IS TOO MUCH PROTEIN COUNTER PRODUCTIVE?

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    IS TOO MUCH PROTEIN COUNTER PRODUCTIVE?


    Ok let me explain what i mean

    I read online about a bodybuilder who recommended the following;

    20 gms of whey drank about 30-60min before workout

    20 gms in a intra workout drink

    followed by 20 gms included in a post workout drink.

    Timewise i guess youre consuming 60gms over 2.5 -3 hour period without a real break.

    Can the body deal with this in a way that say 80 percent at least is going to get used or is consuming this amount a waste of time?

    Also does the intra workout drink pull blood away from the muscle and divert it to the intestines who have the job of digesting the intra workout drink?

    Any thoughts please?

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    Quote Originally Posted by corsaking View Post
    Ok let me explain what i mean

    I read online about a bodybuilder who recommended the following;

    20 gms of whey drank about 30-60min before workout

    20 gms in a intra workout drink

    followed by 20 gms included in a post workout drink.

    Timewise i guess youre consuming 60gms over 2.5 -3 hour period without a real break.

    Can the body deal with this in a way that say 80 percent at least is going to get used or is consuming this amount a waste of time?

    Also does the intra workout drink pull blood away from the muscle and divert it to the intestines who have the job of digesting the intra workout drink?


    Any thoughts please?
    Too much of ANY of the macronutrients is not a good thing.

    It depends on the TYPE of protein as to its absorption rate. However, 60g of protein over that period is fine; there is no evidence to suggest that it is "a waste of time". Again, depending on the type of protein re how fast it is going to be digested.

    Remember that it will also depend upon the individual as to how much protein is actually required.

    Check out the article, Bustin' Broscience: Protein.


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    Thanks Rosie. Good article.
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    After a certain point your body no longer absorbs the extra protein and you urinate the rest of it out. I believe it is not too good for your kidneys to filtrate that much protein but hey I'm not a doctor
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    depends on what you mean by "80 percent at least is going to get used". 80% won't get used for building muscle, thats for sure. every pound of muscle has only around 160g of protein to make it up, and odds are your daily simple replacement need is in the 100g area roughly, so the excess you take in will get broken down to amino acids and then converted into glucose.
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    Sorry but I disagree. My reasoning is as follows:

    1. The main problem is insufficient protein not excess. Smeton Yea diagnosed that as a problem with my diet. Alot of nutritionists have come to this theory as a general health regime (the "sharp end of chronic fatigue").

    2. Chronic levels of excess protein can result in kidney stones. HOWEVER if you have your kidney function checked (creatinine levels) when you are off-cycle creatine: there isn't a problem. If you have sky high creatinine levels just ease off the protein.

    Primodial P are selling Premax which has highly absorbable "whey fractions" (I forget exactly what protein it is). I'm going for it 2010. PP seldom get there science wrong, i.e. make exaggerated claims. This looks exciting.

    Good luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guejsn View Post
    Too much of ANY of the macronutrients is not a good thing.

    It depends on the TYPE of protein as to its absorption rate. However, 60g of protein over that period is fine; there is no evidence to suggest that it is "a waste of time". Again, depending on the type of protein re how fast it is going to be digested.

    Remember that it will also depend upon the individual as to how much protein is actually required.

    Check out the article, Bustin' Broscience: Protein.


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    i think that's an excessive amount of protein by 10g or so - 25 pre workout, 25 post workout is fine, more than that IMO is overkill. also, remember that pro bb'ers advice about how their body absorbs protein, is also because they're on gear which allows them to absorb more - steroids increase protein synthesis, as obviously you're growing muscle faster while taking steroids. just food for thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthias7 View Post
    Sorry but I disagree. My reasoning is as follows:

    1. The main problem is insufficient protein not excess. Smeton Yea diagnosed that as a problem with my diet. Alot of nutritionists have come to this theory as a general health regime (the "sharp end of chronic fatigue").

    2. Chronic levels of excess protein can result in kidney stones. HOWEVER if you have your kidney function checked (creatinine levels) when you are off-cycle creatine: there isn't a problem. If you have sky high creatinine levels just ease off the protein.

    Primodial P are selling Premax which has highly absorbable "whey fractions" (I forget exactly what protein it is). I'm going for it 2010. PP seldom get there science wrong, i.e. make exaggerated claims. This looks exciting.

