- 12-18-2009, 02:37 PM
So I have been doing a large amount of reading into steroids and ph's in order to become very knowledgable on the subject before picking and running a cycle. This site has been great so I would like to thank you all. One question I still have is in regards to backpumps and taurine. How does taurine act in order to remedy pumps? I'm looking for a more indepth answer than the pumps just go away. Thanks.
- 12-18-2009, 02:52 PM
12-18-2009, 03:07 PM
12-18-2009, 06:39 PM
According to Dr. Houser:
"BACK PUMPS" are the kidneys until proven otherwise, I am fine to suggest this kidney aggitation of sort being secondary to an increased blood volume secondary to increased Hematocrit and ion depostion. You might ask well, how the hell does this work dinoiii if you think its blood volume and the like...well a great % of your cardiac output need be filtered by the kidneys and there are a slew of smaller vessels within the kidney that are very pertinent (but I will save the anatomy lesson in this one).
Taurine in and of itself aids this scenario by potentiating increases in cell volume via effects in the ion-flux and nutrient gated transport.
BUT HOLD THE PHONE, THAT'S NOT ALL!!!
90% of bb's also have a simple deficiency of taurine to begin with. You may say, so what you're telling me is that correction of the deficiency is going to alleviate my symptoms, right?
What I will say is that deficiency of taurine contributes to elevated blood pressure in people with hypertension. And what you get when you go on a PH/PS/AAS cycle is the potential for increased blood pressure. Limited research has found that supplementation with taurine lowers blood pressure in animals and in people. This is hypothesized through a reduction in the hormone epinephrine. Because, yup - you guessed it...increased blood through the tiny blood vessels of the kidney even produces issue with the organ tissue itself.
So, I ingest a couple caps of taurine and I am fine. Well - in a placebo-oriented world ... maybe, but a couple caps has NOT corrected the deficiency I describe above.
Most people don't dose taurine appropriately to begin with, taurine in the average 70kg individual (or 154 pounds for the "metrically"-deficient Americans reading along) should be dosed at 6 GRAMS to see true efficacy. For the average 200 pound bb, this is increased to about 7 GRAMS, higher weight...likely as high as 8 or 9 to accomplish satisfaction of volume of distribution differences.
So - let's summarize the dinoiii-model of taurine "Back-Pump" alleviation shall we (in a cliff-notes version):
Pathway #1: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Taurine ingestion --> Ion Flux, Nutrient-Gated Transport (Volume Correction Factor)
Pathway #2: PH/PS/AAS --> Inc Blood Volume --> Inc BP --> Taurine ingestion --> Dec Epinephrine --> Dec BP
End Result of Both = Contribution to Dec "Back Pumps" (aka - kidney pains).
12-18-2009, 06:44 PM
12-18-2009, 08:11 PM
i dont subscribe to the kidney theory.
i think its the erectors. combination of engorgement and lactate buildup/inadequate rest.
IMO actual "kidney pain" would be more flank than low back (look up anatomically where they live, it isnt low down) with possible radiation to the groin.
back pumps for me are helped with certain postures and lying on the ground as well as stretching. besides taurine, having strong abs helps take some of the load off the erectors too.
why would rest and stretching help "renal engorgement"? i dont see how.
so yeah that's my 2 cents.
12-18-2009, 10:54 PM
Nothing to contribute except this: How does Taurine work to reduce/eliminate back pumps? Exceedingly well. I also use it for any cramping in general. Placebo or not in this case, but if I know I've worked to the point where I'm going to cramp up over night and be sore as heck in the morning (gettin' old, can't help it), I do about 10g Taurine in my drink du jour before bed or first thing in the morning. Works like a charm!!
And yes...10g. Following Dana's math for bw/g, that works best for me.
-RecoverBro Zombie Specialist and Paracord Wrangler
-Independent due to lies that hurt my family. Loyal to myself and my Bro's.
12-19-2009, 11:30 AM
Awesome thanks guys...I'm just being extra careful here because I already have regular low back pain from an old injury and would like to avoid adding to that.
12-19-2009, 02:11 PM
Good read. I've always subscribed to the theory that taurine helps the body retain potassium which ameliorates cramps/pumps and hypertension. What seems to back up this hypothesis is my observation is that since I've been taking potassium bicarbonate to alkalize my bod, I have a hard time getting pumps even when doing a high volume bicept WO. Years ago when my diet sucked and I ate way fewer veggies, I could get a ripping painful pump on most workouts.
Kidneys are definitely playing a role in this via osmotic/ionic regulation but i'm not well versed enough on that subject to really add more to the conversation.
12-19-2009, 02:52 PM
its possible the kidneys could become swollen due to ionic fluxes and osmolarity changes, and of course plasma volume increases which would indeed hurt as the capsule stretches...but again, the location and the quality of the pain coming from the kidneys is different than my "back pump" pain. of course anything is possible and it could be a combination.
12-19-2009, 04:58 PM
All I know is at 40 mg/day on havok I was plagued with back pumps. I triedntairone at 3 g pre and post workout and they didn't go away. As soon as I started pct they stopped.
12-19-2009, 06:26 PM
I tend to agree, I'm no expert, and I've only done a HDROL cycle, but the back pumps I had I just could not relate to the kidneys. The muscles in the middle part of the back would just stay hard all the time, and it felt like they were pulling on the spine, making it uncomfortable to walk or bend over. Stretching out really helped a lot, one thing that helped while at the gym for instant relief was to lay down in the sauna and let the boards heat my back up.
01-14-2010, 12:02 PM
Unfortunately, you are missing a few points about kidney pain, referred dermatomal presentation and the like.
In any event, you further suggest a "theory" of your own which includes "possible radiation to the groin" - and unfortunately - unless there is obstruction (i.e. - renal calculi) this will NOT be the presentation AT ALL. You might leave the diagnosing to those qualified rather than your e-search results in pontification.
Here's one of the most recent study groups linking steroids with renal failure from this past year's American Society Nephrology Meeting:
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01-14-2010, 09:41 PM
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