Insulin spike PWO necessary?
- 06-21-2009, 01:53 PM
Insulin spike PWO necessary?
I keep hearing that it's not necessary. From what I've read, spiking insulin has been a standard practice postworkout to maintain an anabolic state, as insulin is the most powerful anabolic hormone, and it sets the stage for quicker glycogen replenishment. Complete postworkout supps like Torrent and Dark Matter also seem to support this.
What do you think? Any truth to the high GI carbs/insulin spike PWO not being necessary?
- 06-21-2009, 01:54 PM
I know it helps suppress cortisol levels post wo. To save money I just drink a shake with milk post wo because of all the sugar in it.
- 06-21-2009, 02:00 PM
Yes exactly, cortisol = catabolic hormone, so you're maintaining an anabolic state.
Lactose (milk carbs/sugar) isn't a terrible choice unless you're lactose intolerant, which you may be if you're not of Northern European descent. You probably also get some with your whey unless it's pure isolate. And some whey products like ON's contain enzymes (lactase) to help. Though malto/dextrose/sucrose/honey would be better. I get NOW's Carbo Gain (malto) for $23 for 12 lbs, pretty cheap.
06-21-2009, 02:06 PM
You could add something like Dextrose (which is super cheap) to your PWO shake, but I wouldn't say it's 100% necessary.
06-21-2009, 05:26 PM
I've gone back and forth on this a lot......Im going to say no. I've had a lot of success using low-GI carbs post workout. Dextrose and Malto give me stomach issues anyways. WMS works great for me because of simplicity and 9 times out of 10 I am not hungry post workout.
WMS attracted me bc of it's high molecular weight and ability to help shuttle goodies without insulin being needed.
Here's my advice try one for 4 weeks and chart gains and then try the other for 4 weeks. See which works better for you.
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
06-21-2009, 05:30 PM
I am in the no camp.
Complex carbs for me after workout thank you. Blended oats, protein and a banana.
06-21-2009, 05:34 PM
2 scoops karbolyn
6 scoops xtend
post workout perfection....im with distilled water on this one
06-21-2009, 05:39 PM
Hey at last - good company. Low GI forever except I've a weakness for full cream icecream (I can sink a 1/2 litre tub pretty easily).
I think the idea of trying the spike and charting is a very good one. Hi GI carb is cheap.
06-22-2009, 08:46 AM
06-22-2009, 09:00 AM
necessary no, possibly slightly beneficial - but moreso only if everything else is on target too. Otherwise you are about as likely to add more fat than muscle
06-22-2009, 09:58 AM
No, it is not neccessary. Beneficial for some yes...,However I have found I gain just as much lean muscle with protein and fats PWO as I do with Carbs.
06-22-2009, 10:19 AM
You'll get answers from both camps, those who avoid/keep carbohydrates low post workout and those who 'go for the spike'.
I personally go for an insulin spike post workout, since the rest of my meals/diet is very low GL/GI, to me it's the best time to spike insulin if you're ever going to do it.
06-22-2009, 10:41 AM
There are pros and cons to both. Insulin and GH won't share the same stage and when you do strenuous exercise (aerobic or anaerobic) the body releases GH. One of the few times of the day it will other than REM sleep. You can release insulin at will. By consuming carbs PWO you kill your GH release. Both hormones are anabolic. The benefit of GH vs insulin is insulin makes fat and GH burns fat.
As for me I always did carbs PWO, but this time I am going to go without.
Also if you are "on" cortisol should not be a concern. You are anabolic as a result of the hormones.
06-22-2009, 06:06 PM
I seriously suspect any naturally created insulin response due to hi gi carbs PWO wouldnt be a significant enough response to create that much of an anabolic environment, meaning it wouldnt foster significant ,if any, added muscle growth. . Exogenous insulin = yes , this IMO - no.
06-22-2009, 06:30 PM
My concern is moreso, no matter how insignificant, you are laying fat down each time you do this.
06-22-2009, 08:26 PM
Fat bad, muscle gooood!
06-22-2009, 09:11 PM
I used to simply take
2 tbsp natty pb
Nothing wrong with that. Im done with all the sugas PWO...especially since im trying to cut and its summer. Until i see otherwise, im sticking with this protocol.
06-23-2009, 07:09 AM
Guys if I can just throw a wrench into the works here, you may want to check out this article:
Its an indepth study on post workout nutrition but in laymans terms. You can read the indepth one on their site somewhere too, I found this quite helpful in deciding what to do and what not to do post workout. Been following it best I can for just under 2 years now.
See if this can help shed some light into the matter
06-23-2009, 09:21 AM
without references, that pdf is pointless. anyone can write whatever they want to write, if there aren't actual studies backing it up that you can look at to see where the study has flaws, its just an opinion.
06-23-2009, 09:59 AM
- 5'9" 200 lbs.
- Join Date
- Oct 2002
I've seen studies that show low gi carbs work just as well as high gi carbs to spike insulin. Like DS said, try it both ways and see what works for you the best.
06-23-2009, 11:17 PM
06-23-2009, 11:52 PM
I used to be vehemently YES, but as far as personal experience on going the route of Simple Carbs/Leucine/Protein PW for months on end and then a season of Ezekiel Natty PB & Sugar Free Jelly/Protein PW route. The difference was negligible. I'm going with I still somehow want to believe that it's a YES deep down, because of all the science I've read on it, but from my personal experience, I say NO, not so much.
