L-Carnitine L-Tartrate vs. PLCAR
- 11-13-2009, 03:27 PM
L-Carnitine L-Tartrate vs. PLCAR
L-Carnitine L-Tartrate vs. PLCAR
I doubt that there has ever been an exact comparison/test between the two concerning their effects on increasing the number of androgen receptors in skeletal muscle. Ok so im going to be picking up either bulk LCLT or PLCAR for the main purpose of increasing ARs and was wondering if any one of the great minds out there has an inkling as to which may be a better choice, or would I not really notice the difference between the 2 and should I just pick up the one I can get the best price for. All ideas and thoughts on this topic are welcome and appreciated.
- 11-14-2009, 08:29 AM
Carnitines: Dissimilar Members of the Same Family
One of the best known amino acid is actually not an amino acid. L-Carnitine (also known as carnitine) is not an amino acid in the strict definition as it is not a component of proteins and more closely resembles a B-vitamin. Many readers are familiar with the general benefits of carnitine, such as its effect on improving cardiovascular health. The main biological effect of carnitine is to shuttle long chain fatty acids into the mitochondria, which is the energy manufacturing organelle inside our cells. Systemically, the overwhelming amount of carnitine (approximately 95%) is found in our skeletal muscle and heart tissue cells.
Nutritional scientists use the phrase “conditionally essential” to describe carnitine because under certain conditions of physical stress, disease, or trauma, it may be imperative to consume carnitine. We only produce about 20 milligrams of carnitine internally (de-novo synthesis) on a daily basis. The amounts we get from our diet vary tremendously according to dietary practices. The estimates of carnitine consumption are 72 mg/person/day in Japan, 225 mg /person/day in the U.S., and 290 mg/person/day in New Zealand.
While dietary supplement consumers have favorably embraced carnitines, the array of different carnitine forms available in the market has resulted in consumer confusion. Choices include Carnitine Tartrate, Carnitine Fumarate, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine Arginate, Propionyl- L-Carnitine, to name a few. Which is the best form and what are the differences? To answer these questions requires a slight investigation to uncover the differences in forms and effects of these various carnitines.
One of the main reasons for the different commercial forms of carnitine is because the carnitine molecule is inherently unstable. It has a powerful ability to attract moisture (hygroscopicity), thus resulting in difficulties of formulating in a finished dosage format. This led the two primary pioneers of carnitine manufacturing, Sigma Tau and Lonza, to employ the use of stabilizing salts to eliminate the hygroscopic effect and stabilize carnitine. The addition of the salts tartrate or fumarate results in a stable carnitine for a finished dosage format. These forms of carnitine are called salts of carnitine, as they are not molecular bonds per se, but rather weak ionic interaction. In other words, when you consume a carnitine tartrate or a carnitine fumarate, it results in a release of free of carnitine and the stabilizing salt. Sure, there are differences in the effects of the salt themselves, but in my opinion the differences are minor as the real active compound is the carnitine.
Some forms of carnitine are not stabilized salts but completely different molecules with differences in biological effects. These are not carnitine salts but rather molecular analogs of carnitine. Some examples of these analogs are Acetylcarnitine (also known as Alcar or ALC), Propionylcarnitine (PLC), Carnitine Creatinate, Carnitine Taurinate, and Carnitine Arginate. As a result of the additional compounds bonded to the carnitine molecule, these carnitine analogs offer different biological effects. Unfortunately, for most of these products, there have not been comparative clinical trials conducted to determine if these biological effects are specific to the carnitine analog or to carnitines in general. But, the following can provide some understanding of the carnitine analogs:
“Carnitine Plus” molecules
This is a group of carnitine-based molecules whereby an additional nutrient is bonded to the carnitine. The additional molecule can be Arginine, Creatine, Taurine, Lysine, or other nutrient. These carnitine analogs are likely cleaved into free carnitine plus the accompanying nutrient prior to absorption into the body. Sure, taking a carnitine creatinate is superior to taking ordinary carnitine, but it’s not a fair comparison. A more interesting comparison would be to investigate if there’s any difference after oral administration of a carnitine-plus-nutrient molecule versus a carnitine-and-nutrient mixture - - the latter being a simple mixture of two powders, not a molecular bond, and a lot less costly. So, in general, the “carnitine plus” molecules are still in a phase of proving their worth. Two carnitine analogs, though, are deserving of a special mention because of their difference from ordinary carnitines as well as the amount of clinical data substantiating their use: Propionylcarnitine and Acetylcarnitine.
