Citrulline Malate- too good to be true?
- 03-09-2010, 10:29 PM
Citrulline Malate- too good to be true?
Long time lurker. Don't really post a lot- but I feel as if I should post this.
I have been working out for a while now. My left shoulder joint always becomes sore after a while.... ess. on my chest and shoulder days. I stretch it as good as I can, but there is always this sharp pain that comes after I lift heavy weights for a while which then limits me.
After reading several posts, I decided to grab myself a bag of citrulline malate for endurance (working on a diet). The brand I bought is Supplement Direct. One scoop = 3 grams. I added this tonight to my normal pre-wo stack (2 scoops jacked, 1 scoop BCAA's). I must say, the workout was amazing. My shoulder pain almost went completely away, I had pretty much ZERO lactic acid build up and could pump until my muscles gave out. Something I haven't been able to do in a while due to my left shoulder. I almost wanted to drop to my knees and cry- because the left shoulder pain almost always stops a chest workout short. Also, after my weight lifting, I did 20 mins of cardio which I never do because I'm so tired. I was amazed.
Now there were two side effects that I could notice. 1) The "zeroed" in effect was dropped and replaced with a "slow motion, take everything slow" type feeling. Also, I felt it harder to breath correctly which resulted in a mild headache. Anyone else feel this?
I've been reading more into this, and found GPLC is even better than citrulline malate. I have a few questions on this.
1) Does GPLC limit lactic acid build up like citrulline malate does? If it does, I feel as if it would also limit my pain in my left shoulder.
2) Is there more of a zero'ed in effect? Is it harder to breath?
Bottom line is, citrulline malate is cheap. I would give it a shot!
- 03-10-2010, 12:56 AM
You sure they didn't send you agmantine sulfate?
Anyway, citrulline is great stuff. It has effects that gplc doesn't have, and vice versa, so they aren't interchangable. Regardless, I have no idea why citrulline would help your shoulder pain, unless it was just the increased bloodflow to the area. But if you have shoulder pain, you should have a pro look at it. Barring that, try USPLabs Super Cissus, its amazing for these issues, as well as recovery from heavy workouts.
03-10-2010, 07:18 AM
thanks for the response. I actually have been reading a lot of your posts as I find them very informative!
and I'm not sure why? I need to go to the doctor but I just havent made time for it. I always read that maybe I dont stretch it well enough, but I always spend a solid 5 mins on just stretching. Ive also used any joint supplement you can think of to no avail but somehow this stuff killed the pain. Its weird
Anyway, this agmantine sulfate. Can it be mixed with citrulline and jacked? What exactly does it do
03-10-2010, 03:37 PM
Well, stretching may or may not help. Stretching wrong could exacerbate the issue, or create more of an imbalance, theoretically, or simple damage something more. If it hurts in the back of the shoulder, you'd want to stretch your pecs. Most people emphasize pecs more than such a small muscle deserves, and neglect the huge muscles of the back. Couple that with peoples posture, too much sitting hunched over, and the pecs shrink, putting stress on the shoulder joint. If you pain is elsewhere, I have no clue. Again, that's why you should see a specialist.
Agmantine looks great on paper, but in reality it didn't pan out like it seemed it should. It has something to do with lessning perceived exercise pain, but I forget the specifics. It has other effects, but most people don't get much from it. If you want more info, dinoii has some beefy posts on it here. Search user name dinoii and blueprint or agmantine.
So you've tried super cissus by usplabs? No other cissus compares, imo.
03-10-2010, 03:45 PM
In 2002 I read an article boasting agmatine as the next big thing. This was from a fitness magazine that I found tht was already a few years old.
03-10-2010, 10:36 PM
A little update on my progress. I dosed as you recommended on another thread (3g when you wake up, 3g prior to workout.) I must say, I had the most amazing workout today and nice pumps all day. I did 1 hour lifting and 1 hour treadmill. Usually its 45 mins lifting and 15 mins cardio. I couldn't believe it. I felt like I could keep going but my legs turned to noodles!