    Good luck.
    As I said: "...it will also depend upon the individual as to how much protein is actually required." For example, someone my size would have no need of that much protein in such a short period. And having 60g of protein over 2.5-3 hours may not actually be an excess, taking into account the rest of the individual's protein intake over the course of the day. If excessive protein is consumed chronically then, yes, problems can arise, due to the byproducts of protein metabolism; not to mention that consuming a lot of animal protein, can cause high stored Iron levels, which can be toxic and very dangerous for some individuals (of which I am one). It is up to each individual to individualize their needs and not follow what someone else does. Some common sense is required.

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    Basically 60g of protein powder is about 40g of neat protein.

    Generally 0.5 - 1g/lb body weight of neat protein. For me 40g is around either 2/5 or 1/5 of my intake. I forget which value is recommended in adrenal fatigue (sorry I confused it with chronic fatigue - they're very different).

    If I ate 1kg of chicken per day I'd hit the upper "normal" limit of protein for my body weight.
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    Oh I remember now. I use 2g/kg which is around 1g/lb body weight. That neat protein not amount of meat. This I'm calling "normal". I aim for 200g neat protein per day - but usually hit around 150g. Chicken is high in neat protein but is only 1/3 protein (I think) to its weight. Whey is v. high in "neat" protein.

    Many guys on here use 2g/lb of body weight. I am not sure whether this is neat protein or amount of protein based food.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmaiuri View Post
    After a certain point your body no longer absorbs the extra protein and you urinate the rest of it out. I believe it is not too good for your kidneys to filtrate that much protein but hey I'm not a doctor
    Is this true? I have read before what you pee out is the nitrogen fromthere protein but it isstill stored in.your body and if it is too much and you aren't using it, it turns to fat.

    Again I'm not 100% sure if anyone has any info on this I would be interested to read it
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    Also I was told by a trainer at a gym that the body can only digest and take in 30g of protein in one sitting and that everything else is stored as fat. Not sure of this has any merit either as most of them are idiots anyway

    Also not sure if it was 30g or another number sorry bad memory
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Also I was told by a trainer at a gym that the body can only digest and take in 30g of protein in one sitting and that everything else is stored as fat. Not sure of this has any merit either as most of them are idiots anyway

    Also not sure if it was 30g or another number sorry bad memory
    He's an idiot.

    There is a huge difference in taking in 30g of protein from whey isolate, and taking in 30g of protein by eating a 4oz piece of steak. Just digestive difference alone is huge. The steak will take more than 8 hours to digest, so you can take in a WHOLE lot more protein that way in one sitting than whey isolate, which takes under 3 hours to digest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guejsn View Post
    Too much of ANY of the macronutrients is not a good thing.

    It depends on the TYPE of protein as to its absorption rate. However, 60g of protein over that period is fine; there is no evidence to suggest that it is "a waste of time". Again, depending on the type of protein re how fast it is going to be digested.

    Remember that it will also depend upon the individual as to how much protein is actually required.

    Check out the article, Bustin' Broscience: Protein.


    ~Rosie
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    good read -thanks
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    If I remember right, didn't EasyEJL write this?
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    yeah. It was just what I put together from reading medical studies on it. Theres no simple answer of how much protein you can eat in one sitting, but there are some fairly well defined limits as to how much in amino acids from protein you can reasonably use and retain as protein per hour, based on the type of protein. Whey isolate as high as 10g/hr, casein as low as 6g/hr, BCAAs I think were as high as 12-15g/hr. But again the issue even then is that comically the BCAAs tended to show more protein oxidation - the body had a higher loss of existing protein while using them, and casein had the lowest oxidation so that in the end all 3 netted about same retained nitrogen. Comical really.

    In the end normal average person can digest and process somwhere between 200-400g of protein a day indefinitely (I saw the math somewhere on enzyme production based on size, sex, racial background, etc) without negative health consequences. But like I said, if your daily upkeep for turnover of muscle breakdown only is 100-150g/day going much over 200 is pointless (unless its a matter of convenience) as you aren't synthesizing 3/4lb of new muscle a day. In the end your body uses the excess as if it were carbs (basically) so rather than spending the $3 for an extra pound of good ground beef for an extra 160g of protein you may as well save the money and spend 20 cents on 160g of carbs from brown rice

    That said, I sometimes have days where my protein intake is over 300g, just because shakes and bars can be a convenience when travelling or being out of the house and I tend to not like having high carb shakes or bars.
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    I am a big believer in upping the protein equals upping the gains just take digestive enzymes with every meal or your room will smell like a fart factory. I am serious here it has been so bad it grosses out myself esp when i mix 400 grams protein at 300-400 carbs or more in a day.

