Premax vs. BCAA

matthias7

matthias7

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This is bugging me.

What do you think?

Background
Premax is highly absorbable caesin fractions + antioxidants
BCAA has an impressive amount of kudos in medical studies. Makes me start thinking its something I should use regularly.
 
matthias7

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I'll angle it another way for the guys that use BCAA how much do you use?

One study concluded 0.5g / kg. The normal jargon is to think 10g BCAA = 40g whey.

What I'd like to compare cost of products. In some ways the products appear not to be dissimilar.
 
Harry Manback

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For what it's worth,

Not sure if I'm really answering your question directly, but I sip 10g bulk BCAA in water during each workout. Also considering what bcaa's are already in my morning, post-workout and pre bed protein shakes, I'm taking in a bit more than 10g's a day.
 
capnsavem

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premax + BCAAs (xtend perhaps) sounds like a good idea...
 
JN230

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casein hydrosolates are a substantialy more absorbed form of aminos than free from, yet i tink both have their application.... when things are harder to absorb, (carb free pre workjout) would be a better time for Peptopro. i figure bcaa with carbs afterworkout will negate the difference in absorption rates due to insulin spike.... but i may be wrong
 
matthias7

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^^^ good post, good point

Using both however = $$$

What I want to know now....

Primordial in their graph demonstrate Premax proteins getting preferentially absorbed over single amino acids... however were those EAA, etc... or BCAA or doesn't it make any difference?
 
matthias7

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I'm going to try both is the answer and work out the price difference per effectiveness.

BCAAs are about 1/3 cheaper than Premax (buying both from PP). However you might get away with using less of one or the other.

Its a good point that you might compensate for absorption using a high GI carb.
 
matthias7

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The other point I forget is the recovery graph of PP....

I could be wrong but I think it shows individual amino acids (bits of protein) showing far poorer recovery than Premax. Thats the key graph and thats what I'm interested in.

Were those individual amino acids EAA or BCAA? Thats a big question because BCAA is supposed to be good at muscle recovery post workout and Premax appeared to be reporting that it was alot better than anything else. Thats the thing I'm most interested in.

Speeding recovery time between workout is the key to gym-life. Its the focus of a massive amount of supplements PHs, Prime, BCAA, Premax, the whole hGH enhancers and so on. The Premax stats looked incredible.
 
matthias7

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Basically I can crystalize my question (really to PP) as thus:

How does Premax compare to BCAA for muscle recovery post workout?

Better? If so by how much?
 
capnsavem

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matthias has some valid questions here- i'll keep an eye on responses from PP reps
 
Trauma1

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Basically I can crystalize my question (really to PP) as thus:

How does Premax compare to BCAA for muscle recovery post workout?

Better? If so by how much?


The answer to your questions was mostly contained in the write-up all along my friend. I added a few things in here. :)



What are the ingredients in PreMax and how do they work?

Amino AcidsAmino Acids – Including a good source of amino acids was a no brainer because they are the building blocks of muscle.

But we didn’t just add some cheap form of whey protein as an amino acid source. We included pure hydrolyzed casein known as PeptoPro® – in which the amino acids are bound together in peptide from.

PeptoPro is hydrolyzed casein protein. Hydrolyzed (hydrolysis) simply refers to a chemical process of breakdown. Most processes of digestion are hydrolysis reactions: you’re breaking down something large into progressively smaller parts so it can ultimately be absorbed (in the intestine). So you can think of hydrolyzed as “pre-digested.” Unfortunately, classic hydrolysis of whey resulted in bitter, turbid preparations with very poor solubility. Casein, on the other hand, offered a viable solution due to its unique amino acid structure: when it is hydrolyzed with with PeptoPro’s patented enzyme process, it produces an incredibly high yield of di- and tri-peptide form amino acids.


The peptide form is the key to the superiority of PeptoPro, simply because peptides are the best absorbing form of amino acids known to man. (1) Just check out the graph below.


The di and tri-peptides from PeptroPro absorb up to 3x better than free form amino acids or longer chain proteins

You see, amino acids can exist as single amino acids, long chain proteins or as short chain peptides of 2 or 3 amino acids. When amino acids exist in short peptide form, they are water soluble. In fact, mixing PeptoPro in water will result in a completely clear solution. On the other hand, if you mix whey or soy protein in water, you get a cloudy solution because these full protein chains are not 100% water soluble.

The water solubility of peptides allows them to pass through the aqueous barrier of the intestinal walls and penetrate the brush border in order to be absorbed into the blood stream.

As you can see, the full proteins must be broken down into smaller peptides before they can pass through the intestinal walls

Now that we’ve established that PeptoPro is the fastest and most fully absorbing protein on the market, let me explain why taking PeptoPro before exercise is so important.

Taking PeptoPro before exercise causes a rapid increase in amino acid levels in the blood.(2) A recent study showed that maintaining high levels of amino acids during exercise (by consuming PeptoPro immediately 30-60 minutes beforehand) reverses muscular protein breakdown and starts to stimulate muscle protein synthesis during exercise. (4)

Yes, I said it. You can actually start building muscle during your workouts.

