green mag and creatine mono
- 11-30-2009, 11:26 AM
green mag and creatine mono
i have recently been using green mag (preworkout) and just picked up sum mono. I was wondering how you think i shoudl use these together, or if at all?
Maybe like green mag pre - mono post or just mono on off days?
Also, When would u take the green mag cuz it says to take pre w/o but i thought creatine is better post?
- 11-30-2009, 11:32 AM
- 11-30-2009, 02:11 PM
you dont need additional creatine, just 1 scoop ofdaily.
12-01-2009, 03:16 AM
12-01-2009, 12:04 PM
12-01-2009, 12:10 PM
I am again using Green Bulge which is similar in capsule form. I take it pre and throw some mono in my post workout shake. The two forms of creatine inside Bulge and Mag are in my opinion pre workout creatines and adding a third creatine to post is def. a plus. Just my 2 cents.
12-01-2009, 01:07 PM
IF you have the creatine mono on hand, don't throw it away. Depending how much you have, you can even add it to your MAGnitude tub and call it a day.
CONTROLLED LABS - WINNING the WAR against GENETICS
Email: pt [at] controlledlabs.com
12-01-2009, 01:08 PM
CONTROLLED LABS - WINNING the WAR against GENETICS
Email: pt [at] controlledlabs.com
12-01-2009, 01:55 PM
12-01-2009, 04:28 PM
12-01-2009, 04:46 PM
12-02-2009, 11:42 PM
dont take that extra 5g of mono post, ur body will convert any extra creatine to creatinine and u piss it out. plus is harder on ur kidneys/greater chance of kidney stones
12-02-2009, 11:56 PM
12-03-2009, 03:23 AM
12-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Creatinine is a breakdown product of creatine, or a chemical waste molecule that is generated from muscle metabolism. which is an important part of muscle. Creatinine is removed from the body entirely by the kidneys. Normal levels of creatinine in the blood are approximately 0.6 to 1.2 milligrams (mg) per deciliter (dl) in adult males and 0.5 to 1.1 milligrams per deciliter in adult females. Muscular young or middle-aged adults may have more creatinine in their blood than the norm for the general population. As the kidneys become impaired the creatinine will rise. Abnormally high levels of creatinine thus warn of possible malfunction or failure of the kidneys, sometimes even before a patient reports any symptoms. It is for this reason that standard blood and urine tests routinely check the amount of creatinine in the blood.
12-03-2009, 12:48 PM
12-03-2009, 02:06 PM
i have seen two in my life. one is my uncle and the other is a friend i sometimes train with, although he uses it year around mostly. so it cant happen. my uncle had blood in his urine from creatine use and my friend had 2 kidney stones. and there was a dude on here about a month ago who posted about kidney pain and when to the dr and he told him to get off creatine. once he got off his pain went away and kidney levels returned to normal. im not against creatine. heck, i just bought a tub of green mag, just u shouldnt prolong the use of it without any breaks or take more than the recommended dosage. its on there for a reason
12-03-2009, 03:23 PM
12-03-2009, 04:32 PM
12-04-2009, 01:34 PM
12-04-2009, 02:40 PM
12-04-2009, 03:05 PM
I don't have any studies, tests, journal abstracts to back any of this up. And I don't even fully agree with what the doctor told my friend. But take it for what it's worth. A couple months ago my friend, who I haven't spoken to in a long time, had to go into the ER with acute kidney failure. He had been taking creatine day in and day out for more than two years (yeah, not smart at all...I know). Of course the doc attributed it directly to his overuse of creatine. Now knowing this guy, he wasn't drinking anywhere near enough water per day, and probably boozing here and there as well.
Long story short, don't take more than you need. There is a such thing as "too much of a good thing". All you're doing is wasting the creatine, wasting money, and putting more stress on your kidneys. It's quite simple.
If GreenMag says pre/wo, take it pre/wo and call it a day. There are other things you can take post workout like beta-alanine, cissus, EAA'S/BCAA's, and Anti-oxidants that are just as beneficial as creatine.
12-04-2009, 03:09 PM
There are studies going 5 years, all the way up to 18 years, or continuous use. I call BS on the kidney issue, unless you have a pre-existing condition.