Propionylcarnitine (PLC) is available commercially in the form of glycine-propionylcarnitine (esterified carnitine) and this is a superb form of carnitine very specific for muscle tissue and cardiovascular protection. In an experimental rodent study, ordinary carnitine and acetylcarnitine had no protective effect on vascular inflammation, but PLC offered significant protection. Although ordinary carnitine and acetylcarnitine have proven cardiovascular benefit, there are some effects of PLC that are superior for particular cardiovascular conditions.
This is one of my favorite forms of carnitine because of its versatility in affecting a variety of tissues including the brain, nerve, and muscle tissue. Ordinary carnitine cannot cross the blood brain barrier (BBB), however acetylcarnitine crosses the BBB and has been proven clinically to benefit the brain. Acetylcarnitine is also a better stimulator of the mitochondria for energy synthesis than ordinary carnitine. The surprising twist is that no pharmacokinetic study has been done with acetylcarnitine to determine if it is absorbed intact. However, it has been determined in a study that consuming acetylcarnitine raises acetylcarnitine levels in the blood, and therefore yielding the desired result. If I had to simplify my life and choose one form of carnitine, based on versatility, price, and proven efficacy, I would choose acetylcarnitine.
A few other points should also be considered in order to best utilize carnitine. First, carnitine is not caffeine, so don’t expect a result in one hour. Carnitine’s effects are really felt after about four weeks of supplementation. Second, use carnitine in conjunction with synergestic nutrients such as D-Ribose (an ATP stimulator), CoQ10, and Magnesium. As to the form of carnitine, remember that there are significant differences in the members of the carnitine family. Use the above as a guide to maximize your results from the benefits of carnitines. In the final analysis, the type of carnitine you choose should be based on your specific health condition and budget.
11-14-2009, 08:33 AM
The primary function of carnitine in the body, is to regulate fat oxidation (burning). L-Carnitine is responsible for transporting fat to the fat furnace in our cells called mitochondria. Unless fat makes it to the mitochondria, it cannot be oxidized, no matter how much you exercise or diet.
Many studies have been done to determine the effectiveness of L-Carnitine for fat burning. Evidence, more so than not, has suggested that when used correctly, along with a balanced diet (adequate protein, essential fats, and fiber), it works. L-Carnitine however, is not the "silver bullet"; it is just another piece of the fat burning puzzle.
HOW YOUR BODY MAKES L-CARNITINE:
The body can make small amounts of L-Carnitine.
To do so, you need the amino acids: lysine and methionine and vitamins such as niacin, B6, and vitamin C.
A shortage of any of these nutrients, can lower carnitine levels and reduce fat burning .
Lysine has been shown to boost carnitine levels. Lysine is the amino acid precursor that builds the carnitine molecule.**
Strict vegetarians get little or no carnitine.
SOURCES OF L-CARNITINE IN OUR DIETS:
L-Carnitine is found predominately in meat and animal products.
Red meat is the best source.
Chicken and turkey also contain carnitine.
Dairy and milk products contain small amounts.
Most fruits, vegetables, and grains contain almost no carnitine. The exceptions are tempeh and avocados, which contain small amounts.
FACTORS THAT INHIBIT L-CARNITINE PRODUCTION
AND FAT BURNING:
L-Carnitine works best with a diet low in sugars and starches (carbohydrates).
Studies show that for carnitine to work effectively, carbohydrate intake should be kept below 50% of total calories consumed daily.
Elevated insulin levels inhibit optimal carnitine activity (the burning of body fat and energy production).
Omega 3 fats (flaxseed and fish oils) improve carnitine activity and function in the body.**
Adequate protein at each meal is essential for carnitine activity and fat burning.
** Benefit from Flax Seed Oil . Not only does it improve carnitine activity in the body, but studies have shown that it can substantially lower the risk of death from coronary heart disease. Flax seed oil contains twice the amount of Omega-3 oils than that of fish oil products. NSP's Flax Seed Oil is 100% organic and unrefined; due to the cold pressing of the seeds.
Reap the benefits of **Super Oil capsules that combines oil from three different sources.
Hemp oil and Hemp Hearts are Nature's super food, unleash their remarkable powers.
L-CARNITINE AND FAT BURNING:
L-Carnitine assists in the transport of long-chained fatty acids that are burned for energy.
