arginine questions

djbombsquad

djbombsquad

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/pmc/articles/PMC1894731/

Someone sent me this and it looks like that oral intake of L-arginine of 20+ grams per day results in arginine absorption that is highly variable across subjects. Any thoughts? I am not on arginine now but I will be soon using it.
(Bode-Boger et al., 1998), indicating no effect of oral L-arginine intake on vasodilation, partly due the fact that oral L-arginine bioavailability is only ~68%. Hence, based on the available evidence, it seems unlikely that oral L-arginine intake will result in any improvement in blood flow. Lastly, some of the original investigations have used animals (typically rodents) as test subjects and not humans, or have involved experiments in vitro (i.e., outside of a living organism). Generalizations to humans cannot always be made from such studies
 
poison

poison

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My thoughts are that yes, arginine markedly improves pumps, and no, pumps outside the realm of what your body would normally provide are not at all useful in any ergogenic way. They are purely cosmetic.

Citrulline is another story, definitely improves performance.
 
jaydollars

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I personally have only noticed a pump effect with supplements that have AAKG, for me they make me feel like my muscles are going to rip open and break my skin, haha thats a little exagerated
 
djbombsquad

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AKG has not even been studied let alone in humans.
Has Citrulline been studied in humans to Increases NO production?
Arginine has not shown to increase NO production in humans.
 
djbombsquad

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L-Arginine

Alpha Keto Glutarate

L-Arginine Base

L-Arginine Decanoate

L-Arginine DL-Malate

L-Arginine DL-Malate (DiArginine DL-Malate)

L-Arginine Ethyl Ester DiHCl

L-Arginine Ethyl Ester Malate

L-Arginine L-Aspartate

L-Arginine L-Malate

L-Arginine L-Pyroglutamate

L-Arginine Mono HCl

L-Arginine Orotate

Look familiar? I use to think that one form is better than the next for increasing nitric oxide in the body, right? Arginine or any crazy form of Arginine does NOT increase nitric oxide in the body. So my question is what is the reason for putting in a product? I am curious.


"Collectively, the fact remains that no nutritional supplements marketed to increase NO have been shown in a controlled laboratory study involving human subjects to increase blood levels of NO." (Richard J. Bloomer, PhD, CSCS Assistant Professor Department of Health and Sport Sciences The University of Memphis)
 
poison

poison

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In this instance, I don't give a five, I get pumps fron it. Not a little, not placebo, real, and a lot.
 
djbombsquad

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Wow the placebo effect is so awesome.
 
Rodja

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I'm very, very high on empirical studies, but they are not the final say when it comes to the efficacy on any specific supplement/herb/drug. When it comes to this industry, the empirical data is very far behind especially when it comes to human studies.

Instead of overanalyzing every small detail, try something out for yourself. Even with all of the "proof" out there, the best thing to do is to try it for yourself. Not everything works across the board for everyone. It's a fact that there is variability amongst everyone.
 
djbombsquad

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Nitric oxide (NO∙), initially known as endothelium derived relaxing factor (EDRF), is biosynthesized within the body from L-arginine and oxygen by a variety of nitric oxide synthase enzymes (Col lier and Vallance, 1991). Nitric oxide is a gaseous chemical compound that acts as an important signaling molecule within the human body. Nitric oxide has been shown to decrease platelet and leukocyte adhesion, as well as to decrease the proliferation of smooth muscle cells. These effects are important in reference to decreasing clot and lesion formation within blood vessels, which may be associated with non-fatal and fatal outcomes (e.g., heart attack, stroke). Recent evidence also indicates that NO∙ may be involved in both glucose and fatty acid oxidation (Jobgen et al., 2006). Although, perhaps the most well studied effect of NO∙ is in facilitating vasodilation (opening of blood vessels).

The endothelium (inner layer) of blood vessels is involved in NO∙ production, which acts on vascular smooth muscle cells to promote vasodilation. For this reason alone, nitric oxide has received considerable attention over the past 20+ years from scientists. In fact, NO was recognized as “molecule of the year” by Science in 1992. Additionally, the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine was awarded in 1998 to Robert Furchgott, Louis Ignarro, and Ferid Murad for their discoveries related to NO∙. Over the past 5 years in particular, NO has received a great deal of attention from health and fitness enthusiasts, as well as from sports supplement companies who widely market products cl aiming to increase NO production. In this regard, the primary desired effect is the potential increase in blood flow.