My preworkout consisted of
1 scoop Jack3d
1 scoop BCAA's
1 scoop Citrulline Malate
Does this stuff ever wear off? I HOPE NOT. If it does, should I cycle it? If not, is 3g AM and 3g prior to workout (or 3g mid day if non-workout day) suffice?
As for Cissus, Ive used it in the past, but not much recently. I will look into it. How do you recommend me dose it? I am 5'9, 185 LBS
My GF also wants to try this stuff. How do you think she should dose it? She takes 3/4 scoop jack3d and a MST Cordygen pill prior to gym so she isnt totally new to supplements. Dose same as me? let me know!
03-11-2010, 05:27 AM
Though the studies are lacking with CM I do and have enjoyed using Body Octane. After my Clout/Octane run I will be switching to Creapure/CM/Intrabolic preworkout. Yeah I know intrabolic pre?? I like the profile for being a preworkout.
03-11-2010, 02:46 PM
Citrulline is one of those rare supps that any amount is beneficial. 1gr is great, 3 even better, 3gr x 2 awesome. I would dose the 2 doses on workout days, 1 on off days. No, the effects don't really wear off, but you might take some time off every 2 months or so. I don't think there's a need to take more than 6gr a day.
I would dose 3 super cissus twice daily for 2 weeks, than evaluate. I get away with 2-3 caps a day once it kicks in.
As for your gf, have her dose 2-3gr citrulline with her jacked. She'll get the performance benefit, but won't experience the all day pump (unless she swings that way, lol).
03-11-2010, 03:10 PM
03-11-2010, 04:02 PM
03-11-2010, 05:15 PM
03-11-2010, 05:22 PM
03-11-2010, 05:30 PM
Doesn't lactic acid spur localized hormone release? Stuff like satellite cells, etc.? I could be TOTALLY off on this, but don't have time to refresh my memory!
03-11-2010, 05:46 PM
Having said that, does CM reduce lactic acid production, or help get it into the blood better.
And if it's just geiing in the blood quicker, is that good or bad?
03-11-2010, 10:57 PM
Day 3 on the malate. I took 3gr upon waking and 3 gr 1 hour prior to the gym. I mixed the pre-workout with 1 scoop jacked, 1 scoop bcaas. As I hoped, the workout was amazing. It was bi/tri day and my arms never had such a great workout. I could kick myself for not finding this earlier. I love it! I also love the all day pump on it and the recovery as well.
My gf also tried it with her 1 scoop jacked. She has been in the "Insanity workout" thing lately. She did a video 2 days ago and got to where there was 14 mins left and she had to quit. Today she did it and got to there was 3 mins left (same video) then had to quit. She is now a believer in it too! One thing she noticed, hard breathing due to heart pounding so fast. (Same thing I had first day) We are going to lower her jacked dose. I feel this is from the NO2 building up? Reason being I used to get like that when I used to take nitrix.
Poison, Ive been reading the reviews on super cissus and I ordered it! I will see how this stuff goes. I used the original cissus in the past but it was a while ago. I used to stack it with powerfull
As for feeling the effects, yes. I felt it on the first day I tried it.
Two things Ive learned. Drink a crap load of water and make sure you have your breathing down. I drink so much more when I work out on this stuff. Tomorrow is my off day so only 1scoop AM I will take.
Thanks for all the tips Poison!
03-11-2010, 11:01 PM
From what I read, CM does both. Raises NO levels AND is a lactic acid buffer meaning it does something in the Krebs cycle to eliminate lactic acid?? For me, it pretty much kills any pain that usually happens when lifting hard for so long. (The saying no pain no gain comes to mind lol- maybe CM changes this?)
03-11-2010, 11:32 PM
First off, about the heavy breathing. Citruliine should have the opposite effect. Geranamine has that effect on many people, so i'd examine that to see if its the culprit. If you didn't feel it before starting cm wule on jacked, i'd bet the cm is enabling you to push a harder pace than usual, but its being limited by the geranamine. Again, cm will NOT make your heart pound, in any way. It shod lower it slighty, if anything.
