Chinese herbs

matthias7

matthias7

Well-known member
I want to start a quick thread on Chinese herbs. The stuff you can buy in a Chinese herbalist.

I bought some Cordyceps from a herbalist recently. It took a bit of doing to get a Chinese translation of Cordyceps ... I described the sherpas of Nepal, insect fungus (drawing pictures), 'highly prized Chinese herb', described stamina, mimed what stamina was .. I should have gone onto Chinese olympic atheletes but luckly one of the girls was online. Google sort out the translation in no time.

Really expensive $1.50 per cap and that was after multi-buy and bartering. The stuff was rocket fuel. I'd just been drinking Purple Wraath all day - but this was something else.

Anyway I want to start making a list of Chinese herbs that might be useful. It could be handy if there's a shortage of standard stock.

So..
Cordyceps (obviously)
Glycobols "Phellodendron"
Fresh ginseng (this never worked for me)
Gingko

Not much of a start but it will grow...
 
Actually ... I go one better. I'll make an appointment with a Chinese doctor and see if they can put a test booster together.

Definately no ground up tiger in it though. :)

Actually if there are any Chinese bodybuilders on the forum that could save me the difficulty of having to mime 'test booster' that would be cool. Describing a test booster to someone who doesn't really understand English could be fun... I can do a muscle pose, curl my lips up, mime the act of ... better stop there. Yeah I kinda need help on this one. :lol:
 
Isn't cordyceps in a number of products sold here that are much less than $1.50 a cap?
 
Its like all supplements ..quality is everything. I've got Cordyceps from Mycology Research Labs and its junk. The only Cordyceps that is reputable is Millenium Technology Cordy05 and VO2.

I got impatient waiting for my stuff to ship - thats why I went to a Chinese herbalist. If you live outside the US it can be frustrating getting quality or else frustrating waiting for a shipment.
 
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This link as the Chinese names of the more popular herbs, as well as 50 "common" herbs.

Inetersting to see this in there, considering that RPN just started selling this, hehe: Rauwolfia serpentina - shégēnmù (蛇根木), cóng shégēnmù (從蛇根木), or yìndù shé mù (印度蛇木)

However, i am quite wary of taking chinese herbs myself ( I am of chinese descent living is southeast asia). Most herbs come from China i think, and their quality control there is not that great (e.g. even bulk 6oxo from China were contaminated, hehe). It has been reported that some cordceps famers insert lead wires into the herb to make it weigh heavier.

And 'pills' that come from china have an even worse rep in my country. There are on average 1-2 incidents per year of chinese medicine being 'recalled' in my country because they contain poisonous metals (arsenic, etc) or actually have western medicine in them. A few months back, a couple of old guys died after taking some pills to improve their virility. They thought they had bought an herbal remedy, but the authorities found that the shells of the capsules have Cialis (or some viagra type medicine).

Just saying, be careful. :)
 
Right ... well that settles it then.

Unless there is a Chinese expert willing to stand against this viewpoint I can't see how I can proceed. I can't guarrantee the quality as I know nothing about Chinese medicine.

The only saving grace is that buying herbs is better than buying pills/caps. Nice idea but its a pity. I suppose I'll have to go back to being frustrated by delayed shipments.
 
wontdie said:
Inetersting to see this in there, considering that RPN just started selling this, hehe: Rauwolfia serpentina - shégēnmù (蛇根木)

However, i am quite wary of taking chinese herbs myself ( I am of chinese descent living is southeast asia).
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I've just got the RPN product actually - it'll be a while before I try it... AlphaBurn. I am well aware of what some of this stuff can do and its a great shame that something potentially really useful like Cordyceps or Rauwolfia serpentina I can't buy from the huge numbers of Chinese herbalist where I am because you can't guarrentee the quality. It is something of a disaster to be honest.

I am going to put this on the 'backburner' for now, but keep making inquiries long term - its too much of a resource to pass over so lightly.

The general problem with US/European supplements is not that they are dangerous it is that they are ineffective. A common trick is to supply low grade material that is not bio-available generating a false economy. Thus I'd never get my vital supplements vitamins/minerals from a pharmacy or health food shop (Holland and Barrets in the UK) because of these concerns.

Thats why Animal Pak is such a good buy - you can rely on the quality and that is what you pay for. I don't use it, but after I've run down my current stack I'll switch.

