poison in 3... 2...
Based on some new studies or something. Can someone post these?
Pretty much everyone in the world has dismissed this is as complete , and if anything toxic.
Im open to new ideas, and apparently there are some new developments on this ingredient.
So lets hear it!
iForce Nutrition Sponsored Athlete
poison in 3... 2...
iForce Nutrition Sponsored Athlete
BMOV is an ingredient that has gained popularity. Any studies behind it? That I don't know.
Hey, whoa, did someone see me say anything about vanadium? I'll sit back on this one...though I do find iForce posting this to be suspect. I mean hey, I could go post an identical thread on agmantine, but I don't. seriously, though, I'm interested to learn about vanadium, let's hear it!
If you guys want to be in on an indepth discussion on GDA's and vanadyl more specificly... talk to Tipsta at md ( hope it's ok to say that) He is the GDA king. The Glucose Disposal Agents thread is GIANT. There are as right now, 1177 posts on this topic! I've been using chromium polynicotinate and vanadyl sulfate for three years now!
How about you do us a solid and 1) link to the thread here, and 2) cut a paste the pertinent points, so we can have our ownGDA thread?
Oh, and 3) don't leave us hanging like that. You been using both for 3 years, AND....???
Sweet! I'm stuck browsing my phone er, working, for the next 6 hours, I need reading material.
I use Vanadium Sulfate, I have used the chromium with it too. I take it when I am off of Glycobol. I don't remember where I looked it up but found a study a while back and from looking at Tipstas thread that it doesn't require carbs to activate the glut4 reaction in the muscle cells. I know it works well with carbs but if just simple carbs it m,ay send you hypo with the added insulin rush. Mixed carbs work really well so as not to have any crash. I will take 10-20 mg of Optimum Nutritions VS-10 depending on how many carbs with the meal, 0-50 grams 10mg, 50-100 grams, 20mg.
Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
200 mcg Chromium POLYNICOTINATE, 10 mgs Vanadyl Sulfate......Meal 1,2,4 and 6.
Glutamine ON EMPTY STOMACH 1/2 hour before meals. ( 7 Grams prior to training and at bedtime)
Originally Posted by ****
There are plenty but I don't feel they are nessecary for trained athletes.
So putting more nutrients into the muscle than would be humanly possible without GDA'S is not beneficial to the trained athlete?
Maximizing nutrient uptake while minimizing insulin threshold to consistantly enter the muscle cell and shun the fat cell is not beneficial to the trained athlete?
WOW!!! Thats all I can say!!!
Have you ever done any blood glucose tests with any GDA'S. I have. 5 tests per meal. With and without my GDA program. I have glucose measurements as high as 210 1/2 hour after meal without GDA'S. I have never seen a reading higher than 160 with them! I believe in self experimentation. The proof is in the pudding and my glucometer is the pudding. While all you guys keep posting studies I'm doing my own tests on my personal response to foods which is what you guys should be doing. In fact I believe any bodybuilder that doesnt use a glucose meter is not worth discussing this topic with which is why I no longer desire to .
Also Picolinate is TOXIC and not on the GRAS list where polynicotinate is not toxic and IS on the GRAS list and has MUCH more availability to the body
Here's how I see it. Insulin is the DEATH hormone and I think we can all agree on that. It has the ability to cause inflamation to almost every cell in the human body. It can induce disease and sickness. By damaging cells it will SHORTEN your lifespan. There are many who believe that a restricted caloric diet will increase ones lifespan. It is because of the fact that insulin is supressed at a higher level throughout ones life. We know that insulin is needed as the storage hormone but we also know that insulin ONLY enters the fat cell at a high enough threshold and will ONLY enter the muscle cell if the threshold is low enough. Taking all of this into consideration it is obvious that in order to keep insulin at a minimum we must keep carbs at a minimum. AGREED? However keeping carbs at a minimum is the one sure way to STOP any and all progress not to mention constant depletion. This is why I'm so passionate about CERTAIN GDA's or insulin mimickers as some say. Specifically niacin bound chromium and the sulfate form of vanadium. Chromium has the ability to make the insulin your body releases much more effective which in return allows the body to release less and remove the same amount of blood sugar or more at a much lower threshold. Vanadyl sulfate has an amazing ability to remove blood sugar on its own without any insulin present. Now the body needs even less insulin to do the same exact job at a much more efficient rate also doing all this at a much lower insulin threshold. I use the lowest amounts recomended per meal and at 4 a day. I use 200 mcg Chromium polynicotinate and 10 mgs Vanadyl sulfate at meal 1,2,4 and 6. I take them anywhere from first bite to last bite. I find that they are so effective that if taken PRIOR to a meal they actually inhibit insulin release to the point where carb storage is actually hindered. Obviously they are most effective with high GI foods due to the fact they cause insulin to release at a higher threshold thus causing fat storage. As I've said before I've also done numerous blood tests with and without using every GI food possible and have lower readings with them, which is ALL the proof I need to know I am lowering my insulin threshold. Besides the fact I'm able to exceed the glycogen levels in my muscle far beyond those who use anabolics even. That alone was the proof before I went out and started pricking my finger 30 times a day. NO bull****! 5 per meal and 6 meals a day. Did this for over 2 weeks!!!
Chom and vanadyl are the king of the hill when it comes to GDA's. PERIOD!!! Besides, I really dont know of any others besides r-ala and for one I have ZERO experience with it and two have absolutely no need for it because of the effectiveness of the two. Yes, I eat the exact same foods every day! I follow a wet /dry carb every other meal protocol as well as a high GI low GI every other meal protocol. Strictly speaking carbs, meal 1 oats, 2 white potato, 3 brown rice, 4 white potato, 5 brown rice/thick undercooked pasta/oats, 6 white potato. Also as I've mentioned elsewhere, I also calculate sodium and potassium. Intracellular fluid is made up of 10 parts potassium and one part sodium. Extracellular fluid is made up of 28 parts sodium 1 part potassium. The closer your potassium to sodium ratio gets towards 10 to 1 the more fluid is directed into the muscle. White potatos make up half of my carbohydrate intake because of the fact that each 50 gram of carb serving has 1221 mgs of potassium. Potassium is ONLY absobable in liquid form or food source. Potassium supps are useles in pill form and besides they are usually in 99mg servings. 99 mgs couldnt feed a cavity. The reason I mention all of this is without my GDA's I could never eat as much HIGH GI white potatos without them. In fact I've cut out my GDA'S numerous times and by meal 4 I start getting very watery from the insulin spikes. GDA'S, for me at least, have drug like effects when it comes to keeping me drier and harder which brings us right back to the fact that if I'm staying drier and harder with such large amounts of high GI foods the insulin has GOT TO BE at a lower threshold. The problem is most never match the diet with the supps. Thats the most important thing. They are also GREAT for those times we binge on foods NOT on our diet. 5 mins before you eat take 400 mcg chrom 20 mgs vanadyl and I GUARANTEE less insulin will be available to store any excess fat circulating in the body due to the low insulin threshold.
OMG>>>>>Anti aging??? YES!!!!!!! Now you get it!!!!! It has been proven scientifically, which I know you guys love,...LOL.... that insulin supression is the #1 way to prevent aging. Not to mention diabetes, hypoglycemia, cell damage due to inflamation. This has got to be the one fact we ALL agree on. INSULIN = DEATH!!!
First of all those who know duchaines history know that yes, he was a drug guru but was also one of the pioneering geniuses behind nutritional intake and supplement use as well as timing. In fact Dan is SOLELY resposible for the production of ION EXCHANGE whey protein as well as VANADYL SULFATE. I use mostly all of his nutritional #'s. Im sure you see glucometer ads all day on TV. I like Bayer products. 10 test disc, self enclosed and extremely accurate. They just came out with a 24 hour monitor that is reading blood sugar at a constant rate sending the results to a base. They are prescription only at this point but I'm sure wont be for long. THATS THE TICKET THERE! Minute by minute monitoring.