L-Carnitine enhances the consumption of fat as a source of fuel.
L-Carnitine has been shown to increase the amount of fat you burn during both anaerobic (strength training) and aerobic (cardiovascular) workouts.
L-Carnitine plays an important role in mobilizing fatty deposits found in tissues of overweight individuals.
L-Carnitine helps remove fats waste products (ketones) from the blood stream.
Effective carnitine activity helps to discourage fatty build up in the liver, heart, and skeletal muscle.
L-Carnitine has been shown to improve lean muscle strength. Maintaining muscle tissue takes four to five times more calories than maintaining fat tissue, which is important for permanent weight loss.
L-Carnitine helps to stabilize blood sugar and eliminate cravings for carbohydrates.
SUPPLEMENTING L-CARNITINE CORRECTLY:
First, you need to start taking at least 1000 mg per day of L-Carnitine to promote weight loss. Obese individuals may start with 2000 mg per day.
Those with metabolic resistance, start to do well on 3000-5000 mg per day.
Research has shown, that when you start to feel more energy, it is a sign that the level of carnitine, you are using, is starting to burn body fat.
Increase carnitine by 500 mg per day (one capsule) until you begin to feel this increased energy level in you daily lifestyle.
Your energy level will be your guide as to how effective carnitine is working in your body.
The Physician's Desk Reference (PDR) lists no toxic effects from prolonged use of L-Carnitine.
It is best taken before breakfast and lunch.
The best research on Carnitine can be found in the book :
The Carnitine Miracle, by Robert Crayhon, M.S. ISBN: 0-87131-825-3
Turning up your metabolism with the right nutrients is essential for weight loss. There is significant evidence that increased levels of carnitine in tissue leads to increased fat burning. Obesity is not a drug deficiency. Administering certain synthetic medications or nutrients can stimulate thermogenic activity, but supplying your body with the essential nutrients is all that it needs to activate correct fat metabolism, rather than a caloric restriction or brain chemistry manipulation. Nutrients won't do everything. You need a diet that is lower in carbohydrates, contains adequate proteins, essential fats, plenty of fiber, and a routine physical exercise program.
L-carnitine is made in the body from the amino acids lysine and methionine. It is needed to release energy from fat. Its actions appear to be particularly important in the heart. For congestive heart failure, much of the research has used a modified form of carnitine called propionyl-L-carnitine (PC). In one double blind trial, using 500 mg PC per day led to a 26% increase in exercise capacity after six months.1
Research shows that individuals who supplement with carnitine while engaging in an exercise regimen are less likely to experience muscle soreness.2 However, the belief that carnitine’s effect on energy release will help build muscle or improve athletic performance has, so far, not been supported by most research.3 4
L-Carnitine work quickly in encouraging the body to burn stored fat for energy rather than carbohydrates. It does this by forcing fat into the muscular cells.
However, carnitine has been given to people with chronic lung disease in trials investigating how the body responds to exercise.5 6 In these double blind reports, 2 grams of carnitine taken twice per day for two to four weeks led to positive changes in breathing response to exercise.
Where is it found? Dairy and red meat contain the greatest amounts of carnitine. Therefore, people who have a limited intake of meat and dairy products tend to have lower carnitine intakes.
Who is likely to be deficient? L-Carnitine deficiencies are rare, even in strict vegetarians, because the body produces carnitine relatively easily.
Rare genetic diseases can cause a carnitine deficiency. Also, deficiencies are occasionally associated with other diseases, such as diabetes and cirrhosis.7 8 A carnitine deficiency can also result from oxygen deprivation which can occur in some heart conditions. In Italy, carnitine is prescribed for heart failure, heart arrhythmias, angina pectoris, and lack of oxygen to the heart.9
Carnitine and Athletes. As a athlete, you know performance centers on your body’s ability to produce explosive energy. And since fat provides the main energy fuel for muscles, tapping into your body’s fat stores is critical. That’s where carnitine come in. Playing a key role in fat oxidation, caritine "shuttles" or transports long-chair fatty acids (the highest energy food ) across the mitochondrial membrane (the power plant of the cell) for enhanced energy production. Without it, fats cannot burned for energy; they are instead stored in the body as fats and triglycerides. Carnitine work quickly in encouraging the body to burn stored fat for energy rather than carbohydrates. It does this by forcing fat into the muscular cells.