Its looks to be a different ball-game with Chinese - the quality is in the safety of the supplement not in its potency.

I am culturally educated today.

How do you say 'Three bad taylors are better than Chu Gulion (the very wise ancient Chinese guy)' :lol: :lol:

Okay thread dead at this point. Just leave it to sink, my mistake really.

Note to myself: Salvia sclarea = Coleus for vasodilation ??
 
ive been in 500 year old pharmacies in beijing, nothing like seeing a tang with a giant ginseng, with a snake wrapped around it and turtles in it.
 
steam said:
go to reputable herbalist...develop a relationship with them..
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One of the guys here kindly emailed me a good supplier. I dunno how customs will handle imported herbs - they may not like it. I'll give it a try; UK based would be handy.

I've a relationship with an oriental (not a herbalist) and she thinks the whole thing is junk :lol:
 
when i was in china, training at the gym the guys their wanted me to send them western supplements. tells you a little how much chinese medicine focusus on sports.

chinese medicine is good for healing injuries, overtraining and energy. it doesnt focus on bodybuilding but you can find some things for mild weight loss and if your energy goes up you can train harder to be stronger.

i just bought the cordygenVO2 that should be a nice chinese medicine tonic.
 
Cordyceps is a good case in point - this is great for athletics/bodybuilding: Ask the Chinese Olympic national team. Adaptogens another great case in point (important for test levels).

In terms of direct hardcore muscle building ... sure, but indirect stuff its got too much of a good reputation to ignore. I presume the guys were wanting you to get hold of prohormones.
 
matthias7 said:
Cordyceps is a good case in point - this is great for athletics/bodybuilding: Ask the Chinese Olympic national team. Adaptogens another great case in point (important for test levels).

In terms of direct hardcore muscle building ... sure, but indirect stuff its got too much of a good reputation to ignore. I presume the guys were wanting you to get hold of prohormones.
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no, they just wanted supplements in general.

they sold western stuff in their little supplement cornner in the gyms, in beijing and shanghai but they have all this herba-life crap, no chinese medicine.

all their whey protein is mostly stuff produced in china, and its just plain whey concentrate and they sell it for like $80 usa dollars a 5 lb tub which was shocking.

in the supermarkets they sell whey concentrate in little 1 lb tubs for like $35 and more.

its pretty shocking how much whey protein is there especially since they make their own in china, and compared to how CHEAP food can be, including eating out i was very happy i had already bought my own protein on my first trip.

i stayed there for 2 months back in 07 and bought like 15 pounds of protein with me, luckily my packaged wasnt checked as it is illegal to ship whey protein into china, its supposed to get quaranteened at the airport if they find out.

im actually looking into getting jiangloa (gynostemma) which ill get on ebay, its in cordygen but i want to supplement a little more. ebay has alot of chinese herbs, including sellers in the uk and usa just to give you a heads up.

if you find out more for bodybuilding please post, i subscribed to this thread and im looking to add some chinese medicine myself as some alternatives.
 
Just to respond ... really what I found was that reputable teapills are the way to go. I do brew Fo-Ti but the complex crock pot formulas are a hassle to make.

Genuine "Plum tree" brand is good.

This is more in the area of PCT though, 'restoring Yin' type stuff. The stuff I got in the end is one of the more ancient blends - made in the US, so the quality should be very good.

The usual stuff Cordyceps (MST) and ginseng everyone knows about. The rest is really for PCT, restoring the system after a cycle has unbalanced it.
 
matthias7 said:
This is more in the area of PCT though, 'restoring Yin' type stuff. The stuff I got in the end is one of the more ancient blends - made in the US, so the quality should be very good.
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what did you get to restore you yin?

i was in china for 2.5 months october to december, ill tell you cordyceps can go up to $1,000 or more a package in china itself!

i just recently caught a bad cold during my first hdrol cycle, and i defeated it on cycle with chinese medicine. if your interested you can check out my log on what i did, kinda weird but your into this stuff.
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ax1 said:
what did you get to restore you yin?

i was in china for 2.5 months october to december, ill tell you cordyceps can go up to $1,000 or more a package in china itself!

i just recently caught a bad cold during my first hdrol cycle, and i defeated it on cycle with chinese medicine. if your interested you can check out my log on what i did, kinda weird but your into this stuff.
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You can try to eat more foods thats are considered Yin.

alfalfa sprouts
apple
apricot
Asian pear
asparagus
bamboo
bamboo shoots
barley, pearl
bok choy
broccoli
burdock root
carrot
cauliflower
celery
chicken eggs (not recommended)
Chinese cabbage
clam
crab
cucumber
Daikon radish
dandelion
dandelion greens
eggs, chicken (not recommended)
eggplant
endive
lotus root
millet
pearl barley
pork (not recommended)
potato
pumpkin
Romaine lettuce
soy bean sprouts
spinach
squash
turnip
watecress
wheat
zucchini
 
Yeah ... no doubt

Liu Wei Di Huang Wan ... I got YinVive (US version)

It ain't to "cure" anything, just to help things out PCT
 
ax1 said:
i just recently caught a bad cold during my first hdrol cycle, and i defeated it on cycle with chinese medicine. if your interested you can check out my log on what i did, kinda weird but your into this stuff.
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Thanks ... takes some doing to defeat a cold.
 
matthias7 said:
I want to start a quick thread on Chinese herbs. The stuff you can buy in a Chinese herbalist.

I bought some Cordyceps from a herbalist recently. It took a bit of doing to get a Chinese translation of Cordyceps ... I described the sherpas of Nepal, insect fungus (drawing pictures), 'highly prized Chinese herb', described stamina, mimed what stamina was .. I should have gone onto Chinese olympic atheletes but luckly one of the girls was online. Google sort out the translation in no time.

Really expensive $1.50 per cap and that was after multi-buy and bartering. The stuff was rocket fuel. I'd just been drinking Purple Wraath all day - but this was something else.

Anyway I want to start making a list of Chinese herbs that might be useful. It could be handy if there's a shortage of standard stock.

So..
Cordyceps (obviously)
Glycobols "Phellodendron"
Fresh ginseng (this never worked for me)
Gingko

Not much of a start but it will grow...
Click to expand...

Cordyceps is called 'winter worm summer herb', if you tell them this they will know.
The price of Cordyceps varies because most of products are not really from died insects. They incubate the fungus in nutrition medium and get tons of cheaper thing. I don't think it's less valuable. Even it is, the price are so low that you can actually have a lot to cover the difference. The really good worm-herb cordyceps can be as expensive as gold. One of my families got some, he is in his 50s and he reported 'don't feel cold in winter anymore'.
I personally have some caps made in Taiwan, I found it does help.
(Chinese medicine products in Taiwan are more reliable, if you buy a GMP proofed product. Chinese medicine is included in Health care system in Taiwan, where has a much better health care system than in US :-P)

Fresh Ginseng can be easily got in chinese store even in the UK, and not much more expensive really. I found it actually help to restore Yin. Juice it with honey is a very refreshing drink.
Strange enough, dry or fresh (white) ginseng actually has very different effect from processed (red) ginseng. When I take white ginseng, I just feel a bit better spirit in general, but if I take red ginseng, I got higher libido, sleep less well, and a bit dry mouth.

Liu Wei Di Huang Wan is good for PCT, but it's mild. you can modify it base one your problem. If your Yin was badly harmed, you should use Ji Bo Di Huang Wan; if your both yin and yan were harmed (like total shut of libido), maybe Kue Fu Di Huang Wan is better.

for translation, use google.com.tw or cn... well, they might shut google cn soon :P
 
Wow this is some post ... thank you

Liu Wei Di Huang Wan ... mild PCT
Ji Bo Di Huang Wan ... stronger than above ... YinVive CoolTM is the US product
Kue Fu Di Huang Wan ... restoring hard shutdown

Yeah google.cn looks shaky.

Couldn't find Kue Fu Di Huang Wan but YanViveTM, viz. Jin Kui Shen Qi Wan, Jin Kui Shen Qi Pian, Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan, Ba Wei Di Huang Wan (?) might be something similar.

Basically these products are reputable tea pills, ie. the Vive range.
 
matthias7 said:
Wow this is some post ... thank you

Liu Wei Di Huang Wan ... mild PCT
Ji Bo Di Huang Wan ... stronger than above ... YinVive CoolTM is the US product
Kue Fu Di Huang Wan ... restoring hard shutdown

Yeah google.cn looks shaky.