NSCA - CSCS
06-24-2009, 09:43 AM
06-24-2009, 09:51 AM
I've seen plenty of theories that suggest glycogen levels are restored just as easily spreading out carbs throughout the day, regardless of hi vs. low GI. I'm not convinced that a post workout heavy carb load does anything whatsoever vs. a diet where total carbs were spread through the day.
06-24-2009, 10:35 AM
I've read a pretty credible book on the topic, Nutrient Timing (you can find from Google Books), which really promotes the insulin spike at a 3-4:1 carb-protein ratio with high-GI carbs postworkout.
So the topic is debatable. I guess just go with what works best for you. I guess drinking tons of sugar postworkout at least tastes good. :-)
06-24-2009, 01:23 PM
my body works very well with a1:1 carbs , protein ratio pwo, I really notice a big difference, but well that's me , I don't know if it's gonna work with everyone else
06-24-2009, 02:04 PM
06-24-2009, 02:06 PM
I still think there is a benefit to the post workout carb/protein/leucine load... even in nursing, which have no bodybuilding agenda's, recognize the 1 hour window of greater insulin sensitivity post anaerobic training, which you can exploit.
However, from my anecdotal & subjective experience as someone who was once PASSIONATE about the post workout window and never skipped a beat with taking down a 50g protein, 75g carb shake to gargle down a mouthful of bulk NP Leucine powder administered with a dirty spoon, DAILY. I did not experience any significant benefits.
I would recommend you try it and see how well you respond.
There is so much room for mediating variables in this arena, not only in proper administration/execution, but physiological & biochemical variances. This is probably why supplements are so often Hit & Miss and at such opposing spectrums from one person to another.
Some people felt PRIME by USPLabs was a sham because it didn't work for them. PRIME worked insanely well for me. I love RPM, yet some people don't respond to it, and it's a STIMULANT, which is traditionally VERY consistent from person to person.
I'm not a fan of broscientists who try something and due to their failed personal experience, deem an ideal (or supplement) null & void.
I've probably gone through tons of protein powder, but not once in my life have I ever “experienced” any “signifcanlty” perceivable benefits, in size, strength or anything at all, but it's just a concept that you know is beneficial.
This PW carb window could very well be the same thing. It's doing SOMETHING good, but not in a significant enough manner to say, “yes this works” or “100% no it doesn't.”
Post workout insulin sensitivity is a natural, bodily process, endogenous processes are hardly ever mind blowing and almost always pale in comparison to exogenous stimulated processes (ie. BB supps) which seem to be the unrealistic standard. I'm guilty of it as well, so I'm not preaching from a 12 foot horse or anything.
NSCA - CSCS
06-24-2009, 02:13 PM
06-24-2009, 02:16 PM
06-24-2009, 03:48 PM
Fellas, Nutrient Timing is not a credible source. IIRC that's a promo ad from GNC for a postworkout carb drink from about 6 or 8 yeas ago. Is Ed Byrd's NO2 book credible? See my point
06-24-2009, 03:59 PM
06-24-2009, 04:01 PM
06-24-2009, 04:03 PM
06-24-2009, 04:53 PM
Do we agree that the body shifts into a catabolic state as a result of intense resistance training?
If yes, then some immediate carbs/proitein can reverse that effect, so there's a pro.
Do we agree that intense resistance training depletes glycogen and as a result requires replenishment?
Yeah... but I don't know if you really need to pull it all in at once. I think this can be achieved just fine eating throughout the day, so this is a bit ambiguous.
However, your muscles are particularly primed for sugar intake due to the heightened insulin sensitivity post workout, so I don't think loading carbs PW is a complete waste.
Furthermore, it is well known that the ingestion of l-leucine further increases insulin release, therefore, augmenting and by working in conjunction with the previous paragraph.
Again, I don't practice the PW simple sugar load anymore, at least not intentionally. I practiced it RELIGIOUSLY for probably 6 months, but found that the results did not justify the effort.
Bulk Leucine tasts like a mouthful of table salt and washing that down with a warm protein shake is not the bizz.
I've been academically convinced on many occasions as to why I should practice this again, but for me, based on my personal experience, where I was a PW Nazi, it just doesn't seem worth it. However, I would recommend trying it.
NSCA - CSCS
06-24-2009, 06:10 PM
06-24-2009, 06:21 PM
Personally, I do have a fair amount of carbs and protein post workout. It DOES help me. At age of 36 and being in the gym since I was 11 I have tried many approached. PWO nutrition is vital. I dont care if you have a steak and yam but I think most will benefit from carbs/proteins to help speed recovery. That window of the insulin spike helps get protein shuttled into the muscle as well. Great time to take your creatine as well.
Nutrient timing is NOT a source. It's a nutritional understanding of your body chemistry. Sourced are Layne Norton, Jose Antonio, Robbie Durand and Carlon Colker to name a few. Not to mention the experiential data from many that benefit from this timed eating. I don't think Leucine is a fair example of not getting gains from pwo nutrition. It's pretty overrated. I would suggest a quality protein and waxy carb source.
06-24-2009, 06:22 PM
06-24-2009, 06:25 PM
06-24-2009, 06:43 PM
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