About lactic acid and cm: its a very good question. Lactic acid causes gh release and higher test levels (not localized, but systemic). That's awesome, so reducing lactic acid with cm must be bad, right? I've had the same question. I don't have an answer, but I suspect its just not that simple. Cm increases the amount of work you can do; it helps acheive what athletes work very hard to do, which is decrease ammonia and lactic acid build up; it increases creatine stores post exercise. If lactic acid stimulated hormone release was such a powerful indicator of hypertrophy and strength increase, then the fitter athletes got, the bigger the plateau they would hit, as they increased their lactic acid threshold. I suspect the hormone release from lactic acid buildup is way overstated, indeed, powerlifters generate way lower levels of lactic acid than other disciplines, but it's not hindering them.
03-11-2010, 11:54 PM
You have described the classic symptoms of a shoulder impingement. Go see an orthopoedist. And you have also described the classic symptoms of placebo effect. One dose of anything will not cause an immediate effect.
03-11-2010, 11:55 PM
There is also no way of you knowing how much lactic acid is in your muscles. Saying that the levels were changed during your workout and you felt as much is pure fantasy.
03-12-2010, 12:09 AM
03-12-2010, 12:11 AM
03-12-2010, 12:12 AM
03-12-2010, 02:32 AM
03-12-2010, 11:26 AM
03-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Citrulline malate promotes aerobic energy production in human exercising muscle.
Br J Sports Med. 2002 Aug;36(4):282-9. Bendahan D, Mattei JP, Ghattas B, Confort-Gouny S, Le Guern ME, Cozzone PJ. Centre de Résonance Magnétique Biologique et Médicale, UMR CNRS 6612, Faculté de Médecine de la Timone, 27 Boulevard Jean Moulin, 13005 Marseille, France.
To investigate the effects of citrulline malate supplementation on muscle energetics. Eighteen men complaining of fatigue but with no documented disease were included in the study. A rest-exercise (finger flexions)-recovery protocol was performed twice before, three times during, and once after 15 days of oral supplementation with 6 g/day citrulline malate. Metabolic variables measured twice before citrulline malate ingestion showed no differences, indicating good reproducibility of measurements and no learning effect from repeating the exercise protocol. Citrulline malate ingestion resulted in a significant reduction in the sensation of fatigue, a 34% increase in the rate of oxidative ATP production during exercise, and a 20% increase in the rate of phosphocreatine recovery after exercise, indicating a larger contribution of oxidative ATP synthesis to energy production. The changes in muscle metabolism produced by citrulline malate treatment indicate that citrulline malate may promote aerobic energy production......2. Reduces Lactic Acid and Ammonia
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Here is something else you need to know about Citrulline... it is an intermediate in the Urea Cycle. The Urea Cycle is a system in the liver of carrier molecules and enzymes that convert nitrogenous wastes into urea and eliminates them from the body. The production and removal of urea is essential for the elimination of ammonia and toxic nitrogen metabolites. Ammonia is extremely toxic to all cells and excessive levels may even be fatal. Even in healthy athletes, the build up of ammonia can lead to extreme fatigue and more.6 It also reduces glycogen formation, and inhibits the energy cycle. Obviously this is what every athlete wants to avoid!
Unfortunately all exercise, anaerobic and aerobic exercise produces tons of this stuff.7 Ammonia also forms when bacteria in the intestinal tract breaks down protein. The point is that the more ammonia in your blood, the poorer your athletic performance.8 Citrulline Malate comes to the rescue once again by aiding in the elimination of amino acid byproducts of protein metabolism. Researchers also purpose that Citrulline Malate may help to eliminate the burn associated with lactic acid build up as well as reduce the negative effects of ammonia and bacterial endo toxins on performance. Demonstrations also show Citrulline Malate as having a protective effect against acidosis and ammonnia poisoning.12 The metabolic actions of Citrulline Malate clearly explain the anti-fatigue properties in man and shows great promise to its uses as a performance enhancer for athletes.
Getting back to malate, it appears that it is synergistic when bonded to citrulline and this peptide may work better than supplementation of citrulline alone.10 While citrulline acts to increase NO and reduce performance inhibiting metabolic toxins, malate conditions the recycling of lactate and pyruvate, and takes part in the kreb cycle supplying instant and sustained energy.
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