Couldn't find Kue Fu Di Huang Wan but YanViveTM, viz. Jin Kui Shen Qi Wan, Jin Kui Shen Qi Pian, Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan, Ba Wei Di Huang Wan (?) might be something similar.

Basically these products are reputable tea pills, ie. the Vive range.
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Ba wei di huang wan (八味地黃丸) and jin kui shen qi wan (金匱腎氣丸) are the same thing as kue fu di huang wan (桂附地黃丸)
Ji Shan shen qi wan (濟生腎氣丸) is slightly different, i think it got 2 more than Ba wei, which makes the medicine diuretic. If you have Yan harmed caused water stranded, you can use this.

basically, to seperate yin harmed or yan harmed, you still need to check other syptoms:
yin harmed: feel dry, blush, feel hot in evening or night, unstable sexual performance, lower back and knees sore, nocturnal ejeculation...
Liu We Di Huang Wan, JI Bo di huang wan


yan harmed: low energy, low libido, impotence, pale, feel cold easily, water stranded.
Ba we di huang wan, gin kui seng qi wan, and more....
 
My grandpa was a Chinese herbalist and my uncle an acupuncturist. I was once prescribed a therapeutic tea that contained the usual herbs you see, some flowers and my favorite, dried crickets or ****roaches. Maybe locusts, not sure, but yeah, boiled it all together and drank it like a hot tea. Interesting thread by the way.
 
Got it ... thanks.

So really "on-cycle" Yin is harmed
PCT Yan is harmed

In other words I appear to have got this the wrong way round?

BTW what do you mean by being "water stranded"?
 
matthias7 said:
Got it ... thanks.

So really "on-cycle" Yin is harmed
PCT Yan is harmed

In other words I appear to have got this the wrong way round?

BTW what do you mean by being "water stranded"?
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i don't know really, because I never have a cycle or PCT? :P
but I think even for one PH's PCT, different people might have different reactions, so just check yourself with the syptoms list.
In general, if during cycle or post cycle, you feel like having less fluid, too much heat, a bit dry out, you can choose medicine to help YIN. If you feel colder, lost your energy, desire and heat, you can choose medicine to help Yan. No matter PCT or not.

water stranded is a bit like water and sodium contained in your body. You piss many times, but every time not much; urine is not yellow enough, you got slightly dropsy. This should be quite normal on too high estrogen. But remember, Jin kue shen qi wan can only be used when water stranded combine low heat/energy.

When you need Yin medicine, don't take Yan medicine, same in reverse, otherwise your syptoms will get worse. well, at least you know you need to go to another direction at that time. For myself, I take tongkat ali recently, and got hot feeling in the morning, morning wood plus noctunal ejeculation, so I take some Ji Bo di huang wan to balance the heat/Yan.
 
matthias7 said:
Got it thanks.

You have an excellent reaction to Long Jack - doesn't have the same effect on me.
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It's not bad, but I have to say even I got morning wood, one developing acne, etc, my mental sexual desire didn't go up; I am still not into sex or masturbation much. Maybe it's just me, I am always a low sex interests person; or maybe because I am still in my early 30s.

Strangely, Malaysian herbists desribe tongkat ali as a cooling herb, maybe because it can be used to treat fever from malaria or yellow fever. Indeed I didn't feel this herb too hot itself: I didn't have dry mouth or bad breath. Base on Chinese medicine theory, when a thing bitter like this, it's usually very 'dry'. Maybe it drys the yin so it seems warming. I will recommand this herb to those who has a cold and dropsy lower body + low libido + impotence.

There are many Tongkat Ali products, different companies, different ratio extracts... I havn't tried all so can't comment. What did you use? I use Sumatra pasa bumi 1:50 powder from tongkatali.org. Pretty bitter to take, but won't be worse than powder form of Liu We Di Huang Wan, which is disgusting. And I took 1 gram extration to get the effect, equal to 50 grams raw wood boiled in water.
 
I used 1:200 ... so it should have been very potent; I targeted the highest extraction available.

Perhaps the quality of the source is more important than the extraction process. I've not given up on Long Jack yet.
 
sanchezgreg18 said:
narrabooth or matthias : any thoughts on You Gui Wan ?
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My understanding of Chinese medicine isn't great but I'll bet narrabooth knows about it.