Two more GDA tips, Take at bed on empty stomach and it will do two things one is lower blood sugar to maximize lipid usage during sleep and two lower blood sugar to the point where it knocks you on your ass since it is removing blood sugar from a stable resting point for a GREAT nite sleep. The second is take it UPON RISING EMPTY stomach prior to AM cardio to drop blood sugar to the point where you again maximize lipid usage during the cardio session. Remember one thing, the liver will ALWAYS replenish blood sugar back to its normal levels given enough time unlike prescription GDA'S that dispose of glycogen as well as shut down liver glucose output. So the window of opportunity becomes limited with otc GDA's
I just realized something. For those who dont know how a glucose meter could help. Its very simple. The higher the blood sugar rises following a meal, the more insulin is released in response. The highest I like to see my sugar rise is about 160. Once you go beyond that the insulin surge becomes greater than desired. This is why Im so passionate about GDA'S. Whether its the Vanadyl removing the blood sugar BEFORE the insulin is signaled or the Chrom helping the insulin work better. Blood sugar NEVER reaches the the level it would normally reach without GDA'S.
Bodyopus is GREAT. Not for its actual content, which is all about ketogenic dieting, but it will educate the **** out of you when it comes to glycogen depletion as well as loading. Not just loading to compete but what I always knew, but never read, until bodyopus is that until the muscle is in a SUPER SATURATED state a TRUE DRUG LIKE ANABOLIC reaction does not take place! Duchaines ability to saturate the muscle far beyond what is normally possible is what really excited me. Not just with GDA's but the explanation that there are several things required to MAXIMIZE glycogen storage, WATER, SODIUM, MINERALS and AMINO ACIDS. I found the book to be VERY repetitive but it ended up being a very important link that I added to my chain. The one thing NEVER covered though is how to and how much and when to take GDA'S. That I learned from the schoolcrafts who as most know. PEGGY SCHOOLCRAFT ex IFBB pro who went Pro through the natural ranks was prepped personally by DAN. Whats really funny is that I think Duchaine was more beneficial to the drug free competitor than the drug using ones. After reading Body Opus you will too.
GDA'S Are MOST beneficial to those with blood sugar issues, whether its high or low blood sugar. I have seen people lower or completely go off insulin with GDA'S. For those with diabetic conditions its a no brainer how it helps. For those who have low blood sugar seem to think this will only add to the problem as I at first did. When I was first introduced to them I thought , sure, thats all I need is to take something thats gonna put me in a hypoglycemic coma. When It was explained HOW they worked I gave it a shot and can count on both hands how many times I had a hypoglycemic issue to this day. Hypoglycemia is an EXCESS amount of insulin which in return takes your blood sugar LOWER than originally prior to eating. GDA'S, especially chromium, work by ASSISTING your insulin do a more efficient job thus allowing the body to do the same job with LESS insulin. The Vanadyl will begin to remove glycogen on its own even before the pancreas is signaled to release insulin so again even less will be needed. This is why it is AWESOME for hypoglycemia in minimum doses. HOWEVER, whether you do or dont have blood sugar issues in LARGE doses it WILL create a HYPOGLYCEMIC condition. PERIOD!!! I've actually had ketones on my breath numerous times using about 315 carbs a day. My training is also VERY extreme but it was no doubt the HIGH amounts of GDA'S
Quick tip. Pure Vanadyl Sulfate is bluish green in color. Since mislabeling is such a big issue today with all these supp companies I thought this was important to bring up. I have no clinical tests on any brands but just from the cosmetics of some companies products, there are some poor Vanadyl products on the market. I NEVER EVER use anything but Vitamin World Vanadyl. Cosmetically they are EXTREMELY bluish green speckled where others, and I'm not saying it's bad, but Ultimate Nutrition is virtually pure white. Also Vitamin World is coated. Back in the day Sportpharma made a PH coated product. Even Bodyfx2 commented once they were IMPRESSIVE. They were PURE blue in color.
Also remember NEVER EVER use Chromium PICOLINATE. For one it's useless but more important it is TOXIC and not on the GRAS list. Niacin bound Chromium is the ONLY chrom to use. Chromium POLYNICOTINATE is NOT TOXIC and is on the GRAS list.
more on the way...
Lol, wow, serious passion going on there!
Great read, thanks for posting. Keep it coming, if you feel like it.
And shoot me or someone else the link to the thread and we'll post it up for you.
The science is that you are now LOWERING the insulin threshold using the same amount of carbs without having to lower the GLYCEMIC LOAD.
To all those who DOUBT. Try this. Replace all your carb sources with just white potato. I guarantee by mid day you will start to become watery and by night, if you are consuming an adequate amount of carbs, you will be VERY SOFT!!!
