Glutamine or BCAA Powder?

AnthonyIOSOS

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What do you all think is more important? Glutamine or BCAA Powder?

Which one is most important and how much should you be taking? If you had a choice which would you opted out?
 
TheDarkHalf

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I feel that there is a big debate surrounding glutamine....there is data that shows that it is benefical and data that shows it does nothing for you. Do your research and make a decision.

How much you should be taking is strictly individual - however I find that there is nothing wrong with taking an abundance of both.

A lot of BCAA and EAA (BCAAs are a subgroup of EAAs) powders generally have glutamine in them.
 

BurghHardcore

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Agreed, BCAA definetely. But....Glutamine is so cheap now that it wouldn't hurt to pick some up as well. That's up to you. I take 5-10g a night before bed with my ZMK and I love it. Also take some pre-morning cardio, I feel it helps. Whether it TRULY does or not is unknown, but like I said, it's cheap so I buy it.
 
AnthonyIOSOS

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Agreed, BCAA definetely. But....Glutamine is so cheap now that it wouldn't hurt to pick some up as well. That's up to you. I take 5-10g a night before bed with my ZMK and I love it. Also take some pre-morning cardio, I feel it helps. Whether it TRULY does or not is unknown, but like I said, it's cheap so I buy it.
Before bed? That is something for me to think about. Right now I only eat cottage cheese w/ fish oil before bed. I can see this being very beneficial for repairing the muscles while sleeping.
 

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Definately a BCAA powder. The recomended dosing is on the label, usually according to your weight.

Edit: Had to double check to be sure before I said anything but, yes AXcell does also contain L-Glutamine.
 
Flaw

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BCAA's > Glutamine
 
jakellpet

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BCAAs - but glutamine has it's place. Dont pay big bucks for it though
 
John Smeton

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if you take in 1.5 grams protein peer day with intense trainign no need for bcaas

of course bcaa's are useful and have theere benefits.

if you are recovering properly enough, not overtraining, no need for glutamine

I used glutamine last night because of not much sleep, feeling run down..glutamine is God-send if you are run down!
 
LuckyKid57

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BCAA's I would say as well.

When you look at what you are getting, a direct source of leucine, isoleucine, and valine... it's truly priceless. Leucine alone (as stated by so many supplement companies these days) is that "anabolic trigger." It is such a fantastic amino in it's own right for ALL goals. Cutting, bulking... either way your good. Different nutrition and diet plans? Well, it will totally help on a classic 40/40/20, but it will also help shuttle you into ketosis much more quicly (being ketogenic in nature). Yes, iso and valine have their place... I am focusing on leucine here because of the emphasis in the industry, not to mention the new standard is a 4:1:1 ratio of leuc:iso:val.

I have to say, however, that when I do supplement glutamine with my BCAA products for pre/intra/post WO, I do feel a difference. Placebo or not, as a previous poster stated, glutamine is cheap enough to add into it.

As far as doseage is concerned, with BCAA's I just use them all day long. I would rather have a surplus of them in my body throughout the day and excrete some than be deficient. As for glutamine I am taking in 15-20g a day, depending on if I lift or not. Morning, afternoon, before sleep... or morning, pre-wo, post-wo, before sleep. Just sip on BCAA's all day long. Nice cheap product is AI's RecoverPro... a phenomenal value for the leucine alone. Roughly 160 servings (4:1:1).

Sorry for the lengthy response, lol. Bottom line is if you are only able to get one, BCAA's... but since they are both available for so cheap (Nutraplanet Glutamine in bulk), there is no reason to not have both as staples in your supplement regime.

Lucky
 
LuckyKid57

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if you take in 1.5 grams protein peer day with intense trainign no need for bcaas

of course bcaa's are useful and have theere benefits.

if you are recovering properly enough, not overtraining, no need for glutamine

I used glutamine last night because of not much sleep, feeling run down..glutamine is God-send if you are run down!
It is true that you will derive BCAA's through protein consumption... however... there is one word we need to concentrate on here. "Derive."

In order for your body to benefit from the BCAA's in protein, they must be digested and synthesized. I am in no way trying to start a beef here, but I do find it necessary to point out this important information.

