Berberine and Atherosclerosis - should we be worried?

[OnTheRoadTo]

The main component of most "nutrient partitioners"

Berberine promotes the development of atherosclero... [Cell Res. 2009] - PubMed result

 

[dsade]

Murine studies usually are not applicable to humans.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

That's nice and all, but you're basically talking about increased uptake of LDL into foam cells. Growth of foam cells increases risk of arthero sclerosis. We use these substances to drive nutrients into cells, why would you dismiss this study and not the ones that help you sell product?

 

[dsade]

That's nice and all, but you're basically talking about increased uptake of LDL into foam cells. Growth of foam cells increases risk of arthero sclerosis. We use these substances to drive nutrients into cells, why would you dismiss this study and not the ones that help you sell product?

Back off, champ...I don't sell a berberine product.

Mice have different metabolic systems than humans do. In MOST functional studies, mouse models are not translatable into humans.

Now relax, ****.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Now, to be fair, if you'd suggested that apolipoprotein E knockout mice produce so much LDL that the feedback loop is essentially broken (normally berberine may LOWER circulating LDL levels through this activity and no net foam cell mass increase is observed over time as the cholesterol level limits deposition on arteries), then we'd at least have a hypothesis as to why this particular study is not likely to apply to human users.

 

[dsade]

Now, to be fair, if you'd suggested that apolipoprotein E knockout mice produce so much LDL that the feedback loop is essentially broken (normally berberine may LOWER circulating LDL levels through this activity and no net foam cell mass increase is observed over time as the cholesterol level limits deposition on arteries), then we'd at least have a hypothesis as to why this particular study is not likely to apply to human users.

Unless/until it is observed in humans, or at the very least rats, then it's nothing but baseless speculation...which was my original point.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Back off, champ...I don't sell a berberine product.

Mice have different metabolic systems than humans do. In MOST functional studies, mouse models are not translatable into humans.

Now relax, ****.

My apologies...I mentally had you associated with slin-sane, but that is a banaba product. I think, however, we can both agree that the supplement industry at large loves them some mouse studies.

Mouse models have their place in the science - you can pull a lot of inferences from them with some accuracy as long as you're accounting for some of the differences (A good example being the high level of carcinogenicity of Tamoxifen in mice, but a comparatively low effect in humans as explained by the some 40x increase in glucorinadition of the metabolites in the liver.)


I simply was upset to have what are at least legitimate concerns brushed aside - a discussion of the science is at least warranted where heart attacks are concerned.

 

[dsade]

My apologies...I mentally had you associated with slin-sane, but that is a banaba product. I think, however, we can both agree that the supplement industry at large loves them some mouse studies.

Mouse models have their place in the science - you can pull a lot of inferences from them with some accuracy as long as you're accounting for some of the differences (A good example being the high level of carcinogenicity of Tamoxifen in mice, but a comparatively low effect in humans as explained by the some 40x increase in glucorinadition of the metabolites in the liver.)


I simply was upset to have what are at least legitimate concerns brushed aside - a discussion of the science is at least warranted where heart attacks are concerned.

Mice have completely different systems than humans, and even rats. If I find myself getting excited about an ingredient, then find it to have been in mice, I usually file it WAY back as low priority until more evidence becomes available.

Too bad, too...as brown fat and various isoforms of uncoupling protein (not to mention beta-3 receptors) would be fantastic to manipulate...if we were all named Mickey.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

There's always clenviscerate + DNP

 

[dsade]

There's always clenviscerate + DNP

It's been a very long time since I have touched DNP...I can't even begin to imagine that combo.

I'd have no wardrobe left unstained with yellow sweat.

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

Real quick, this one suggests that we're OK:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19699071
(Endothelial health would be compromised if atherosclerosis was occurring)

Upregulates LDLR (in humans, I believe, the mechanism of concern):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19800225

Other Articles of interest:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19160773
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18710638

 

[SamBoz19]

It's been a very long time since I have touched DNP...I can't even begin to imagine that combo.

I'd have no wardrobe left unstained with yellow sweat.

I would opt for clenviscerate (Eviscerate with 17-B Triol does wonders as well) with good old DCP...forget the DNP. I would rather not feel like I am being baked like a cake inside out. LOL.

Cheers!:cheers: