Can ATD cause gynecomastia?
- 12-07-2009, 04:14 PM
Can ATD cause gynecomastia?
I know it's an aromatase inhibitor, but there's a study that says it is also an androgen receptor antagonist. Does this mean that taking ATD will result in free testosterone converting to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme because of the androgen receptor antagonism? What about taking ATD in conjunction with saw palmetto, would that make it even worse?
I want to take it 25mg a day to offset the effects of saw palmetto.
- 12-07-2009, 04:39 PM
what are the effects of saw palmetto and why would atd be a bad combo with them? I thought all saw palmetto did was a DHT blocker.
wouldnt free testosterone not convert to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme because ATD is an aromatase enzyme inhibitor?
12-07-2009, 04:50 PM
However, I'm not sure if the androgen receptor antagonism would even occur at 25 mg a day. The study that concluded it was an androgen receptor antagonist was done on mice, giving them 15 mg of ATD, which I read someone say it translates to 200 mg for a 165 lb person.
12-07-2009, 04:56 PM
12-07-2009, 05:12 PM
I don't think the effects of saw palmetto are so extreme that they will significantly prevent you from building muscle, but I have had a decrease in libido ever since taking it. My main concern is what happens to the free testosterone when taking ATD and saw palmetto together.
The reason I want to take a low dose aromatase inhibitor is to counteract whatever effects saw palmetto is having on my hormones.
12-07-2009, 05:51 PM
i would definately take the aromatase inhibitor. I am currently on saw palmetto and 1/3 serving of 6-oxo a day right now and I'm still reaping great gains and maintaining libido and all that. However I think i will discontinue the use of saw palmetto thanks to the knowledge you have dropped on me. Libido is too important to me, and being an androgen receptor antagonist is not cool. I think im gonna stop saw palmetto.
I'll just use Nizoral when i wash my hair. A lot of people don't know that Nizoral also works great for cycle-related acne. The active ingredient, Ketoconazole, is an effective topical anti-androgen. Therefore, you can use it as a body wash to help control acne on your back and shoulders as well.
can one use rogaine foam on the front of the male pattern baldness? I'm 21, im trying to save my hair!
12-07-2009, 06:49 PM
I took 6-bromo a while back (200mg a day) and my hair fell out like crazy. If you take an AI like 6-oxo without saw palmetto you run the same risk because it will increase your DHT levels, even though you are only taking 1/3 the recommended dose of 6-oxo.
By the way where did you purchase the 6-oxo? I thought it was discontinued. PM me if you can't post it on this forum.
As far as rogaine goes, I've been using rogaine foam for about 2.5 months and I'm seeing great progress, especially in the front. I would say try the foam out. I only apply it once a day.
12-07-2009, 07:18 PM
palmetto really isnt an effective dht blocker anyway
Saw Palmetto: It's not an Alternative to Propecia
Saw Palmetto is not a "natural alternative to Propecia". There are two types of 5 alpha reductase that combine with Testosterone to form DHT. Propecia blocks one of them most effectively, reduces serum (blood stream) DHT levels, and has shown to stop hair loss in 83% of men. Well what about Saw Palmetto? It actually has been shown to block both types of DHT, and this is where all the confusion centers. Just because something can block DHT in a test tube, does not mean it can reduce levels of it in the bloodstream, or stop hair loss. In a clinical study, Saw Palmetto was given to test subjects, and it had no effect on their serum DHT levels. This means it didn't inhibit DHT in the bloodstream effectively like Propecia does. This is the key. As a result of this study, many have hypothesized that Saw Palmetto works for the prostate by some other mechanism than DHT reduction. Propecia and Saw Palmetto are similar in some ways, but completely different where it matters most. As such, they should never be considered "alternatives" to each other.
12-07-2009, 10:51 PM
12-15-2009, 01:20 PM
12-15-2009, 09:00 PM
I'll make this my last post for now, bit tired.
DHT is a neuro-steriod: gets into the brain.
Its neuro-steriod number 1. Aggression, libido, no hair that sort of thing. It does not affect muscle (*sigh* you guys are supposed to know this).
For you guys with hairline trouble - sorry to hear it -... the PCT forum gives a brilliant sticky on keeping hair, but it seems to be a constant battle - you've got to be up for the fight. Well worth a read even if you don't have hairline trouble.
Androgen receptor antagonism of ATD ... all that free test builds 'em muscles! All that free DHT knocks out your hair It makes sense, but I really doubt its that potent.
12-15-2009, 09:15 PM
I was under teh assumption that dht works at the androgen receptor (this was part of my senior research project focus). dht works at the androgen receptor and promote satellite cell proliferation and differentiation into myogenic lineage and inhibits differentiation into adipogenic lineage via activation of pathway downstream wnt canonical pathway.
why would companies make a PH that converts to dht and wouldn't have any effect on muscles?
12-16-2009, 12:25 AM
DHT does bind to androgen receptors much more strongly than testosterone, but it does not have much affect on muscle at all. There is little to no of the 5alpha reductase enzyme in skeletal muscle, which means almost none of the testosterone that makes it to the muscles is converted to DHT. In addition, any DHT in the blood that does make it to the skeletal muscle is basically "deactivated" by the 3alpha-hydroxysteroid reductase enzyme. I guess if you were to inhibit 3a-HSD then DHT could present some significant anabolic effects, but otherwise it's not really a significant muscle builder.
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