Protein will take you very far, and being a builder, consuming enough is VITAL. Where BCAA's really shine (in my opinion) is pre/intra/post training. You need INSTANT nutrients. BCAA's can provide this when protein will not. As far as my supplementing BCAA's during the rest of the day... again I find after a fasted state and quick dose of 4:1:1 will jumpstart the anabolic process. As far as me taking them at all over times of the day, well... maybe I am just being paranoid, but I feel I might as well be safe than sorry.
 
gibsonj4

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BCAAs if ur cutting or on restricted diet not if your bulking.

Still good to take. Surplus never hurts. x2 on Glutamine being taken when run down.
 
fightbackhxc

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Before bed? That is something for me to think about. Right now I only eat cottage cheese w/ fish oil before bed. I can see this being very beneficial for repairing the muscles while sleeping.
Yes, before bed. In college Glutamine along with my old school Z-Mass PM really helped me get some quality sleep in a scorching hot/freezing cold dorm room. With a hectic schedule, diet that got poor at times, a fair share of partying, and working out, I feel the addition of Glutamine helped A LOT. Like a previous poster said, when you're run down it helps that much more. I think it is a supplement that had it's time in the spotlight, but has since been overshadowed by more "flashy" supplements, and has sort of fallen by the wayside. It's still great IMO, and the price has dropped considerably since those days. 500g is only $15.00 at nutraplanet.

I've NEVER taken it with food though. No real reason, it just so happens that the times I take it are times that I do not eat. Glutamine along w/ ZMA I think is an overlooked combo as a sleep aid. If you do try this combo remember to eat your cottage cheese and fish oils about 45min. to an hour before you take the ZMA, as to not interfere with the absorption of the ZMA.
 
John Smeton

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Yes, before bed. In college Glutamine along with my old school Z-Mass PM really helped me get some quality sleep in a scorching hot/freezing cold dorm room. With a hectic schedule, diet that got poor at times, a fair share of partying, and working out, I feel the addition of Glutamine helped A LOT. Like a previous poster said, when you're run down it helps that much more. I think it is a supplement that had it's time in the spotlight, but has since been overshadowed by more "flashy" supplements, and has sort of fallen by the wayside. It's still great IMO, and the price has dropped considerably since those days. 500g is only $15.00 at nutraplanet.

I've NEVER taken it with food though. No real reason, it just so happens that the times I take it are times that I do not eat. Glutamine along w/ ZMA I think is an overlooked combo as a sleep aid. If you do try this combo remember to eat your cottage cheese and fish oils about 45min. to an hour before you take the ZMA, as to not interfere with the absorption of the ZMA.
yes it is good for sleep. just like gaba it increases gh levels for a short time which is why you feel a bit tired after taking glutamine
 
AnthonyIOSOS

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Thats for all the feedback. Def. some valuable information.
 
Flaw

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if you take in 1.5 grams protein peer day with intense trainign no need for bcaas

of course bcaa's are useful and have theere benefits.

if you are recovering properly enough, not overtraining, no need for glutamine

I used glutamine last night because of not much sleep, feeling run down..glutamine is God-send if you are run down!
I agree with every word. Glutamine is very effective if your body is really worn down. I believe ones that notice the most difference from glutamine are endurance runners. But of course if your diet is where it's suppost to be you wouldn't notice it's effects.
 
LuckyKid57

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There is a lot of good information on this thread, and once again, everything works subjectively to the individual. While I still believe BCAA supplementation "trumps" (if you will) glutamine supplementation, I do suggest not overlooking the benefits of glutamine supplementation as well (even if nutrition is in check).

Glutamine should, ideally, help the athlete in any phase of nutrition (dieting, bulking, recomp). The body (overall, not just in the muscle cells) needs glutamine for proper immune function. By supplementing with glutamine, it's possible to maintain the levels within the muscle cell and thus reduce tissue breakdown and and improve the metabolization of protein int he cell. Obviously, quite important to us.

Is all of this information conclusive? Well, studies are showing that yes, your body will be depleted of glutamine after a training session. Fact of the matter is, it is easy to cover a lot of bases by supplementing with glutamine, whether in a bulking/cutting/recomp phase. It's "questionable" usefulness seems to be eclipsed by the potential benefits (especially at such a cheap price nowadays).