It will take several days to get that water off you but once you feel you have, do the same thing using 200 mcg CHROM (POLYNICOTINATE) and 10 mgs Vanadyl at first bite and I'll guarantee the dryness you keep will BLOW you away!!!
AGREED! Remember something. Chromium is just a mineral which as you know vitamins and minerals are in ALL food products. This cinnamon thing is SO OLD to me just like BREWERS YEAST!!!! If it didnt taste so rancid, it would be pushed as cinnamon is. BREWERS YEAST is an AMAZING GDA. I remember back in the 80's we were all putting BREWERS YEAST AND CINNAMON on all our carbs and 20 yrs ago we knew that the chrom was high in these foods. This to me is OLD HACK!!! Certain foods are extremelly effective because of their nutrient content. Vitamins and minerals are nutrients that feed our body to allow PROPER metabolic reactions to take place. If you are not aware of this fact ALL HIGH GI foods have VERY low to NO levels of all the minerals that allow the bodies insulin to function properly...MAINLY CHROMIUM. All low GI carbs have LARGE amounts. Any FOOD product that has an affect on a metabolic reaction has certain vitamins and minerals allowing it to do that. Its that simple!!! Its the nutrient content causing this to happen. Now if you can tell me something science hasnt discovered that helps the body utilize its insulin properly OTHER than certain MINERALS I'm listening.
EXACTLY!!!!! Ever heard the term SPILL OVER?? Thats exactly what spill over is. Insulin has attempted to enter the FAT cell with a GLYCOGEN LOAD. Most guys think spillover is an EXCESS amount of carbs where in fact its TOO high GLYCEMIC LOAD. Ask any experienced competitor, After day 1 of carb loading, we go from HIGH GI TO LOW GI to prevent spillover.
One other thing thats great for lowering insulin threshold, and I'm sure I'll spend the next 2 weeks argueing this fact, is FIBER. IMO I suggest 7 to 10 grams psyllium husk POWDER with each high GI carb meal. Ive seen a great advantage with glucose control using this method personally.
I get the feeling you guys believe from my posts that these gda's or any supplement is gonna add muscle. THATS IMPOSSIBLE!!! Your nutritional program is what will do that. If you dont exceed the calories you have used in a 24 hr period then there is NO POSSIBLE way you will make ANY gains. These or any supps will only INCREASE your diets current ability to build muscle. If your diet cant currently do this then no supplement in the world will help!
Heres something I learned and practice from DAN DUCHAINE, A TRUE anabolic reaction can not take place unless the muscle is in a SUPER saturated state. Not just a saturated, but SUPER saturated and that where the advantage of these supps come into play
Guys you cant widdle a toothepick. You need a whole tree trunk. If your physique is toothepick, I suggest forgetting this whole dieting thing for a few YEARS
Guys remember one thing. All this talk of glucose disposal and insulin suppression and threshold stuff combined with glucose monitoring via a glucometer is GREAT for trying to drop fat but with attempting to ADD muscle it will SLOW your process! Insulin is needed in high volume during times of anabolism.
Thats why these supps are used. They SUPPRESS insulin to assure low thresholds guaranteeing the entering of the muscle cell. Thats also why when trying to build muscle they can hinder the situation as I've stated before.
Again I find it very surprising that the most basic stuff becomes so confusing to most. Insulin enters the fat cell at a HIGH threshold and enters the muscle cell at a lower threshold. If you doubt that then the whole world is wrong hence the Glycemic Index is wrong as well.
Listen to Chuck Rudolph of Scivation on superhuman radio. He did an AWESOME show on insulin control via glucose monitoring.
My experience has been that with the use of gda's I'm able to take in more carbs than before with out getting "watery" (spill over...) leading to a harder more vascular look confirming in my mind the truth of super glycogen compensation. Try his potocol, I can tell the difference every single time between taking them and not taking them after a high glycemic meal.
Thanks Guys, glad to know you all appreciate!
good stuff... im reading now theres a lot to go through lol
oh and no this has nothing to do with iForce. Im looking for an excuse to try v-sulfate haha
iForce Nutrition Sponsored Athlete
This doesnt have anything to Do with ur upcoming product Humalin does it?