It is evident that the majority of such products contain various forms of L-arginine as the chief ingredient. Unfortunately, as discussed below, this may not be appropriate when considering all variables know to affect the response to L-arginine treatment (e.g., dosage, route of administration, species studied). Equally important, although L-arginine is the precursor to NO∙ biosynthesis, it has been suggested that this amino acid is not the rate limiting component (Kurz and Harrison, 1997) and that nitric oxide synthase enzymes may be most important to NO∙ biosynthesis. Therefore, adding excess L-arginine may do little to promote increased NO∙ production, as most individuals already have adequate L-arginine available for NO∙ biosynthesis. What they may need is an increase in certain enzymes that appear to ultimately control NO∙ production. The supposed “effect” that individuals may experience when using many of the marketed products may be more dependent on the sugar contained within the product, as opposed to the L-arginine. This is because sugar intake results in an insulin spike, and insulin itself has been shown to yield a vasodilating effect (Giugliano et al., 1997; Steinberg et al., 1994).

Despite this, it is evident that dietary supplements marketed to increase NO∙ production are rampant within the supplement industry. In fact, a quick scan of many of the popular bodybuilding magazines indicates that in any given month there can be more than 30 pages of advertisements that focus solely on this particular class of supplements! As with many dietary supplements, the scientific evidence for effect for these products is virtually nonexistent. Of course, some of the chief ingredients found within some of these products may have been shown to result in a measurable increase in NO∙ or an increase in blood flow. But a careful review of the original investigations indicates that the dosing suggested by the manufacturer of the product is often FAR less than that used in the original investigation. More importantly, the route of administration is often different. That is, many original investigations using a given ingredient have used intravenous injection and not oral intake, as is being marketed by supplement companies. This is of particular importance, as L-arginine at an oral dosage of only 10 grams per day has been noted to have an unpleasant taste and in some cases result in gastric distress (Robinson et al., 2003). It has also been reported that oral intake of L-arginine of 20+ grams per day results in arginine absorption that is highly variable across subjects, and does not result in any significant increase in vasodilation (Adams et al., 1995; Chin-Dusting e t al., 1996), unlike findings from many studies involving intravenous injection. Other work involving direct comparisons between intravenous and oral intake of L-arginine agrees with these findings (Bode-Boger et al., 1998), indicating no effect of oral L-arginine intake on vasodilation, partly due the fact that oral L-arginine bioavailability is only ~68%. Hence, based on the available evidence, it seems unlikely that oral L-arginine intake will result in any improvement in blood flow. Lastly, some of the original investigations have used animals (typically rodents) as test subjects and not humans, or have involved experiments in vitro (i.e., outside of a living organism). Generalizations to humans cannot always be made from such studies. Collectively, the fact remains that no nutritional supplements marketed to increase NO∙ have been shown in a controlled laboratory study involving human subjects to increase blood levels of NO
 
thebigt

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one of my friends is a chemistry engineer, if i understand what he was trying to tell me arginine has a negative feedback loop. using large amounts or long term could actually hinder natural NO production. i was told that agmatine avoids this and is a much better way to go. i am going to be running 2 bottles of blue print soon and will be putting this to the test.
 
jaydollars

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Well studies or no studies it works for me, and the effect for me is very strong, especially when I add more to my pwo drink, so some supplements work for some people and some don't, everyone is different
 
djbombsquad

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How do you know its the arginine?

So what now? What could one do to achieve a better pump? Here are a few things that are NOT based on crap, lies, bogus ingredients, and deception. They are based on the truth

#1 Use creatine monohydrate or Conjugated Creatine. I only recommend Creapure or Con-Cret. Any other form is from China and could possible contain large amounts of creatinine.

#2 Take high GI carbs pre workout 1.5 hours before. This is an easy one but does have its drawbacks.