12-04-2009, 03:16 PM
Like you said, Creatinine may have not been the problem itsself, but high levels are not a good thing. Who knows dude. I'm in the school of thought that you don't need 10g a day, or even a loading phase for that matter, to get what you want to get from Creatine use. Use what ya need to get the job done b/c anything more than that can become a waste of product, $$$, and could potentially be harmful.
12-04-2009, 03:51 PM
I agree with you. I hate seeing 'should i take creatine pre, post, or both' threads. Jesus, it's ****ing creatine, take 2-5gr any time of day you please, and you'll get the effects. We absorb creatine from steak just fine, so trust me, it ain't that fussy.
But I'm pretty sure it's pretty damn safe, too.
12-04-2009, 03:54 PM
I spent a good deal of time earlier this year looking up these studies:
Using Creatine For More Than Muscles
by Anthony L. Almada
A creatine researcher highlights promising medical applications
Headlines in late 1997 blamed creatine for the deaths of three college wrestlers. Yet, after the dust settled, no evidence linked the supplement to the deaths. Lost in the fray were data supporting creatine's safety and efficacy in improving human performance and body composition. Also overlooked were studies examining the amino acid for various metabolic disorders and diseases.
Creatine is poised to evolve into much more than muscle magic. A variety of published and unpublished research shows creatine may decrease tumor growth, increase body mass, decrease blood glucose, reduce triglycerides and cholesterol, extend exercise endurance in congestive heart failure patients, and even alter metabolism in people with neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's and Lou Gehrig's diseases.
The history of creatine, a substance that provides energy to muscles, has been documented during nearly 80 years of clinical research. It began in 1926 when two researchers tested it on themselves and found that it changed body weight and urinary markers of protein metabolism.1
In 1981, an article in the New England Journal Of Medicine described the effect 1.5 g of creative daily had on patients with gyrate atrophy of the choroid and retina—a rare, genetically transmitted visual disorder that results in blindness. Patients with gyrate atrophy also have reduced creatine metabolism.2 After a year of daily supplementation, researchers noted no significant progression of the disease and also found an average 10 percent increase in body weight, increased muscle-fiber diameter, and increased strength and physical performance in a few of the subjects. Creatine the muscle supplement was born.
Lead investigator Ilkka Sipila, M.D., continues to follow these patients who take 1.5-3 g/day creatine and has found no adverse effects after 18 years. In fact, muscle atrophy and weakness remain abated with constant creatine use.3
Then, in 1992, a new application for cellular bioenergetics emerged. In short, cell bioenergetics are the events that enable cells to gain, retain and use energy. Because skeletal muscle is the body's predominant creatine reservoir, researcher began investigating if oral doses of creatine could increase muscular levels of creatine. Roger Harris, Ph.D., and colleagues at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, found muscle levels of creatine increased following supplementation.4 This discovery spawned more than 100 creatine studies in the following six years for a variety of clinical applications.
Tumor Reduction and Weight Gain
The pivotal enzyme in creatine metabolism is creatine kinase, which directs the energy transfer between adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and phosphocreatine (PCr), an energy-liberating compound found in muscles. PCr is produced when creatine is linked with a certain form of phosphorus, a mineral found in food. Creatine kinase works like the fulcrum of a seesaw, fostering the formation of ATP or PCr, depending on metabolic demands. When energy demands are high, ATP is formed at the expense of PCr; when energy demands decline, PCr is reformed at the expense of ATP. This, at a cellular level, is how muscles store and harness energy. Creatine supplementation does not increase ATP but does increase PCr and creatine stores, a bioenergetically favorable alteration.
Some studies show tumors can be identified by their much higher creatine kinase activity.5 Although this suggests creatine kinase directly influences tumor formation and progression, no cause and effect relationship has been described. Indeed, creatine and its chemical cousin, cyclocreatine, both of which can increase creatine kinase activity, decrease the growth rate of several animal and human tumors implanted in animals.6,7 Recent research shows tumor concentrations of creatine and cyclocreatine correlate with tumor inhibition in immune-deficient mice implanted with human colon-cancer cells.7 These data suggest that increasing creatine levels within tumors inhibits them. However, no human studies have been conducted.