Take them both.

Lucky!
 
nemo

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Ever feel like you're just late to the party? I mean,.. what can I add that hasn't been said already?!?!
 
B5150

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thanks man. I appreciate the compliments

glutamine is a pretty big rip. Almost all of the studies done on glutamine showing any positive benefits were done where glutamine was injected directly into the bloodstream; thus bypassing digestion. If you orally ingest glutamine, most of it gets degraded by the small intestine (it is the main fuel for the mucosal cells) to alanine and sent to the liver. You need a basal amount of glutamine for gut health and proper digestion in general but supplementing with it is certainly not nessecary unless you have an inflammatory bowel disease like Crohn's or Celiac's.
...
 
B5150

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interesting on Glutamine; I was told anything under 5g gets wasted so for benefits >5g; personally i take for the immune system at least from what i have read. I am 57 right now and maybe the age makes a big difference. I'll take a little more than 5g am then same post workout and repeat at bedtime. I remember missing a week or so and got the flu or the start of one and hopped back on Glutamine and got back to normal; this somehow has stood out for me. I still plan on taking it but after your great posts will look closer and see feedback. Much appreciated.

actually there is some data to suggest glutamine helps immune function in chronically diseased individuals but actually SUPRESSES immune function in healthy individuals.

-layne
...
 
LuckyKid57

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B5, very interesting information! Something I will continue my reading on.
 
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Glutamine Supplementation
By David Tolson

L-glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid in the body and also the most abundant amino acid the bloodstream. Originally considered to be nonessential because it can be readily synthesized by the enzyme glutamine synthetase, it has been established that glutamine can become essential under states of severe illness or injury, in which glutamine stores can become depleted [7, 12]. Glutamine is a precursor to glucose and many peptides, proteins, and nucleotides, and functions as an energy substrate for most cells [1, 8, 12]. Some areas where glutamine plays particularly important roles are the brain, immune system, skeletal muscle, and GI tract. In the immune system, glutamine is used as a metabolic fuel by fibroblasts, lymphocytes, and macro****es, and is also used for nucleotide synthesis. Skeletal muscle is the primary storage site for glutamine, and also the primary source of glutamine for other tissues. The GI tract uses glutamine as a fuel source, and uses more glutamine than any other area of the body.

The primary focus of research on the utility of supplemental L-glutamine has focused on situations of severe metabolic stress [1]. Glutamine has been researched in a wide variety of illnesses, including cancer, heart disease, and AIDS [3, 6]. Multiple meta-analyses have found that glutamine has many beneficial effects in critically ill patients, and glutamine may reduce mortality rates in long-term Intensive Care Unit patients by as much as 20% [1, 2]. Glutamine functions through multiple mechanisms of action, such as improving gastrointestinal tract health and immune health, acting as a precursor to glutathione, and decreasing ammonia buildup in the liver [1]. Along with HMB and arginine, glutamine helps decrease lean tissue wasting in cancer and AIDS patients, and glutamine prevents muscle protein breakdown from dexamethasone, a synthetic glucocortcoid [6, 11]. It is because of these benefits in catabolic states that it is postulated that glutamine supplementation would be beneficial for those engaged in intense exercise, an issue which is quite controversial.

It has been found in many studies that prolonged, exhaustive exercise causes a decrease in plasma glutamine levels. However, even after running a marathon, glutamine levels are only low for a period of 6-9 hours [9]. One study examined the glutamine levels in various types of athletes and found that some athletes, such as powerlifters, had particularly low plasma glutamine [9]. Overtraining has also been associated with a larger decrease in glutamine levels [9, 16]. In turn, it has been proposed that this decline can have a variety of negative effects that may be corrected with supplemental glutamine. Some of the proposed benefits of glutamine supplementation for athletes include increased immune function, increased protein synthesis, and increased rate of glycogen synthesis.

