DHEA a different outlook by Dinoiii

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    DHEA a different outlook by Dinoiii


    Just want to share something that was written by Dinoiii (3 parts).

    If this is old news to you, sorry for repost.


    DHEA is of NO use to the average non-aged male! PART I

    May 10, 2007

    Author痴 Note: We have had sincere discussions on DHEA use in the Post-cycle realm and otherwise over on DA in on-going debates but wanted to open this up over here. This post was therefore inspired by those interactionsmy thoughts are summarized in the opening conglomerate below though this will be a multi-part addition over here on bb.com to get them all copied in here. Some questions/comments/concerns from other board members have also been included for completion痴 sake to allow for an easier read.



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    Question: How would one dose DHEA at max does and what type of gains should be expected? How long can 1 run it? etc etc?

    dinoiii痴 retort:
    I thought I had time-warped back to the late 80痴/early 90痴.

    Hmmmmmm.I really can稚 believe people are using this outside of the anti-aging realm. For those that are trying to combat age-related decline, it has likely some benefit.

    Early research reports that muscle mass is NOT increased when adding DHEA supplements to compensate, however some small uncontrolled studies suggest otherwise. There may be some benefit in cases of adrenal insufficiency, but those too have been poorly controlled. I don稚 like too much supplemental DHEA myself - PERIOD.

    Based on data from studies in humans, DHEA may also increase blood sugar levels. In post-menopausal women, DHEA (1600 mg orally for 28 days alone) has been shown to cause INSULIN RESISTANCE and while this hasn稚 adequately been tested in regular test subjects, the blood-sugar raising properties alone disuade me from recommending it in conjunction with the post-menopausal data.

    Lab studies actually suggest that DHEA use may contribute to TaMOXIFEN RESISTANCE in breast cancer and one could easily extrapolate the same data for those that wonderfully execute suggestion that DHEA belongs in a PCT regime which it DOES NOTas I have said for yearsDHEA IS TOO FAR UPSTREAM.

    Bottom Linedinoiii does NOT think male bbers should use DHEA and in PCT:ACV, I actually suggested that I think DHEA should BE REMOVED FROM THE MARKET and it is unfortunate it didn稚 get banned in 2004.

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news all the time though, for real.

    D_
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    Question: Then how do you explain this?
    Patent summary abstract:
    Google Patents

    Patent description:
    Google Patents

    DHEA + 6-OXO is already patented and proven to increase T and decrease E.

    dinoiii痴 retort:
    There is a reason the patents were issued in the late 80s and 90s and nothing has really gone to market in the pharmaceutic world, even clinical trial.

    Just getting a patent issued certainly doesn稚 mean anything is 菟roven - this is a complete pet peeve of mine, the 菟roven in science thing. Here SERMs + DHEA have actually shown the contrary and 6-oxo in and of itself is partly pro-estrogenic.
    It痴 something about trading abstracts with one another on bb forums - oh well, I will oblige:
    Am J Surg. 2003 May;185(5):411-5.
    The effect of high dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels on tamoxifen blockade and breast cancer progression.Calhoun K, Pommier R, Cheek J, Fletcher W, Toth-Fejel S.
    Oregon Health & Science University, Division of Surgical Oncology, 3181 SW Sam Jackson Park Rd. L223A, Portland, OR 97201, USA.

    BACKGROUND: We investigated the stimulatory potential of dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) on tamoxifen-treated cells and assessed its effect on cancer progression in the adjuvant setting. METHODS: Mean serial serum levels of sex hormones from 44 patients receiving tamoxifen were correlated with follow-up status. T-47D (ER+/PR+) and HCC1937 (ER-/PR-) breast cancer cells were pretreated with 100 microM anastrozole, with or without tamoxifen, and stimulated with 22.8 microM DHEA-S. Rapid colorimetric assays allowed calculation of growth percent change. RESULTS: Clinically, development of metastatic disease correlated only with > or =90 microg/dL DHEA-S (P = 0.005). In vitro, T-47D cells stimulated with DHEA-S after anastrozole showed 35% increased growth. Addition of 0.01 nM tamoxifen demonstrated -7% inhibition. Increasing the DHEA-S/tamoxifen ratio reversed suppression to +25%. CONCLUSIONS: DHEA-S > or =90 microg/dL is a risk factor for recurrence in the adjuvant setting. In vitro, although tamoxifen inhibits cell growth at high doses it can be circumvented by DHEA-S. These results indicate that DHEA-S contributes to tamoxifen resistance and disease progression.

    PMID: 12727558 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Well, tamoxifen resistance + support of upstream ability of DHEA converting to estrogen and tumor progression in ER (+) breast cancer.