#3 Testosterone. Probably the most effective! Increase your testosterone levels one way or another and I guarantee you will get the best pumps of your life.

#4. Find a supplement that is actually PROVEN to increase Nitric Oxide. What???? Yes that is right, find an ingredient that actually DOES increase Nitric Oxide. I’m not talking about arginine. There is an ingredient that has been proven in studies to raise NO levels. The ingredient is called Glycine Propion yl-L-Carnitine (GPLC). Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine (GPLC) is a USP grade dietary ingredient which consists of a molecular bonded form of propionyl-L-carnitine and one of the carnitine precursor amino acids, glycine. Two recent studies have demonstrated an increase in blood levels of NOx with oral GPLC intake, at a daily dosage of 4.5 grams (Bloomer et al., 2007; in press). These findings agree with other recent work using PLC exclusively (Lofreddo et al., 2007) which demonstrated an increase in blood NOx in response to 6 grams per day of PLC given via intravenous infusion.

The first study to use GPLC involved previously sedentary men and women who were assigned to supervised aerobic exercise with or without treatment for eight weeks (Bloomer et al., in press). A significant increase in resting levels of blood NOx was noted for subjects receiving GPLC compared to placebo (in a double blind design). Subjects who received GPLC were also noted as having lower levels of lipid peroxidation, a measure of free radical mediated oxidation of lipids. This is important, as increased free radical production is associated with impaired NO bioavailability.

The second study to use GPLC involved resistance trained men who were assigned to GPLC and a placebo for four weeks each, with a two week washout period between each four week ph ase—also using a double blind design (Bloomer et al., 2007). At the end of each four week phase, resting blood samples were obtained, in addition to blood samples following static forearm exercise (used to induce a further increase in NO). Blood NOx was noted to be higher in response to the forearm exercise with GPLC compared to placebo, a finding that may have implications related to enhanced blood flow during acute bouts of exercise.

Need for Further Research

If a given oral dietary supplement is in fact capable of stimulating an increase in circulating NO(to date, GPLC is the only such ingredient reported in the scientific literature to do so), to observe a desired effect it must be assumed that 1) the increase in circulating NO will cause an increase in blood flow to working skeletal muscle, 2) the increase in blood flow will be associated with an increase in oxygen and nutrient delivery, and 3) the increase in oxygen and nutrient delivery will promote a) an increase in work capacity during exercise and b) enhanced recovery post exercise. Study pertaining to these variables in human subjects using this class of nutritional supplement is indeed in its infancy. Continued work over the next couple of years will hopefully provide new insight into addressing these interesting and important issues.

Practical Applications
It is well documented that NO acts in blood vessel dilation and improved blood flow. For athletes and fitness enthusiasts, this is essential because greater blood flow is associated with increased oxygen and nutrient delivery to skeletal muscle. This may be important both during the exercise bout (to aid in performance and to improve the muscle “pump”), as well as during the recovery period (to aid in nutrient delivery to help facilitate exercise recovery). In this way, products aimed at increasing NO may prove helpful. To date, GPLC is the only dietary ingredient reported to promote such an effect, which may be enhanced if consumed with carbohydrate rich meals, as insulin has been shown to promote vasodilation (Giugliano et al., 1997; Steinberg et al., 1994) and to enhance carnitine retention (Stephens et al., 2006; 2007), which may apply to GPLC (a novel form of carnitine). Continued research on this ingredient will provide additional information pertaining to the potential for enhanced blood flow, and subsequent enhanced performance and recovery associated with exercise.
 
thebigt

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Go buy nitrocharge, and dose 3gr twice daily on an empty stomach, and tell me then it doesn't increase pumps. Until then...
you are wasting your breath, bro.:frustrate
 
djbombsquad

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Actually I have before. I took it with there BA. I felt the BA but did not feel the pump other than my normal pump from nitrocharge and many other arginine products. When I am NOT exercising approximately 15 to 20% of the blood pump from the heart goes to my muscle. When I exercise, at peak, up to 80% of the blood goes to my muscle.
 
poison

poison

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Ok, great, you're physiology differs from mine. :confused:

In other news, Anabolic Pump does nothing for me.
 

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