90% of carnitine is located in skeletal and cardiac muscle cells. A deficiency can seriously impair the normal functioning of the heart and muscles. This is particularly true among vegetarians, who are more likely to experience carntine deficiency. The reason for this is simple: carnitine is most abundant in meats and milk. Thus, vegetarians could benefit immensely from supplementation.
According to several studies, carnitine supplementation resulted in significant improvements in cardiovascular function after exercise in several double-bline studies among athletes and normal subjects alike. Moreover, carnitine can improve exercise intensity and endurance through fat oxidation and by reducing blood lactic acid levels.
How much is usually taken? Most people do not need carnitine supplements. For therapeutic use, typical amounts are 1–3 grams per day.
It remains unclear whether the propionyl-L-carnitine form of carnitine used in congestive heart failure research has greater benefits than the L-carnitine form, since limited research in both animals and humans with the more common L-carnitine has also shown very promising effects.10
Are there any side effects or interactions? L-carnitine has not been consistently linked with any toxicity.
11-15-2009, 01:01 AM
After doing some reading, I'm wondering if a new Carnitine-Nitrate might show up in the near future? Anyone know mif this might have any benefit over Plcar/GPLC etc?
11-15-2009, 11:09 PM
11-16-2009, 10:13 AM
I would buy neither for the purpose of up-regulating AR's. An increase in TEST will increase regulation.
Cortisol, alcohol, and Soy(some say) are some examples that can lead to a decrease in AR's.
11-16-2009, 11:52 AM
Studies have been done that supposedly show they "increase" the amount of actual ARs within the muslce or increase the density and sensitivity of them not upregulate "dirty" ARs like some people think NAC does. Whether they do a great job at this or not I dont know but I am curious as to which may do it better if any. I am purchasing it more for carnitine's effect on shuffling fat into the mitochondria for fuel but if one of them was better than another pertaining AR increasing/sensitivity or whatever then I would choose that one.
11-16-2009, 12:05 PM
11-16-2009, 12:51 PM
11-16-2009, 01:48 PM
11-16-2009, 01:50 PM
Androgenic responses to resistance exercise: effects of feeding and L-carnitine.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826026?ordinalpos=1&itool=En %20trezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed. Pub%20med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_ Discov%20eryPanel.Pubmed_Disco very_RA&l%20inkpos=4&log$=rela tedarticles&%20logdbfrom=pubme d
11-16-2009, 01:51 PM
11-16-2009, 02:03 PM
11-18-2009, 05:24 AM
11-19-2009, 12:35 PM
i think the issue is what/which ester form will work best for you to have a huge pool of L-carnitine in there...once Car is in there,,,all those neat studies and benefits will be happening,,,the problem here is the delivery.
injecting l-carnitine is one thing but OTC purpose i guess should try or take all the forms in a shot gun format to get all in there LOL
i mean how much difference will it make though to AR in vivo?? that would be great if it can increase sensitivty or the numbers of AR but so does post workout carbs/whey they increase the nubmers as well.
11-19-2009, 02:26 PM
11-19-2009, 02:43 PM
in a 32 ounce gatorade bottle -
1 flat tsp LCLT
1 flat tsp PLCAR
1 gram Taurine
3 grams Beta-alanine
2 grams calcium citrate
4 scoops Xtend
1 capsule of Sline-sane (it's a Norvaline/Banaba/Gymnemma supp)
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
11-20-2009, 10:03 AM
I am assuming that this is with the gatorade not just water mixed in with the ingredients in a gatorade bottle?
Also how do you like the Alpha-GPC I have been meaning to try some but have not yet, notice anything better with focus when taking it? Looks like a real good mix you got there. Thanks for the info.
11-20-2009, 12:47 PM
11-20-2009, 12:56 PM
William J. Kraemer1 , Jeff S. Volek1, Barry A. Spiering1 and Jakob L. Vingren1
Human Performance Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology, Department of Physiology and Neurobiology, University of Connecticut, 06269 Storrs, CT, USA
Received: 20 October 2004 Accepted: 24 November 2004 Published online: 10 June 2005
Summary. Early research investigating the effects of L-carnitine supplementation has examined its role in substrate metabolism and in acute exercise performance. These studies have yielded equivocal findings, partially due to difficulties in increasing muscle carnitine concentrations. However, recent studies have proposed that L-carnitine may play a different role in exercise physiology, and preliminary results have been encouraging. Current investigations have theorized that L-carnitine supplementation facilitates exercise recovery. Proposed mechanism is as follows: 1) increased serum carnitine concentration enhances capillary endothelial function; 2) increased blood flow and reduced hypoxia mitigate the cascade of ensuing, destructive chemical events following exercise; 3) thus allowing reduced structural damage of skeletal muscle mediated by more intact receptors in muscle needed for improved protein signaling. This paradigm explains decreased markers of purine catabolism, free radical formation, and muscle tissue disruption after resistance exercise and the increased repair of muscle proteins following long-term L-carnitine supplementation.