A central issue in the debate over whether glutamine supplements are beneficial is whether or not they actually increase levels of glutamine in the bloodstream. Most of the studies in states of critical illness utilize IV glutamine, and are therefore inapplicable. When glutamine is orally administered, a significant portion of it is taken up by the gut, where it is primarily oxidized, but also used to form glucose and for other purposes [22]. After ingestion of L-glutamine, about 50-75% of it is used by the gut depending on circumstances [9, 13, 14]. The amount that is extracted by the gut appears to be inversely correlated with dose – as more glutamine is administered, relatively less is taken up by the gut [14]. Despite the amount that doesn't make it to the bloodstream, many studies have found that orally administered L-glutamine still significantly raises plasma glutamine levels. For example, one study found that 5 g of orally administered glutamine doubled plasma glutamine within 30 minutes in healthy humans [16]. On the other hand, protein-bound glutamine (such as glutamine from casein or carob protein) has failed to significantly increase plasma glutamine in both human and animal studies where free L-glutamine was effective [11, 20]. When this information is put together, it would seem a high dose (at least 5-10 g) of free-form L-glutamine is the most effective way to increase levels of glutamine in the bloodstream.

Although L-glutamine supplements can significantly increase plasma glutamine, this does not necessarily equate to an increase in exercise performance or recovery ability. Multiple studies have been done, and none have yet shown that glutamine significantly improves exercise performance. In one study, 31 subjects were administered ~45 g of glutamine or placebo (maltodextrin) daily for six weeks along with resistance training. Compared to the placebo group, the glutamine group had slight improvements in their one rep maximum for squat and bench press and knee extension peak torque, as well as increased lean tissue mass and decreased markers of protein breakdown, but none of the differences were statistically significant [18]. Another study found that acute ingestion of glutamine did not improve weightlifting performance [21], but only six subjects were used, and given that the proposed mechanisms of action for glutamine are recovery-related, one would not expect a difference after acute ingestion in the first place. It seems that if glutamine does make a difference in exercise performance, it is a small one, especially at practical doses.

Beyond the studies that directly assess performance, there are also a number of studies on the effects glutamine has on other variables. Some researchers argue that the fall in glutamine levels after exhausting exercise may be related to suppression of the immune system. One investigation of 14 studies found that the self-reported incidence of illness in marathon runners was 32% lower in subjects who had consumed glutamine [9]. However, the mechanism for this is unknown, as most studies have found that glutamine fails to effect exercise-related changes in immune parameters [7, 9, 15]. Two studies have found that glutamine slightly blunts the postexercise increase in circulating neutrophils, but it is unknown whether this is clinically significant [9, 15]. One study also found that among certain marathon runners, glutamine speeded the restoration of circulating lymphocytes [9]. The differences in findings is probably related to differences in study design. It could be that glutamine does not significantly alter the magnitude of postexercise immune changes, but does speed the rate of recovery, especially in the case of extremely taxing exercise such as marathon running.

Another area in which glutamine has been explored is glycogen resynthesis. In one study, glutamine increased postexercise muscle glycogen concentration compared to alanine plus glycine providing an equal amount of calories. It has been argued that glutamine increases the activity of hepatic glycogen synthase, based on in vitro studies [5]. However, it could also be that glutamine is more readily converted to glucose than other amino acids. Either way, carbohydrates are still about three times as effective at promoting glycogen synthesis [19], and when glutamine was added to a glucose polymer drink it did not further promote muscle glycogen storage, although it appeared to increase liver glycogen storage [5]. Another study found glutamine alone did not effect glycogen resynthesis after glycogen depleting exercise [18], so the effect of glutamine in this area is once again controversial.

A final contention made by glutamine advocates is that it increases protein synthesis. This is based primarily on in vitro experiments, which have found that glutamine stimulates protein synthesis and inhibits protein breakdown [14]. However, in vivo, it appears that supplemental L-glutamine does not affect protein synthesis or increase glutamine levels in muscle tissue in healthy humans, even after IV administration [14, 17]. Increased glutamine availability does increase glutamine flux in muscle tissue (i.e., both uptake and outflow are increased but tissue levels are not changed), but this may limit transport mechanisms for other amino acids [17]. These studies do not rule out the potential for a small effect on protein synthesis of supplemental L-glutamine combined with an exercise program, but do indicate that it is not likely to make a significant difference.