Plus, when amino acid levels are elevated during exercise, it actually initiates the muscle building process and increases the muscle building potential after exercise. (3)

In addition to maximizing muscle growth after exercise, supplementation with peptide based protein has been shown to promote recovery of muscle force better than regular whey or casein protein does.


Check these out:

Summaries of PeptoPro studies

PeptoPro study on Recovery and Endurance



In summary:


-The PeptoPro is a pre-digested form of amino acids (di-/tri peptides) that allow for rapid absorption into the body for use. This is possible because these peptides do not need to undergo further hydrolysis in order to be absorbed and used by the body. PeptoPro® is a protein hydrolysate derived from the casein protein fraction of cow’s milk. It consists of ~85% protein. The protein is rich in small peptides; ~60% is smaller than 500 Dalton. Molecular mapping indicates that ~7.5% is free amino acids, ~8.5% is dipeptides, and ~39% is tripeptides.

-This superior absorption factor equates to a rapid rise in serum amino acid concentrations in the blood to assist and expedite recovery/growth. This is a very important factor in the intra/post workout phase of recovery.
 
Wudog

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if you want to use BCAA's, just get Nutra Planet's bulk BCAA....cheap and does the job nicely.
 
matthias7

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Thanks Trauma:

I get the bit about Premax being absorbed X3 more than BCAA (its a free amino acid).

Recovery time however is different I think because Premax tested against free amino acids, e.g. EAA and not BCAA.

Up until Premax BCAA was considered the protein for muscle recovery.

Please could I see BCAA vs. Premax recovery charts/graphs?

Also would like iBCAA (the stuff PP sell) absorption vs. either Premax or else BCAA.
 
matthias7

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Okay this thread is slightly split across two threads:

Erics answer is here:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/107571-ibcaa-2.html

The reason
Muscle recovery time is the goal I'm targeting right now. Diet has an enormous amount to do with it. Over Christmas I had alot of everything and had fast recovery from heavy workout. I'd easily over do it (so I couldn't pick anything up) and recovery was fast.

Now I'm on high protein (200g+ per day) and low carb, low GI carb. I like the diet but recovery is much slower. Everything else is bang on, strong drive/focus/energy.

I was using Super Cissus over Christmas and used an NSAIDs briefly.
 
matthias7

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Anyone tried Bromolain? (sp?) The pineapple digestive enzyme to increase protein absorption.
 
matthias7

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Just to conclude to date. Eric suggest Premax had the edge over BCAA. However BCAA with added valine (?) was better than BCAA (did I paraphrase that correctly?). He also said running them was synergistic. It is also $$$.

I think I'll run one and then the other to compare them. Stacking could be useful "off-cycle" to hold the muscle gained in a cycle. It could also be useful in the last week of a cycle to max. the gains.

I think the answer is "try it and see".
 
qwerty33

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honestly if you get enough meals, as any bodybuilder should be going. there is no need for added bcaas. The bcaas in peptopro get into the blood much faster and a higher % of them pass through. That is exactly what one wants pre or post w.o. PreMax is a great product that is my staple pre w.o of heavy days. But peptopro is what you want if bcaas are a concern for you.
 
Jimbo15

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what did you end up going with? ever try the peptopro?
 

RAHHH

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I also sip 10g bulk IBCAA's in water during workout.
I use MAP from PP 1 scoop with 10g IBCAAS and 25g dextros + creatine for PostWO drink.
then for rest of day i use needtowhey (whey protein) and add at times add in 5-10g IBCAA's with it.

I i guess id say go with MAP or IBCAA's OR both.
 
fadi

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I read the research (first link you posted) about PeptoPro and I am surprised at the research cited.

Help me understand the research and how would it apply to bodybuilding. I am not bashing, so hopefully no one gets offended. I am simply trying to understand the research cited and how does it apply to Bodybuilding.

1. None of the research done on weight lifters from what I can tell. They all were done on endurance type sports and measured their impact on endurance and not weight lifting. The body can burn AAs for energy, so yes I can see it heping prevent muscle loss after long aerobic sessions. But what about weight lifting?

2. The research compared PeptoPro and Carbs versus Carbs alone. That doesn't give PeptoPro an advantage over any other protein type. It only tells us that consuming protein and carbs is better than consuming carbs alone. Similar research done with Whey, and Casein. The only research I saw (I may have missed it?) that compared Whey to PeptoPro ended the research by asking the participents how they felt? That is not scientific in the least. Plus, they were running not lifting weights.

3. Like I said previously, some of the research simply asked the participants how they felt. There was no science behind it. They may have recovered from running nicely. But did they retain more muscles? did they gain any?

4. There was no mention of any muscle gains, and none of the research was done on a lengthy period of time. The longest I saw was to ask the group to try again a week later. And that was also aerobic type I believe, comparing carbs only to PeptoPro and carbs to see how they felt about it.

5. Some of the research was done on an empty stomach after fasting, which is never the case with bodybuilders. Bodybuilders would have plenty of stored AAs unless they are dieting. Even then, why PeptoPro and not whey for example

How does any of this research relate to what we do? All I see is that people feel good, they feel recovered after long runs, and maybe have more energy.
How does it compare gains wise against Whey Isolate, Whey Isolate + Casein Isolate? both proven in research to increase muscle mass with the latter being superior (in some research).
 

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