Colorectal Cancer, but chronic use of beta blockers does unfortunately.

    Now it sound like the Coreg is working great for you right now, so don't get me wrong because I'm mostly playing devils advocate, but maybe stims/caffeine should at least get a more fair shake without all this fear-based discriminatory bias I'm hearing here. There are 2 sides to every coin, and an honest doc or researcher will not fail to highlight them both.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Well that actually sounds pretty good, Mike. It's all good so long as you get a happy ending.

    My point is that caffeine gets a bad rap more times than not, so it seems people are generally scared of it without reason. That kind of irrational fear inevitably leads folks into making poor health choices, even when they have the best of intentions.
    I agree and I hate that it gets a bad rap as well as I think it is very beneficial. Unfortunately our friend here was taking dosages outside the range of benefit haha. In really high doses of things a lot of compounds exhibit different receptor affinities, case in point dopamine given in the ED exhibits dopaminergic, alphanergic, or betanergic affinities whether it is given at a rate of 5, 10, or 15 so mega dosing (as you know) is of course unwise.

    But the benefits of caffeine are definitely proven, it has a UV protectant effect they think as people who consume caffeine have a very significantly decreased chance of skin cancer. I write this while sipping my cup of coffee .

    And how the heck are you doing Dr.D?!
    Gain Strength. Add Lean Mass. Recover Faster. : ERGONINE

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Athletix View Post
    I agree and I hate that it gets a bad rap as well as I think it is very beneficial. Unfortunately our friend here was taking dosages outside the range of benefit haha. In really high doses of things a lot of compounds exhibit different receptor affinities, case in point dopamine given in the ED exhibits dopaminergic, alphanergic, or betanergic affinities whether it is given at a rate of 5, 10, or 15 so mega dosing (as you know) is of course unwise.

    But the benefits of caffeine are definitely proven, it has a UV protectant effect they think as people who consume caffeine have a very significantly decreased chance of skin cancer. I write this while sipping my cup of coffee .

    And how the heck are you doing Dr.D?!
    Hey, I'm pretty good. Just trying to alleviate some of Whack's worry without starting a fight with anyone, lol. And I agree with you completely that dose is the prime consideration, so timing and moderation are indeed the keys. Caffeine can be an extremely versatile asset in one's regimen.

    Get a hold of me sometime so we can catch up on stuff!

  14. So I dropped caffeine. Resting HR dropped. Cardiologist says I'm not tachycardic and that it's stimulant related.
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by Sean1332 View Post
    So I dropped caffeine. Resting HR dropped. Cardiologist says I'm not tachycardic and that it's stimulant related.
    Job well done, good to hear!!!
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative

  16. Yo CB!

    I read 60-100 is "acceptable/normal"

    Is 80-85 still considered "healthy"!?!?

    The reason Im asking is b/c I recall reading somewhere that 72 is the high end or HEALTHY

    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    Job well done, good to hear!!!
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Yo CB!

    I read 60-100 is "acceptable/normal"

    Is 80-85 still considered "healthy"!?!?

    The reason Im asking is b/c I recall reading somewhere that 72 is the high end or HEALTHY
    Everyones body is different, I don't feel comfortable answering that question. My physician with my body muscle mass, did not feel comfortable with a resting HR of high 80s.

    Mike
    Hi-Tech Pharmaceuticals Representative

  18. Thanks Mike

    Quote Originally Posted by criticalbench View Post
    Everyones body is different, I don't feel comfortable answering that question. My physician with my body muscle mass, did not feel comfortable with a resting HR of high 80s.

    Mike
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge. Fools despise wisdom & instruction"
    Proverbs 1:7
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