I'm not a beginner to fitness or lifting at all, just to the whole ph thing. My problem is i'm trying to gain weight and i guess i'm making a bad desicion right off the bad by barely cutting back on my cardio(i'm a cardio freak though, and it's hard to ease up on something that you love)and i have to eat like a horse to keep the weight on that i have. I have a very balanced diet...i may eat a bad meal a week, sometimes not even that, though i do have a bad habit of having a couple of beers on my porch every night. I'm trying to gain some weight and lean mass with as little fat gain as possible and def want to not only keep the good definition i have now, but improve on it.

I've never been much into supplements though and have pretty much just always religiously used Optimum whey and whatever L-Glutamine was cheapest at the time. I've decided to take things more seriously and that is what has brought me to this. I have dieting down and i work out normally 5 days a week for 45- an hour and three of those days i do an A.M. workout that an hour plus. What is a good ph to start with...and what pct would be good to follow up with? The big reason i haven't done anything is the fear of those side affects,but as i understand if you do your pct right you won't have to worry.

i've also taken some advice and on top of my protein( no glutamine at the moment) i just recieved a big tub of n.o.xplode, Nitrix and cellmass.I've got some more money to spend on this though that i've put aside.sorry about the windy post, but any and all help would be greatly appreciated....

Let's see an example diet for "eating like a horse." In other words, list all your meals for a typical day with portion sizes.

Also, what's your age?

Finally, ph's usually aren't discussed in the "supplements" forum.

No offense but you're a VERY LONG way from making any intelligent decisions about pro hormones. Do some research - on this site and elsewhere. All the info you'd ever need (and then some) is waiting for you.

At 6' 177 lbs my only advice would be to put on another 30-40 lbs of natural muscle before getting into PH's. No PH is going to help you unless you have a very solid diet plan. Do some research on this as well.

please move this to the anabolic forum
this is not the right place for discussion of ph's

Originally Posted by Chucke

No offense but you're a VERY LONG way from making any intelligent decisions about pro hormones. Do some research - on this site and elsewhere. All the info you'd ever need (and then some) is waiting for you.

At 6' 177 lbs my only advice would be to put on another 30-40 lbs of natural muscle before getting into PH's. No PH is going to help you unless you have a very solid diet plan. Do some research on this as well.

why does everyone say this nonsense?


why does he have to max out his frame completely before getting easy gains? what would be the difference between him using havoc and gaining 12lbs, then growing after, and growing then using PHs? it is not like PHs stunt normal growth.


and what do you mean by a solid diet plan? eat 3500 cals, or whatever number is above your maintenance enough to grow. make sure you get your EFAs, 2x LBM in protein, and the rest carbs.


No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT

read that. it will tell you a lot of what you need to know about post cycle therapy, which is ,really, the most important part of a cycle.

Originally Posted by soontobbeast

why does everyone say this nonsense?


why does he have to max out his frame completely before getting easy gains? what would be the difference between him using havoc and gaining 12lbs, then growing after, and growing then using PHs? it is not like PHs stunt normal growth.


and what do you mean by a solid diet plan? eat 3500 cals, or whatever number is above your maintenance enough to grow. make sure you get your EFAs, 2x LBM in protein, and the rest carbs.


No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT

read that. it will tell you a lot of what you need to know about post cycle therapy, which is ,really, the most important part of a cycle.

I think what he is suggesting is that at 6 foot 177 he may have some room to gain more naturally with a little more work, like maybe get to his natural plateau or some other plateau for that matter...then you look at something like a PH to help make more gains.

A common philosophy is to do every thing possible outside of AAS/Prohormones to get big and ripped, then when you have exhausted all efforts, do you research to see if something more "hardcore" is your next step

I believe his suggestion was conservative, if he is new to working out then taking a PH or AAS early may develop a bad habit of relying on PH's to make gains rather on hard work, after all a PH can get you gains FAST, going natural takes more time

This is my interpretation, not neccessary my opinion