Frequent companions of cancerous tumors and immunodeficiency diseases are muscle wasting and general weight loss. HIV/AIDS is probably the most common disease characterized by wasting. The severe and often unremitting weight reductions are not unlike those noted in starvation. One popular strategy to retard this is to increase body mass before the patient advances to a wasting state. With this in mind, I designed a study with Allan Hollister, M.D., Ph.D., of the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver to assess the impact of creatine supplementation on body composition in the pre-wasting, HIV-infected state. We conducted a double-blind, exploratory study on 30 HIV-positive males without wasting symptoms. For eight-weeks, participants were given either 10 or 15 g creatine/day. The men in both groups significantly increased their lean-body mass and modestly increased fat mass; the increase in lean mass lasted at least four weeks after supplementation ended. As a side benefit, both groups also increased their strength.8,9
Carbohydrate and Lipid Modulator
If we examine the chemistry of the creatine molecule (see above) we find one portion harbors a nitrogen-rich component called a guanidine group. Metformin, a recently introduced prescription drug for diabetes, contains two guanidine groups and thus is called a biguanide. One of its principal actions is improving tissue sensitivity to insulin, thereby facilitating the disposal of glucose into tissues.
From a chemist's perspective, it is not improbable to suggest creatine would modify glucose disposal since it also contains guanidine. Indeed, preliminary data from animal studies published in 1928 indicate high doses of creatine cause low blood sugar.10 Recent studies performed in fasting insulin-dependent (Type I) diabetics found a single 3-g dose of creatine produces significant reductions in blood glucose without changing blood insulin.11,12 Recent studies presented at the 1999 American Diabetes Association annual meeting describe a similar effect in noninsulin dependent (Type II) diabetics. Researchers from the University of Zagreb in Croatia found one 3-g dose of creatine reduced blood glucose in such cases. They also found the effects of creatine equaled those produced by a drug that increases insulin output, but the effects were greatest when the drug and creatine were taken together.13
Occasionally in clinical research you look for one thing but find another. In a study conducted with Conrad Earnest, Ph.D., and colleagues at Texas Women's University, in Denton, and the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School, Dallas, we researched the effects of creatine on body composition and strength (see sidebar below). In the process we saw a considerable reduction in blood cholesterol concentrations in a few subjects.14 Eight subjects were asked to maintain their usual diet and training regimen throughout the 28-day study. Although analysis of three-day diet diaries revealed the creatine group ate fewer total calories and had lower carbohydrate and fat intakes, these differences were not statistically significant.
In light of the unexpected results from this study, we undertook a systematic double-blind, placebo-controlled investigation of 34 mildly hyperlipidemic (blood fasting total cholesterol levels between 220 and 250 mg/dL) patients at the Cooper Clinic in Dallas. We found 10*20 g creatine/day for eight weeks reduced triglycerides by 22 to 23 percent and total cholesterol by 5 to 6 percent in both men and women aged 32 to 70.15 There was no effect on high-density lipoprotein (HDL) or low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol. Surprisingly, we also found these effects persisted at least four weeks after discontinuing creatine supplementation. The men in the study tended to have greater blood lipid-lowering effects and reductions in fasting blood glucose levels than the women. Unfortunately, we did not measure fasting insulin concentrations, which would have provided more data to evaluate whether creatine decreases insulin resistance or improves insulin sensitivity.
In a recent study conducted in collaboration with Richard Kreider, Ph.D., and colleagues at the University of Memphis, Tenn., we duplicated the hypolipidemic effects in a group of university football players during off-season training.16 However, another study by Jeff Volek, Ph.D., and colleagues at Penn State University, University Park, did not corroborate the findings after three months of creatine supplementation in young male weight lifters (see sidebar).17
Because elevated triglycerides are a risk factor for cardiovascular disease, especially coronary heart disease, creatine's triglyceride-lowering effect is significant.18,19 The Stockholm Ischemic Heart Disease Prevention Study conducted on 555 people in the 1980s showed that patients whose triglyceride levels dropped 30 percent halved their risk of dying from a secondary coronary heart disease event. This was related to reductions of triglycerides, not total cholesterol.20 No pharmaceuticals have hypolipidemic effects limited to the triglyceride fraction. Certainly a larger trial of creatine's triglyceride-lowering effects must be completed to better understand this important potential application.