Astralagas = is standard supplement considered to be an antioxident (?) Considered to be important in anti-aging responses, might even be linked with telomere extension. Its in MST Greens mix

Although its part of Chinese medicine the stuff we're looking at is the complex medicinal blends where synergy is bringing about a beneficial response within Yin-Yan (Yang) philosophy.
 
sanchezgreg18 said:
narrabooth or matthias : any thoughts on You Gui Wan ?
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I think you mean '右歸丸'　'the pill that goes to right kidney'
It's a stronger medicine to help the YAN. Usually it is used for very low energy or older men. It might help quickly but if you don't really have that problem, you will soon have sides like dry or hot.

It's counter part is '左歸丸' 'the pill that goes to left kidney'
It's in the list of helping the YIN, but it is also for weaker person.
 
Andy G said:
Astragulus?
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nice herb, mild and can be used daily.
good for immune system and energy in general.
slightly warm for some people so if you feel mouth dry or teeth root sore etc, add some Liriope spicata Lour (麥門冬) to cool it.

it tastes nice, so you can just buy roots and boil it as tea. We use high dose to get the effect, so taking raw powder is not too good. You can boil 50-80g of dry root in 1000ml water for 30mins, then put it in the frig as caffeine free drink. It's also nice to add some goji berry or/and a hint of dry white ginseng or American ginseng.

all these can be found in china town.

the only thing: if you are in your early stage of a cold or flu and you got fever, don't take it.
 
matthias7 said:
I used 1:200 ... so it should have been very potent; I targeted the highest extraction available.

Perhaps the quality of the source is more important than the extraction process. I've not given up on Long Jack yet.
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I used to got some 1:200 from ebay.co.uk. the seller claimed it's from Sumatra pasa bumi but when i open one capsule, the powder is not bitter at all.
I email him and ask what heppened, he answered: oh, the 1:200 extract exclude the bitter part and contain only effective stuffs....

bull s**t. his 1:200 extract tastes just like starch, no taste, no odor, and i don't think 1:200 extract will be less bitter than 1:50 extract.

Luckly I returned and got refund.
this stuff is so expensive, more expensive than ginseng, thus many people just sell fakes. If I don't open the capsule I wouldn't know. That's also a reason why I decided to use powder rather than capsule, at least the woody smell and bitter taste is unique.
 
I have been taking some Chinese herbs for the past few months:

Jiaogulan 95% extract
Fo-Ti 12:1 extract
Astragalus 12:1 extract

I have noticed (and other have commented) that my hair has become thicker, my barber now needs to use those thinning shears to get some of the bulk out whenever I get a haircut.

Even though I haven't lost any weight I have noticed that my face looks thinner and I feel much more energetic.

My friends think I am crazy for using Chinese herbs but I think 2,000 years of experience beats out a 6 month trial.

I also have to explain to them that in the USA our attitude is "hey I'm sick give me something to make me feel better" and that the whole Healthcare debate should be called Sickcare since that is the only time most people see a doctor.
Versus traditional Chinese Medicine's view of taking preventative measures to avoid from getting sick in the first place.
 
Fo-ti (He zo wu, 何首烏)
it's chinese name means something to make your head black. (Chinese got black hair except elders) which means you will get more hair and less grey hair if you take it.

Even in China, many people just don't believe chinese medicine.
I am a scientist, but I used to study chinese medicine. I agree that chinese medicine got some stupid ideas, especially on infectious disease. Theory on diseases like TB or Malaria is just laughable; well, maybe not worse than the theory in western medicine in 19th centry.
Now modern medical science got powerful tools like antibiotics to treat many diseases, which is good. But there are still some problems that chinese medicine can handle better. yes, the theory is a bit like astrology, pseudo science,.... but it works for some problems which modern medicine can't slove, that's the most important.


Cyplex said:
I have been taking some Chinese herbs for the past few months:

Jiaogulan 95% extract
Fo-Ti 12:1 extract
Astragalus 12:1 extract

I have noticed (and other have commented) that my hair has become thicker, my barber now needs to use those thinning shears to get some of the bulk out whenever I get a haircut.

Even though I haven't lost any weight I have noticed that my face looks thinner and I feel much more energetic.