Finally, there are a number of facts that can make glutamine supplementation less appealing. To maintain continually elevated levels of glutamine, one would have to supplement at least every two hours [16]. Glutamine administration also inhibits de novo synthesis of the amino acid in humans, which may make long-term supplementation less effective [20]. In healthy individuals, supplemental glutamine may decrease glutathione levels in some tissues by causing negative feedback [10]. Also, glutamine decreases vascular nitric oxide (NO) production [4]. There is also some concern that the metabolic by-products of glutamine may be toxic in large amounts [18]. However, there have been few reports of adverse events in clinical trials, even with large amounts of glutamine [1, 18].

In conclusion, few studies have demonstrated any sort of conclusive benefit from L-glutamine supplementation in athletes, although the existing evidence does support a small benefit. The most promising effect is a reduced incidence of infection after exhausting exercise, and in this case 5-10 g preworkout and/or postworkout may be effective. It may be especially useful during times of overtraining or high stress, such as on a diet, but this is only in theory. There is little evidence for a direct anabolic or performance enhancing effect of glutamine.

1. Curr Opin Crit Care. 2003 Aug;9(4):279-85. Glutamine and acute illness. Wernerman J.

2. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2003 Mar;6(2):217-22. Role of L-glutamine in critical illness: new insights. Kelly D, Wischmeyer PE.

3. Nutrition. 2002 Feb;18(2):123-6. Is glutamine beneficial in ischemic heart disease? Khogali SE, Pringle SD, Weryk BV, Rennie MJ.

4. Clin Nutr. 1998 Feb;17(1):11-4. Dietary glutamine supplementation reduces plasma nitrate levels in rats. Houdijk AP, Visser JJ, Rijnsburger ER, Teerlink T, van Leeuwen PA.

5. J Appl Physiol. 1999 Jun;86(6):1770-7. Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise. Bowtell JL, Gelly K, Jackman ML, Patel A, Simeoni M, Rennie MJ.

6. Am J Surg. 2002 Apr;183(4):471-9. Reversal of cancer-related wasting using oral supplementation with a combination of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate, arginine, and glutamine. May PE, Barber A, D'Olimpio JT, Hourihane A, Abumrad NN.

7. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2002 Jan;5(1):69-75. Glutamine: clinical applications and mechanisms of action. Neu J, DeMarco V, Li N.

8. Int J Biochem Cell Biol. 2002 May;34(5):439-58. Glutamine and its relationship with intracellular redox status, oxidative stress and cell proliferation/death. Mates JM, Perez-Gomez C, Nunez de Castro I, Asenjo M, Marquez J.

9. Nutrition. 2002 May;18(5):371-5. Can glutamine modify the apparent immunodepression observed after prolonged, exhaustive exercise? Castell LM.

10. Nutrition. 2002 May;18(5):367-70. Impact of oral L-glutamine on glutathione, glutamine, and glutamate blood levels in volunteers. Valencia E, Marin A, Hardy G.

11. Nutrition. 2001 Jan;17(1):35-40. Effect of glutamine supplementation of the diet on tissue protein synthesis rate of glucocorticoid-treated rats. Boza JJ, Turini M, Moennoz D, Montigon F, Vuichoud J, Gueissaz N, Gremaud G, Pouteau E, Piguet-Welsch C, Finot PA, Ballevre O.

12. Altern Med Rev. 1999 Aug;4(4):239-48. Therapeutic considerations of L-glutamine: a review of the literature. Miller AL.

13. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Apr;280(4):E669-75. Glutamine supplementation promotes anaplerosis but not oxidative energy delivery in human skeletal muscle. Bruce M, Constantin-Teodosiu D, Greenhaff PL, Boobis LH, Williams C, Bowtell JL.

14. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E323-33. Whole body and skeletal muscle glutamine metabolism in healthy subjects. Mittendorfer B, Volpi E, Wolfe RR.

15. Am J Physiol Cell Physiol. 2001 Oct;281(4):C1259-65. Effect of glutamine supplementation on exercise-induced changes in lymphocyte function. Krzywkowski K, Petersen EW, Ostrowski K, Kristensen JH, Boza J, Pedersen BK.

16. Amino Acids. 2001;20(1):49-61. The relation between glutamine and the immunodepression observed in exercise. Castell LM, Newsholme EA.