Flexing the Heart Muscle
Congestive heart failure (CHF) patients have greatly compromised exercise tolerance. It seems logical that defects in cardiac metabolism are the cause, but this may not be the case. Since the heart is a collection of smooth and skeletal muscles, it is likely that impaired use of PCr in skeletal muscle also contributes to reduced endurance.21 In support of this theory, creatine supplementation has been shown to extend exercise endurance in CHF patients22—probably a result of creatine's ability to prolong cellular energy production in skeletal muscle under periods of metabolic demand, rather than a direct effect on cardiac function. In addition, studies show that muscle creatine and PCr concentrations increase following supplementation in CHF patients, suggesting improved skeletal muscle performance.
Creatine and Clinical Neurology
Most creatine is stored in skeletal muscle cells, but the brain and nerves also store it. Investigations by Rima Kaddurah-Daouk, Ph.D., of Avicena Group, Cambridge, Mass., and Flint Beal, Ph.D., of Harvard Medical School, Cambridge, and Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, have uncovered some novel applications for creatine in several neurodegenerative diseases. Recent studies in an animal model of Lou Gehrig's disease show creatine is equal or superior to riluzole, the current drug of choice, in extending survival time.23
A common element in Alzheimer's, Huntington's, Lou Gehrig's and Parkinson's diseases may be impaired energy production in the brain that ultimately leads to increased cell damage.24 For example, the genetic mutation present in Huntington's disease may impair nerve cell energy production. To test this theory, rats with a chemically induced condition mimicking the lesions found in Huntington's disease were given an oral dose of creatine and cyclocreatine totaling 0.25 to 3 percent of their diet, by weight, for two to three weeks. Following supplementation they showed significant neuroprotection (decreased lesion volume and preservation of PCr and ATP) and reduced oxidative stress.25 Kaddurah-Daouk and Beal have begun intervention trials with Lou Gehrig's disease patients and other studies with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's patients.
Duchenne's muscular dystrophy (DMD), a gender-specific genetic neuromuscular disease affecting only young boys, may be characterized by elevated intracellular calcium concentrations. A recent report from Swiss scientists suggests creatine supplementation may enable affected muscle cells to regulate calcium concentration within the cell, increase phosphocreatine concentrations, and increase the survivability of DMD mouse muscle cells.26 A preliminary investigation to assess creatine's effect in DMD boys is being planned. Creatine supplementation for children appears safe based on studies of infants with an enzymatic defect in creatine synthesis who took 400 to 500 mg/kg/day—almost double the adult loading dose—for more than two years.27,28
Creatine's potential usefulness has been building through nearly eight decades of research. After entering the laboratory as a "steroid substitute" with questionable efficacy and safety, creatine is now moving into a position of prominence in clinical medicine. Given the role of creatine and phosphocreatine in cellular metabolism, it is easy to imagine other metabolic avenues that may be influenced by creatine. The next century will undoubtedly reveal more about creatine's potential in both health maintenance and disease treatment.
12-04-2009, 03:57 PM
poison, did u not read my thread??? after he stopped the use of creatine his kidney levels and creatinine went back to normal and he hasnt had a kidney stone since because he hasnt been on creatine. so ur saying that, even if he had 2 kidney stones on it then stopped, no stones and levels back to normal that it cant be creatine abuse. fu)kin dumba$$
12-04-2009, 04:08 PM
Are you're sure he didn't have a pre-disposition or pre-existing condition? EVERY study shows ZERO negative effect on kidneys, be it 10gr a day for 2 years straight, or 5gr for 5 years, or more.
Are you saying a single anamoly, like your friend, proves anything? Dumbass.
12-04-2009, 04:14 PM
I personally find I get the best results when I take my creatine when the stars are perfectly aligned with the Gremlak Universe and the 2nd moon shines bright on the 14th day of the summer solstice. With 30g of Dextrose of course!!
12-04-2009, 10:58 PM
yeah ok...thats whby last summer a kid in hs died from creatine during two a days at football. give me a website that ends it .gov or .edu thats reliable. anyone can make a .com website and say creatine doesnt harm you. anything you take in abundance can harm you. heck, if u intake too much potassium it can harm you. potassium is used to regulate your heartbeat, if u take too much u can have a irregular heart beat. look up ur sh!t man. im in school going to be a physician. dont try to diss me at my own game
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