My friends think I am crazy for using Chinese herbs but I think 2,000 years of experience beats out a 6 month trial.

I also have to explain to them that in the USA our attitude is "hey I'm sick give me something to make me feel better" and that the whole Healthcare debate should be called Sickcare since that is the only time most people see a doctor.
Versus traditional Chinese Medicine's view of taking preventative measures to avoid from getting sick in the first place.
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To be honest I prefer the philosphy in Chinese medicine. It appears to be orientated towards prevention, or at least is geared towards early intervention.

I do infectious disease for a living... with malaria Chinese medicine unearthed artimesanin, right? Thats not a bad drug but its far from perfect against a disease as difficult as malaria.

I need to look at Long jack again and go for a reliable source.

There are some very powerful androgenic supplements however, but I think Chinese medicine has a lot to offer PCT its just we don't understand it.

You Gui Wan is one for the record.
 
Cyplex said:
I have been taking some Chinese herbs for the past few months:

Jiaogulan 95% extract
Fo-Ti 12:1 extract
Astragalus 12:1 extract

...
My friends think I am crazy for using Chinese herbs but I think 2,000 years of experience beats out a 6 month trial.
...
Versus traditional Chinese Medicine's view of taking preventative measures to avoid from getting sick in the first place.
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I agree but you need to be careful with extracts. Firstly the starting material may not be good (e.g. Long Jack), secondly the extraction process can introduce toxins.

I use fresh Fo-Ti and MST's Jiaogulan.

Great thread BTW. Excellent thread.
 
Zhuang Yang Wan, Zhuang Yang Pian looks pretty good for Yan strengthening

Also Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang looks interesting.
 
oh, yes, we used artimisia to treat malaria.
you need to eat kgs of artimisia to get enough artimesanin.
Modern microbiology is unbeatable, Penisillin saved thousands of lives, as a chinese, i totally accept this. :)

For extraction, usually I don't worry if I buy from a real exist company, even it locates in China. I just came from London China town and got some pills (首烏丸 黃連上清丸) from 同仁堂. (where do you base in the UK, matt?) In Taiwan, only extract powder will be paid by healthcare insurance, because powder is standarised, herbs are not.
For Long Jack, if they use normal extract methods, there shouldn't be a problem. if the method is like decribed in testingtongkatali.com, it's just water extraction dry powder. The solide base might be starch or a bit raw root powder. If you want you can try some of my 1:50 extract see if it works on you, I got 8 bottles... a bit too much. But my experience til now is, it's better to combine long jack with other libido herbs. When I took tongkat ali only, it did something, like morning wood etc, but not too much on my motivation to sex. When I combine with Maca, tubu etc, I use lower dose for all and get same morning wood plus sexual desire.

Finally, I am sure chinese medicine is good to PCT or even on cycle. It just on the ball in this field compare to infectious disease. However chinese medication is linked to chinese medicine diagnosis, different people will need different medication. If you choose correct medication, you can just see its effect within one day, no matter extract or raw herbs.

But still, I am checking all the medication that chinese medicine used for sexual/hormone problems, maybe we can get a brief recommands for on cycle and PCT.
Can you briefly tell me what 'syndromes' are usually seen in on cycle and PCT? I have no experience on this.

壯陽丸 and 片 are very YAN, I think it would be too 'hot' for many people, but again, depends on the person's situation.
 
同仁堂 I sure know where China Town, London is. I guess if I wave 同仁堂 at enough Chinese people I'll get there. The trouble with any Chinese shop is that as soon as I walk in they automatically triple all prices (I don't look remotely Chinese).

壯陽丸 and 片 - looks good. I'll email the price back to this board.

PCT symptoms... fatigue, loss of energy, lack of focus / concerntration with a lower mood. These are classic symptoms - partic. low energy.

Libido will be affected, more than most admit. But if you say "Hey girl, look muscles" and she giggles alot ... then only castration could cause libido problems. "Muscle" an ancient female libido boost. I just follow suit.