11-20-2009, 01:06 PM
Androgen Receptor Up-Regulation Introduction
The influence of testosterone (T) on skeletal muscle protein synthesis is mediated by the androgen receptor (AR). T binding to the AR converts the latter to a transcription factor; the T-AR complex then translocates to the nucleus and associates with DNA to regulate androgen-specific gene expression.1
Animal and clinical studies indicate that the AR signaling pathway is required for appropriate development of skeletal muscles, since it regulates increases in lean muscle mass, muscle strength, and muscle protein synthesis. The physiological importance of AR for muscle protein accretion has been demonstrated, as muscle hypertrophy is attenuated by AR blockade.2
Effects Of Exercise On AR
Several human and animal investigations have researched the physiological importance of the AR in exercise-induced muscle hypertrophy,1-8 emphasizing the importance of exercise at increasing the AR content,1-3,5,6 seemingly in a fiber-specific manner.4
Resistance exercise (RE), for instance, elicits a significant decrease in AR content in type-I slow oxidative, and a significant increase in type-IIb fast glycolytic fibers.4
Type-IIb fibers are those white fibers, also referred to as fast twitch B or fatigable fibers, that are most beneficial in sports such as sprinting. These fibers have low myoglobin content, few-mitochondria, and few blood capillaries, but contain a large amount of glycogen - these muscles primary source for energy during short, intense bursts in activity.
In untrained men, a single bout of heavy RE has been reported to up-regulate AR mRNA 48h post-training.3,6 Repeated RE bouts (each separated by 48h) instead, have been shown to increase AR mRNA and protein expression.3
Such augmentation correlated with elevated serum testosterone levels and corresponded to significant increases in myofibrillar protein.3 Testosterone is the primary hormone that interacts with skeletal muscle tissue, and when elevated leads to increased muscle growth.
In trained individuals, high-volume high-intensity RE appears to cause a significant decrease in AR protein content (-46%) at 1h post-exercise, probably due to protein catabolism induced by exercise-related stress.5
Such a negative effect, however, seems to be somewhat mitigated by post-RE feeding, which has been shown to increase muscle AR content, resulting in increased testosterone tissue uptake and enhanced luteinizing hormone (LH) - which also has been shown to elevate testosterone levels - release via feedback mechanisms.1 These observations provide a possible mechanism for increased protein synthesis following post-RE food intake.
What Is Luteinizing Hormone?
Luteinizing hormone (LH, also known as lutropin) is a hormone synthesized and secreted by gonadotropes in the anterior lobe of the pituitary gland. In concert with the other pituitary gonadotropin follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) it is necessary for proper reproductive function.
[ wikipedia ]
Effects Of L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate Supplementation On AR:
L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate (LCLT) supplementation has been evaluated in RE-trained humans as an enhancer of the hormonal responses to RE and a recovery promoter.1,9,10
3-weeks supplementation with LCLT (equivalent to 2 g elemental carnitine/day) has been shown to reduce muscle damage produced by an acute bout of high-intensity RE in two cross-over, placebo-controlled trials.9,10 - the "gold standard" so to speak in terms of clinical trials.
According to the investigators, less muscle damage may have resulted in more hormonal receptors available for binding interactions with anabolic hormones,9 a circumstance that may explain the reduced progression of muscle damage (measured by MRI) in the recovery days following RE.9,10 With more hormonal receptors available for binding interactions with anabolic hormones, muscle growth potential is also increased.
In particular, one study has shown that 21-days LCLT supplementation (equivalent to 2 g elemental carnitine/day) in recreationally resistance-trained individuals induced a significant upregulation of pre-exercise skeletal muscle AR protein content [15.2% more compared with PL (12.9+/-5.9 vs. 11.2+/-4.0 au, respectively)] compared with placebo.1
LCLT may have worked by reducing muscle damage associated with RE,9,10 therefore attenuating the catabolism of muscle-specific proteins (including AR).1
As a consequence, LCLT may enhance testosterone uptake via less muscle damage and increased availability of AR, and not via direct stimulation of T secretion (in other words, LCLT is not a testosterone-enhancing supplement).1
Based on these considerations, and on the fact that post-RE feeding stimulates increases in AR content (see above),1 it is possible that LCLT and feeding may independently and synergistically enhance the hormonal environment following RE and promote anabolism.