    1: Arch Surg. 2003 Aug;138(8):879-83. Links
    Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate causes proliferation of estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer cells despite treatment with fulvestrant.Calhoun KE, Pommier RF, Muller P, Fletcher WS, Toth-Fejel S.
    Department of General Surgery, Oregon Health and Sciences University, Portland, OR 97201, USA.

    HYPOTHESIS: Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) causes a proliferation of estrogen receptor (ER)-positive breast cancer cells, even with tamoxifen citrate blockade. The ER antagonist ICI 182780 (fulvestrant) will more effectively stop the proliferative effect of DHEA-S on breast cancer cells. DESIGN: Examination of in vitro breast cancer cell growth in the presence of fulvestrant and DHEA-S. SETTING: Surgical oncology research laboratory. INTERVENTIONS: The ER-positive and ER-negative breast cancer cells were pretreated with fulvestrant and stimulated with 900 microg/dL (22.8 micromol/L) of DHEA-S. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Assays using 3-(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)-2,5-diphenyltet
    razolium bromide, thiazolyl blue, were performed on the third, fifth, and seventh days poststimulation and permitted the calculation of growth percent change. RESULTS: The ER-positive and progesterone receptor-positive cells demonstrated universal proliferation of 107% by day 7 when treated with fulvestrant, regardless of the dose. The ER-negative and progesterone receptor-negative cells demonstrated growth inhibition. CONCLUSIONS: The DHEA-S circumvented fulvestrant inhibition and caused ER-positive breast cancer cell growth.
    Oh .and yes, I understand these were breast cancer cellsnot what I am describing here - first is the ludicrousy of putting abstracts on message boards to support a plight, but these two DO show a couple of thingsthe overriding breast specificity of Estrogen in light of Tamox (which should be a select antagonist at the breast) when putting DHEA up to the charge AND offers further support for estrogen increases with DHEA administration.
    D_
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    Please stay tuned for the conclusion of these debates.they get BETTER!!!
    D_

    DHEA is of NO use to the average non-aged male! Part II

    May 22, 2007
    Author痴 Note: I am going to do this a tad out of order from its original context to offer a Q&A to follow. Remember that this was in response to the significant outcry of DHEA users everywhere - sucks to figure in realization, and I understand this. It痴 usually imperative to not kill the messenger as the infamous 鍍hey would like you to believelet痴 make them proud on this one, shall we?
    Let痴 review the literature rather than get into abstract wars becuase that is what other forums do and I would encourage us to be different for a moment.
    Reviewing the literature on what we have already discussed and what you and I seem to agree on:

    [1] DHEA taken as a supplement gets converted to androgens and estrogens in a gender-specific way.

    a. women: increase androgens, NO sig. increase estrogens
    b. men: increase estrogens, NO sig. increase androgens (essentially the opposite)

    [2] Erectile dysfunction research: some people are speculated to have low DHEA and the sulfate ester (DHEA-S) levels to begin and thereby contributing to erectile dysfunction. If there is organic rationale (i.e. - low DHEA to begin), there is some evidence to support improvement (but it will only make the 2-minute man, say the 3-minute wonderis this great considering other evidence?)

    Other erectile dysfunction populations have shown mixed review:
    a. ED + Hypertensive: some benefit
    b. ED + Diabetes: NO benefit
    c. ED + Normal DHEA levels: NO benefit from preliminaries

    * in NONE of the ED cases did Testosterone increase!!! (and this is despite DHEA administration and in some instances as described marginal difference in ED positive exchange)

    [3] Side effects are sometimes not that great from tox studies for something that may give us marginal benefit (say increased wood or what have you):

    a. insomnia
    b. hepatic dysfunction (can we say NO to those using C17 alkylated; and then combine it with tamox, another hepatotoxicGood God, what are 殿uthorities thinking?)
    c. insulin resistance (yeah this is great for those seeking body comp change; more in a minute)
    d. hair loss
    e. hypertension
    f. abdominal pain (though suggested in case report, the rationale was left at spontaneous association and could not be cause-effect linked, but MUST be noted when talking completion痴 sake)
    g. mania - 3 cases to date for people with no history of mania or bipolar
    h. women - duh? androgenic sides have been reported

    [4] Research mixed on cancer growth (some pro-cancer, one study has yielded regression of tumor, but admittedly may be specific to the tumor type and these are non-ER(+) tumors).

    [5] DHEA continues to lower HDL levels AND increases levels of macro****e foam cells contributing to the atherosclerotic environment (NOT NEEDED in a time of recovery like PCT).