    All I know when ever i started upping my protein to at 1.7-1.8 grams a day I started gaining more muscle mass and looking denser and harder. It made a dramatic difference than 1 gram.

    Just got done 75-80 grams of protein from eggs and whey(I do not count the protein in wheat,low fat cheese's and stuff like that)

    I am not going to argue with science, science may say the body can only digest 30 grams of protein at time time, ill let science be right and myself be big. My body digests it fine.

    here is a nice video

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=471hnXCzajI"]YouTube- Blood & Nutrition, How Your Body Works 12[/ame]

    as matthias7 said getting blood work after stopping creatine for at least two weeks to make sure everything is functioning properly and digestion is happening; although, I would not sweat it if you do not suspect a problem because most younger people in general do not have these problems. I got it because I have really good insurance and it covers these for free.

    When I am cutting body fat toward the end when the body fat seems to be stalling I may drop protein but nothing under a gram and only for a short period of time.
    Follow me on facebook, twitter and youtube, where I share information and videos to help you achieve your physique goals, John Smeton Ftness
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    A good way to measure protein intake is 1.5 grams per pound of body weight to gain muscle.
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    anything your body doesnt use gets stored as fat. very complex finding out exact amounts your body needs. and too many vit. minerals can be very toxic and show the similar symptoms as deficiancies.

    and if you want to figure out your recommended protein intake its 2.2 of every kg of your weight
    which would be about half of your body weight

    soo me being at 160 i need to atleast get 80grams of protein daily.
    thats the book talkin. now i normally take in about 100g just to be on the safe side.
    1 gram per body weight is just muscle magazines talkin. and if u do your research youll find alot of the info in the magazines wrong. with the exception of some mags.
    Last edited by Jake Fires; 01-07-2010 at 03:00 PM. Reason: mor info
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guejsn View Post
    Too much of ANY of the macronutrients is not a good thing.

    It depends on the TYPE of protein as to its absorption rate. However, 60g of protein over that period is fine; there is no evidence to suggest that it is "a waste of time". Again, depending on the type of protein re how fast it is going to be digested.

    Remember that it will also depend upon the individual as to how much protein is actually required.

    Check out the article, Bustin' Broscience: Protein.


    ~Rosie
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    Well stated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Fires View Post
    anything your body doesnt use gets stored as fat. very complex finding out exact amounts your body needs. and too many vit. minerals can be very toxic and show the similar symptoms as deficiancies.

    and if you want to figure out your recommended protein intake its 2.2 of every kg of your weight
    which would be about half of your body weight

    soo me being at 160 i need to atleast get 80grams of protein daily.
    thats the book talkin. now i normally take in about 100g just to be on the safe side.
    1 gram per body weight is just muscle magazines talkin. and if u do your research youll find alot of the info in the magazines wrong. with the exception of some mags.
    While I agree to an extent everyone is different, if you want to build muscle you take in more protein period. I am 270 lbs. I need around 350-400 grams a day. I also have increased my BCAA count. There is research now showing that 10 grams might be equal to just around 40 grams of protein.

    Regardless, experience does matter. Most will state if you want to gain muscle and strength you do really need more protein. At 160 lbs, I would think that you will not gain alot (muscle or strength) depending on your CNS demands as is.

    I also suggest increasing fiber, water and alkaline foods for maximum absorption and proper PH levels.
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    im gonna actually try to get in more protien now that im reading everyones posts , books change, and so does science. yes i am a hard gainer, even when i had a gym member ship 2 years ago at 150lbs i was benching 210lbs 4 sets 10 reps. considering my body weight thats dam good. pound for pound i have beastly strength. maybe increae my protein intake to 150g>?>?
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    Just be subtle in your increases. I will post something for you about hardgainers Hardgainers
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Is this true? I have read before what you pee out is the nitrogen fromthere protein but it isstill stored in.your body and if it is too much and you aren't using it, it turns to fat.

    Again I'm not 100% sure if anyone has any info on this I would be interested to read it

    your correct... you do not "pee" out protein, you convert excess to glucose and use it for energy or store it as fat

    protein found in urine is a medical condition and an indicator of kidney problems
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmaiuri View Post
    A good way to measure protein intake is 1.5 grams per pound of body weight to gain muscle.
    again I believe your wrong. Isnt it per kg or per lean body weight?? Not just per pound bodyweight, I think that it is just a general rule of tought but not necessarily right.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    as much as people say it is genetics I think people put too much emphasis on them and if they would get their diet in order, train hard their "genetics" would change. Just my opinion
    Follow me on facebook, twitter and youtube, where I share information and videos to help you achieve your physique goals, John Smeton Ftness
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    as much as people say it is genetics I think people put too much emphasis on them and if they would get their diet in order, train hard their "genetics" would change. Just my opinion
    Nicely stated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guejsn View Post
    Too much of ANY of the macronutrients is not a good thing.