17. Clin Physiol. 2001 Jul;21(4):478-89. The effect of glutamine on protein balance and amino acid flux across arm and leg tissues in healthy volunteers. Svanberg E, Moller-Loswick AC, Matthews DE, Korner U, Lundholm K.

18. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Dec;86(2):142-9. Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

19. J Nutr. 2001 Sep;131(9 Suppl):2488S-90S; discussion 2496S-7S. Interaction between glutamine availability and metabolism of glycogen, tricarboxylic acid cycle intermediates and glutathione. Rennie MJ, Bowtell JL, Bruce M, Khogali SE.

19. J Nutr. 2001 Sep;131(9 Suppl):2556S-61S. Assessment of the safety of glutamine and other amino acids. Garlick PJ.

20. Nutrition. 2000 Nov-Dec;16(11-12):1037-42. Plasma glutamine response to enteral administration of glutamine in human volunteers (free glutamine versus protein-bound glutamine). Boza JJ, Maire J, Bovetto L, Ballevre O.

21. J Strength Cond Res. 2002 Feb;16(1):157-60. The effects of high-dose glutamine ingestion on weightlifting performance. Antonio J, Sanders MS, Kalman D, Woodgate D, Street C.

22. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2000 Apr;278(4):E593-602. Oxidation of glutamine by the splanchnic bed in humans. Haisch M, Fukagawa NK, Matthews DE.
 
silverSurfer

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I really like Scivation's Xtend. I make it last longer by adding bulk BCAA and bulk L-Leucine - I've made my own 4:1:1 mix :whip:
 
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fightbackhxc

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you can get creatine through diet too.

I dont care what people say. Glutamine works.
Didnt say it didnt work, I would just rather focus on getting more of the BCAA's rather then Glutamine which is plentiful in foods we eat everyday. Leucine is one of the key activators of protein synthesis and its important to take the right amount at the right times.
 
jakellpet

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Didnt say it didnt work, I would just rather focus on getting more of the BCAA's rather then Glutamine which is plentiful in foods we eat everyday. Leucine is one of the key activators of protein synthesis and its important to take the right amount at the right times.
yep, agreed. As a preference I would definately go with BCAAs - glutamine if it's cheap.

Some snakeoil salesmen sell it likes its a frikken miracle cure.
 
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You can obtain glutamine easily through diet tho IMO.
You can make the same arguemnt for BCAA's. Look at what pro's do for contest prep...Almost all of them take about 20-40gr of glutamine/day.

They take BCAA's around their workout but maybe 20gr. Thats for the protein sysnthesis from luecine mostly. I recently read a study showing Leucine to only work if you had enough protein in your diet to really do the trick for muscle growth.

I am also around and friends with a lot of pro level BB's. (I say pro level because most all have placed top 6 in their weight class at a prop qualifier but yet to get a pro card. They're all between 24-30 so they have some time). A lot of them couldn't be botherd with BCAA's and pound glutamine.

A lot of people say glutamine is crap but I like it, I can tell a difference between using it and not. BCAA's I just take because, well, everyone else does and the science looks good. However, I ran a contest prep with 20-30gr glutamine a day and I was about 15lbs heavier than the year before. Big difference was using glutamine consistenly, not to mention my recovery was great!

I guess I go more by bro science for most supp's. To each his own....i'm done rambling....im all ears.
 
John Smeton

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the more extreme the circumstances, like dieting for a show, the more benefit you see from it. and even if it is off season.

some of us on these boards have been on here long enough to know what it is like to train intense balls the the wall (high intensity training in general) and know that intense training drains energy if recovery is not in place.

if you are on a budget like myself use it when you can most benefit;although it would be nice to be able to use 20-40 grams every day and I am sure any one who does has an advantage to those who do not because of the recovery aspect of it, use it in extreme circumstances if you budget is limited.
 
dg806

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Solid product. Good price.

Where can I find the literature to support the "new 4:1:1 ratio"?

Lemon only?! Uhhggg. :(
There probably is no secret ratio. It has been shown that Leucine alone gives an increased anabolic effect.

I hope we can get a grape or orange flavor. Actually, the lemon is better than I thought. I'm not a lemon fan either.
 

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I am a fan of both and am using BCAA's right now. However, I see no reason that taking both (for teh right price) wouldnt be beneficial
 

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