On cycle symptoms ... perhaps a weak Yin "too hot". It will depend on the cycle. I like hot alot. One problem is "dry joints" (joint pain). Epistane/Havoc is very prone to this and its a big problem. Fatigue is another but often just needs DHEA.
 
narraboth said:
In Taiwan, only extract powder will be paid by healthcare insurance, because powder is standarised, herbs are not.
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Thats very interesting - thanks.

narraboth said:
When I took tongkat ali only, it did something, like morning wood etc, but not too much on my motivation to sex.
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Thats interesting. Thats exactly what icariin does. I've got some reputable Long Jack, so I'll check this out PCT, but thanks for your offer. Maca boosts my test a bit - I've measured it. The 1:200 prep long jack I bought looks like I should have asked for a refund. Thanks for pointing it out! :). Icarrin, long jack and maca is a standard PCT formula.

narraboth said:
It just on the ball in this field compare to infectious disease.
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Agreed. If you've got dengue fever (which means "break bone" in Latin - thats how you feel), you can forget Chinese medicine.

narraboth said:
However chinese medication is linked to chinese medicine diagnosis, different people will need different medication.
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I take your point. Without a professional diagnosis its not really effective. Its clear that I went and bought the wrong tea pills - they are from a very reputable source, made in the USA (which costs extra) ... but nevertheless completely useless. Is this funny ? :lol:

Thanks narraboth this has been one of the most informative threads I've been involved with.
 
thank you for you join, seems not too many people into chinese medicine except us two.

for 同仁堂 I think they have marked price that you can't change anyway? if you live in london we can go together next time, in case you worry you will be cheated, although i think it's less possible. If they ask you 3 times more price you can basically ask police to come. I got 6.5 for each box of pills, not as cheap as in china but a ok price. But don't see a doctor in 同仁堂. (There are people complaining about 同仁堂 london, mainly about their doctor.)

and thank you for giving information about cycle and PCT. If that's the case, yes, I think people should use increasing Yan medication for PCT and Yin medication for on cycle.
Joint problem we usually use 獨活寄生湯/丸, not sure if you can easily get some in London. I think I am going to try epistane very soon, I will tell you what chinese medicine I use then.

Finally, my phd thesis topic is about dengue, interesting enough.
However it might not be a great example because there is no treatment for dengue fever in modern medicine either. There is no vaccine yet either.
 
narraboth said:
However it might not be a great example because there is no treatment for dengue fever in modern medicine either. There is no vaccine yet either.
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The following will be boring to the rest of the forum... just a bit of PM chatter.

Interesting you work on dengue. There's a very, very slim chance I've taught you, although I don't work in virology. One of the guys did go on to dengue a few years back, I don't think it was a Chinese guy, although I bet you know him (there's not many dengue groups in London).

Do you prescribe to the strain variation or antibody dependant enhancement theory of DHSS? ADE has all the kudos now, but thats not to say it is correct of course. For the rest of the forum ... its too dangerous to produce a dengue vaccine because it could make an infection life-threatening otherwise most infections the patient becomes becomes very ill but survives. Personally I think a vaccine should be given once a patient has had a dengue infection, bizzarely this could either save a life or cost a life, so its too risky to ever put into practice.

Here you are the professor narraboth ;)

Joints are a major problem due to low estrogen with Epistane and phytoestrogens could be useful in this case, otherwise they are worse than a plague.

Thanks for the info on the 同仁堂 doctor. I'd never know otherwise.
 
hi, i am not in london, I meant next time when i go to london i can go to china town with you :P I almost got an phd offer in UCL, but that would be a HCMV project.
I don't think I had a luck to be taught by a bodybuilder lecturer. :P

back to public topic, I will buy animal flex(?) as joint support, if things getting bad, I might either give up epi or open the menopause support bottle I got which supposed for my mum. I will take lots of soybean product too. I worry about this more than my PCT. I don't really mind libido shut that much to be honest, I am single in this country, I can survive without sex. But inflammed joint and damaged liver are just too high price for muscle fit body.
 
Okay ... there can't be many dengue groups within the UK, but I didn't keep track perhaps there is one at the IMM, Oxford? Its not something follow, I thought there was one in London - could be wrong. It is likely one of your colleagues is someone I knew (they'll be much more lazy than you if thats the case).

Epistane is very "alpha male" (which has other benefits) but needs a carefully thought out PCT.

Joints with Epistane. The only solution I've seen to this is using HRT (a bit drastic) - which is more for the anabolics forum - but many guys have not reported any problems. I was hoping a Chinese medicine could help.