    It depends on the TYPE of protein as to its absorption rate. However, 60g of protein over that period is fine; there is no evidence to suggest that it is "a waste of time". Again, depending on the type of protein re how fast it is going to be digested.

    Remember that it will also depend upon the individual as to how much protein is actually required.

    Check out the article, [url=http://www.appliednutriceuticals.com/pdf/bustinbro_issue_1_Protien.pdf# 1_Protien.pdf]Bustin' Broscience: Protein[/url].


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    Ive read this and it has given me doubts over the validity of the post work out drinkforthis reason.
    It would appear that drinking a whey only drink , despite whey having the fastest rate of absorbtion than any other protein, peak amino acids levels are not reached until 3 hours after ingestion.The addition of carbs to that drink may make absorbtion slower.
    So surely it would be better to consume a whey only drink at a time to ensure that peak amino acid levels are reached whilest training overlapping for a short time after training eg shower time, getting changed etc

    Carbs could be still be taken after training to replenish glycogen stores .As this peak is reached every 3 hours then if required a further whey protein drink could be taken say on return home .

    any thoughts?
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    the whey peak is in about 45-60 minutes, and lasts about 3 hours. But if you are looking for having aminos loose in bloodstream immediately postworkout then the best bet would be to take in some casein 3-4 hrs preworkout as it would still be in bloodstream, but not be in stomach
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    Quote Originally Posted by corsaking View Post
    Ive read this and it has given me doubts over the validity of the post work out drinkforthis reason.
    It would appear that drinking a whey only drink , despite whey having the fastest rate of absorbtion than any other protein, peak amino acids levels are not reached until 3 hours after ingestion.The addition of carbs to that drink may make absorbtion slower.
    So surely it would be better to consume a whey only drink at a time to ensure that peak amino acid levels are reached whilest training overlapping for a short time after training eg shower time, getting changed etc

    Carbs could be still be taken after training to replenish glycogen stores .As this peak is reached every 3 hours then if required a further whey protein drink could be taken say on return home .

    any thoughts?
    It's really up to each individual to make this decision on what they prefer to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guejsn View Post
    It's really up to each individual to make this decision on what they prefer to do.

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    yeah, cause first you have to believe in the anabolic window, and that its short for any of it to matter
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yeah, cause first you have to believe in the anabolic window, and that its short for any of it to matter
    Some reports ive read suggest the anabolic window to be 1 -2 hours.

    However if you time your preworkout drink of whey which reaches a peak of amino acids in the blood after 45 min and lasts 3 hours , so that the levels are still high once training has finished, then the anabolic window has been partially closed because the aminos are already in the blood and feeding the muscle. Only glycogen needs replacing through drinking carbs.

    If whey takes 45 mins anyway to reach a peak amino acid level , then 45 min of the anabolic window has been lost, if you were to rely solely on your post wo drink.It may be that drinking BCAAs directly after workout would have more impact on muscle growth and act faster, than waiting 45 mins for the post wo drink to have an effect.

    If you do take a preworkout drink ,a further whey drink could be taken at a time to ensure that the peak level of amino acids remain constant and then the 3 hours could be extended to 6 .During this time a meal consisting of protein , and carbs should be eaten.The protein in the meal such as chicken would eventually breadown and provide a slow release form of amino acids

    just my take on it.
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    If you believe in the anabolic window then BCAA's and/or amino acids are your logical choice before and after workouts.

    Personally, I drink a quart of organic milk a half hour post workout then eat 4-6 eggs an hour after that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yeah, cause first you have to believe in the anabolic window, and that its short for any of it to matter
    I don't think there is anything unreasonable with that window idea. My training progressed quite a bit observing that pwo time for my nutritional needs.
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    Protein consumption what I learned: a six-time Mr. Olympia's state-of-the-art guide to protein supplements
    Flex, Jan, 2004 by Dorian Yates, Brian Batcheldor


    sorry i can't post links yet, you need 50 posts or more. but just google search that article, it's interesting.
  

  
 

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