    [6] Insulin Reistance is well-documented and I would be hard-press to suggest this good for anyone looking for optimal body comp. Could you imagine coming away from a cycle and making yourself potentially insulin-resistant? I wouldn稚 recommend anyone in their right mind trying it to be honest.

    [7] Now, I want to make a comment on how it can be conceived 堵ood for some steroidal AIs. DHEA inhibits cytochrome P450 3A4, which could theoretically heighten the effect of the AI through this mechanismhowever, I MUST note that we only have documentation for this mechanism with concurrent use of triazolam, so it is suspect whether this would work, however given all the other effects and namely the increases in estrogensI am inclined to suggest that you still NOT use it.

    DHEA stinks and always has - I think I have offered up adequate debate, but hey I will offer you attempt to combat my rationaleand I eagerly await continued discussion. Until next time

    D_

    DHEA is of NO use to the average non-aged male! Part III

    May 31, 2007

    ABSTRACT AFFIRMATION THE OPENING SET
    Author痴 Note: With the release of the first couple parts to this series, young males everywhere have joined one of two groups those who triumphantly allow their DHEA to reach their garbage can or their granddads or, alternatively, the group that has united against me and sent death threats while calling my mother names.

    In any event, the truth hurts and DHEA remains worthless for the non-aged male when the dust settles. We will further explore this topic in a bit more depth citing specific research examples of DHEAs failure during times males like to employ this because the local internet 堵uru told 粗m so!


    One research group combined the most commonly employed PCT anti-estrogen (SERM), tamoxifen in combination with DHEA administration to find that the DHEA negated effects of the tamoxifen. My newfound hate-driven brethren who are aligning themselves as pro-DHEA are quick to point out that tamoxifen is pro-estrogenic in certain places while antagonistic in others and these studies were done in females and breast cancer patients to boot (yes, I have read the hate mail affectionately). Well, I can稚 blame them for trying.


    See, the point is that this suggests negating effects of a purported anti-estrogen at the level of the ER in breast tissue. This contradicts it and while no you cannot suggest that breast cancer equals gyno, negation of effects at what we are trying to prevent gyno with doesn稚 make much sense to me, but alas I digress.


    Without further adieu in the world where everyone loves abstracts


    [1] Am J Surg. 2003 May;185(5):411-5.

    The effect of high dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate levels on tamoxifen blockade and breast cancer progression.
    Calhoun K, Pommier R, Cheek J, Fletcher W, Toth-Fejel S.
    Oregon Health & Science University, Division of Surgical Oncology, 3181 SW Sam Jackson Park Rd. L223A, Portland, OR 97201, USA.



    BACKGROUND: We investigated the stimulatory potential of dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) on tamoxifen-treated cells and assessed its effect on cancer progression in the adjuvant setting. METHODS: Mean serial serum levels of sex hormones from 44 patients receiving tamoxifen were correlated with follow-up status. T-47D (ER+/PR+) and HCC1937 (ER-/PR-) breast cancer cells were pretreated with 100 microM anastrozole, with or without tamoxifen, and stimulated with 22.8 microM DHEA-S. Rapid colorimetric assays allowed calculation of growth percent change. RESULTS: Clinically, development of metastatic disease correlated only with > or =90 microg/dL DHEA-S (P = 0.005). In vitro, T-47D cells stimulated with DHEA-S after anastrozole showed 35% increased growth. Addition of 0.01 nM tamoxifen demonstrated -7% inhibition. Increasing the DHEA-S/tamoxifen ratio reversed suppression to +25%. CONCLUSIONS: DHEA-S > or =90 microg/dL is a risk factor for recurrence in the adjuvant setting. In vitro, although tamoxifen inhibits cell growth at high doses it can be circumvented by DHEA-S. These results indicate that DHEA-S contributes to tamoxifen resistance and disease progression.

    PMID: 12727558 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    [2] Arch Surg. 2003 Aug;138(8):879-83.


    Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate causes proliferation of estrogen receptor-positive breast cancer cells despite treatment with fulvestrant.
    Calhoun KE, Pommier RF, Muller P, Fletcher WS, Toth-Fejel S.
    Department of General Surgery, Oregon Health and Sciences University, Portland, OR 97201, USA.