If you are using Epistane the liver needs to be checked and needs liver support ... thats just a case of informing the GP having blood work before, during and after and using a liver support supplement. If you get bad lipid profiles during the cycle you quit it.

The libido thing is quite important because it affects the whole "alpha male" thing and thats why Epistane is attactive.

There are alot of anabolic supplements that have less risk that Epistane and (two) some that are much worse (Alpha One, Sdrol oh and keep clear of Phera. I think Phera is banned). Its alot to do with whether is methylated or not.

Basically there are risks and different people respond differently but if done carefully you will be able to check whether you have adverse effects. The biggest issue is the prostrate IMO (you are generating lots of DHT) but it could have long term consequences. This stuff is alpha male because of DHT but DHT risks prostrate problems long term. You can control DHT using supplements but I would ask whats the point (?).

I disagree with the idea its all about a bit of muscle. Its about a philosophy and an approach to life, which says life is short so make the most of now.
 
I am not that good to be in Oxford, haha. I think maybe we should talk about this in PM though.

Thanks for the information (and continual reputations, you made me embarrassed almost)

How to get liver test (or even testo test) in the UK? NHS will pay for this? I checked some blood test centres on line and the price is just unacceptable.
Yeah, i know about methylate things, but still, you got to use something really useful.

Joints problem... I won't know until then. My mum had a slight knees problem in her menopause when her same age friends got serious pain. I think I am like my mum genetically... even body composition :(
I might ask my friend to send me some extract of 獨活寄生湯 (for joints and 'back pumps') and Shan Yao (natural source of DHEA) from Taiwan. If even that can't help, I will be happy to give up the rest epi to someone. If I quit epistane I might go for protodrol, said to be much milder to both liver and joint, a product which available in the UK but not in the US now. (Although it has less 'slim muscle' effect which I want than epi, I think)

How do you feel now for your Havoc cycle? what's your plan for PCT? And sorry to ask, how old are you? lol

finally, about philosophy, i do want to make some big change on my body in my limited youth, that's why we are talking about this; but I am afraid sometimes life won't be as short as you think when you have liver/joint problems with you in the rest of it.
 
narraboth said:
How to get liver test (or even testo test) in the UK? NHS will pay for this? I checked some blood test centres on line and the price is just unacceptable.
Yeah, i know about methylate things, but still, you got to use something really useful.
.....
How do you feel now for your Havoc cycle? what's your plan for PCT? And sorry to ask, how old are you? lol
Click to expand...

The following is useful for UK body builders, if you don't maximize your use of the NHS already ...

I am afraid sometimes life won't be as short as you think when you have liver/joint problems with you in the rest of it.
Click to expand...

This is why is important to get regular medicals. Joints are difficult to monitor - the rest isn't.

Liver Yes the NHS will pay for this. Just tell them what you are doing and although they might try and discourage you just tell them you will be doing it in any case. They will have to perform blood work for cholesterol regardless. They could refuse an "on-cycle" blood test, its the GPs discretion, but pre- and post- they pretty much have to do.

Kidney Oh and request a kidney function check ... very important. Just say you're on excess protein. I get checked every 6 months. Make sure you are not on creatine.

Test Test tests I have done in the US. For future I will have it done via the NHS, but basically they'll just check post-cycle the test "looks okay" rather than do detailed monitoring. They could refuse this and you might have to say you have low test before they'd authoize it.

Blood pressue I use my own monitor but the GP/nurse will perform this for you both on and off cycle as a course of routine.

Cost FREE, i.e. £0 and $0

Basically given solid medical support you should be sound. The prostate risk will always be there and joints :dunno:

Cycle is centred on 1T. Epistane is dosed to check my tolerance in this cycle and watch for adverse effects. So far none. Age mid-thirties. The PCT is complex and I will briefly (1.5 weeks) overlap an AI with Sustain Alpha and check for adverse hormonal reactions (saliva test). I will get some 壯陽丸 or 片 and see how it works. On-cycle I use milk thistle and some Cycle Support by AI. The cycle is pretty light, no adverse blood pressure or problems sleeping, a small amount of fatigue (from the 1T). Okay gains. Easy.
 
thank you, smart 30 something lecturer :)
still, if you want we can go to china town some time and have nice talk about chinese medicine before we two annoy everyone here.
 
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