In summary, research shows that:
Feeding after RE increased AR content, which may result in increased testosterone uptake, and thus enhanced luteinizing hormone secretion via feedback mechanisms.
L-carnitine supplementation can upregulate AR content, which may promote increased testosterone uptake and recovery from RE.
In layman's terms, such increases in anabolic hormones and with recovery being enhanced you can expect more muscle growth.
Kraemer, W.J., et al. Androgenic Responses to resistance exercise: Effects of feeding and L-Carnitine. Med Sci Sports Exerc 38(7): 1288-1296, 2006.
Inoue, K., et al. Androgen receptor antagonist suppresses exercise-induced hypertrophy of skeletal muscle. Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol 69(1): 88-91, 1994.
Willoughby, D.S., and L. Taylor. Effects of sequential bouts of resistance exercise on androgen receptor expression. Med Sci Sports Exerc 36(9):1499-1506, 2004.
Deschenes, M.R., et al. Endurance and resistance exercise induce muscle fiber type specific responses in androgen binding capacity. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 50(3-4): 175-179, 1994.
Ratamess, N.A., et al. Androgen receptor content following heavy resistance exercise in men. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 93(1): 35-42, 2005.
Bamman, M.M., et al. Mechanical load increases muscle IGF-I and androgen receptor mRNA concentrations in humans. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 280(3): E383-390, 2001.
Tchaikovsky, V.S., et al. The effect of exercises on the content and reception of the steroid hormones in rat skeletal muscles. J Steroid Biochem 24(1): 251-253, 1986.
Lee, W.J., et al. Regulation of androgen receptor expression at the onset of functional overload in rat plantaris muscle. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol 285(5): R1076-R1085, 2003.
Kraemer, W.J., et al. The Effects of L-Carnitine L-Tartrate supplementation on hormonal responses to resistance exercise and recovery. J Strength Cond Res 17(3): 455-462, 2003.
Volek, J.S., et al. L-Carnitine L-Tartrate supplementation favorably affects markers of recovery from exercise stress. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 282(2): E474-E482, 2002.
11-20-2009, 01:30 PM
11-20-2009, 01:51 PM
PLCAR has a higher affinity for muscle and cardiac mitochondria - hence my recommendation of it.
The Tartarate version is recommended merely because that is the only form with a conclusive study performed on it.
Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
11-20-2009, 02:10 PM
Dsade, where do you get your Alpha-GPC. I'm looking on Nutra now and see that NOW has it, but noone else. Could you point me in any certain direction?
That intra-WO stack of yours looks SICK!!!
11-20-2009, 02:13 PM
12-10-2009, 06:10 AM
Yes, that'd be great!! I get mine from BAC as well and it's very good, high quality material unlike BN which didn't do squat for me..
03-25-2011, 11:36 AM
06-04-2011, 06:17 PM
my vote goes to plcar
the plcar at 3-4g a day increases sex drive in an insane manner; in my case this is painstakingly obvious in 3 days. its noted here that a spectracell test i took has me a high blood carnitine; for anyone who doesnt know it, spectracell claims to be a vastly superior measure of a range of nutrient levels dating back 6 months, as opposed to a blood test which tells you what youve got in your stream at the moment. anyway, my dramatic responce to the plcar in so quick a manner could in part be due to my naturally high levels, whereas someone starting lower may take longer to get there. in my opinion plcar is better than alcar with regards to sex drive and muscle energy. i discontinued both products, having taken neither more than 8 days because of the resulting loss of apetite. while this is favorable to many people perhaps, all the weight i gain turns into muscle mass, so im happy with my apetite. i would like to experiment with this substance further, as the dr wright protocal has people taking 4g a day without discussion of taking a break and, frankly, id like to see if there's a saturation point we can reach where the amount is too much. the site i studied advocating dr wrights protocal was claiming people in their seventies would maintain the same vibrant sex drive as ehen they were 20; having glimpsed at plcar's awesome power, im stashing this experience in my memory bank
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