    HYPOTHESIS: Dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) causes a proliferation of estrogen receptor (ER)-positive breast cancer cells, even with tamoxifen citrate blockade. The ER antagonist ICI 182780 (fulvestrant) will more effectively stop the proliferative effect of DHEA-S on breast cancer cells. DESIGN: Examination of in vitro breast cancer cell growth in the presence of fulvestrant and DHEA-S. SETTING: Surgical oncology research laboratory. INTERVENTIONS: The ER-positive and ER-negative breast cancer cells were pretreated with fulvestrant and stimulated with 900 microg/dL (22.8 micromol/L) of DHEA-S. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Assays using 3-(4,5-dimethylthiazol-2-yl)-2,5-diphenyltet
    razolium bromide, thiazolyl blue, were performed on the third, fifth, and seventh days poststimulation and permitted the calculation of growth percent change. RESULTS: The ER-positive and progesterone receptor-positive cells demonstrated universal proliferation of 107% by day 7 when treated with fulvestrant, regardless of the dose. The ER-negative and progesterone receptor-negative cells demonstrated growth inhibition. CONCLUSIONS: The DHEA-S circumvented fulvestrant inhibition and caused ER-positive breast cancer cell growth.



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    Until Next time.


    D_

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    this is posted in the wrong section, and belongs in the anabolic ph/ps section. dhea is a pro hormone.

    anyways, aside from most of the studies posted being done on women, dhea still is not crap. dont know if you know it or not, but studies also showed andro was crap, and did not work as claimed.

    but we know otherwise.

    anyhow, dhea in my opinion, should be classed as a "wet" ph, due to it most likely converting into estrogen, or ending up there eventually somehow.

    this also can be a useful ph to add into cycles to help give a boost to the immune system, and w/e other benifits one can recieve from estrogen.

    shoud it be used as a stand alone? I dont think so.

    but what about the isomers of dhea? the 1 isomer, the 4 isomer, the 19nor isomer? what about these as additions to cycles? well, seems like they come from pigs, rats, and humans (19nor). and users seem to think they work great by themselves.

    using dhea in pct, I dont think thats a good idea, but for a man on cycle with dry compounds, it could be benificial in a number of ways.

    take that to the pro hormone forum.
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    something that can be found at krogers and walgreens i wouldn't consider to be prohormone...not in bb sense at least.

    is it hormonal? yes, but so is a lot of other stuff that can be found in the medicine aisle of a supermarket when used/consumed in certain quantities.

    so we shouldn't even discuss form, 6oxo, all AI's..coz they're pro -hormonal too

    plus dhea is not fully proven to be pro-hormonal...as is the discussion in question
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    actually this seems to belong in the supplement article section... but im glad u posted it here for me to read... thanks...
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    subbed...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    this is posted in the wrong section, and belongs in the anabolic ph/ps section. dhea is a pro hormone.

    anyways, aside from most of the studies posted being done on women, dhea still is not crap. dont know if you know it or not, but studies also showed andro was crap, and did not work as claimed.

    but we know otherwise.

    anyhow, dhea in my opinion, should be classed as a "wet" ph, due to it most likely converting into estrogen, or ending up there eventually somehow.

    this also can be a useful ph to add into cycles to help give a boost to the immune system, and w/e other benifits one can recieve from estrogen.

    shoud it be used as a stand alone? I dont think so.

    but what about the isomers of dhea? the 1 isomer, the 4 isomer, the 19nor isomer? what about these as additions to cycles? well, seems like they come from pigs, rats, and humans (19nor). and users seem to think they work great by themselves.

    using dhea in pct, I dont think thats a good idea, but for a man on cycle with dry compounds, it could be benificial in a number of ways.

    take that to the pro hormone forum.
    .............


    DHEA being classified as a prohormone is a true by definition, but that's where the comparison's end. It's 2 metabolic steps from testosterone and so many different things can happen that a very low percent converts to anabolics. Hence why 15 years later the FDA hasn't shut it down. And no one has "gotten huge" off of DHEA. It belongs here and not in PH forum because: No one takes it as PH cycle!
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    Dinoiii is one of the great minds of the world, no doubt. I've long discoursed DHEA use; products that contain it seem to bother me more so than some gear would.
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    I concur with Dinoii although I won't go so far as to want DHEA banned. I get a massive estrogen conversion even with 25mg per day.
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    AGREE 100% with this article, DHEA has no place in PCT nor in younger men who TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES.
    doing my own thang!
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    In the first study regarding Tamox resistance, 1600mg is a pretty hefty dose. I can't see anyone dosing that high in pct.

    Also note that I've run 6oxo standalone AND 6oxo/DHEA stack. I've had no negative repurcussions due to the DHEA, as in no change in my SD enduced lump to suggest estrogenic conversion in the 100-200mg range. At the same time, I saw absolutely no difference is positive effect when I added the DHEA either.

    I'm not personally in the emotional "ban it" crowd. I say if you have negative effects from it, just don't take it. Since I didn't have any positive response due to DHEA supplementation, I won't take it again just like the long list of other over hyped supps with pretty labels that I won't buy again LOL
  

  
 

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