Test boosters attempting to deconstruct

[matthias7]

Like to start looking at the composition of test boosters and their effect. The idea is by looking at the composition of a booster you have some idea what it is up to. Otherwise we are endlessly cycling through product.

This is not about AI. No estrogen blocking here.

Tribulus is a common component with special emphasis on protodioscin. Some evidence IV... so might go well as a TD if you could get it pure enough.

25R-Dione Spirost-4-Ene, 6-Dione, (25R) is also a good contender. Mass FX is based on this and Divanil. Divanil to free test.

Icariin is an old fav.

I'm not bothered about homeostasis stuff/ anti-oxidants here, so secoisolariciresinol and matairesinol which is in Mass FX is probably more about PCT.

Hmmm ... its a big world out there. I'm currently testing out Force I "Max out" and icariin 25R base. I have no idea was 25R is really.

Anyway input welcome.

 

[matthias7]

Oh and T911 uses a mild anaboic the famous 1-androsterone in 1-T I think.

Two questions
1. Has anyone used Hi Tech?. there are doing alot of test boosters based around 25R.

2. Is it me or has there been a shift away from Tribulus, Maca, Long Jack, Coleus and so on?

 

[BoyFromAus]

awesome thread man.

Just to add my $0.02AU
I believe Divanil is derived mostly from Stinging Nettle Root (let's call it SNR). SNR is used to treat prostate enlargement. It binds to SHBG (therefore disallowing testosterone to bind to it). I know it also does something to reduce DHT which is why it's used as a hair loss treatment too. But relevant to this thread, it increases free-test through those two means.

 

[joeflex73]

Oh and T911 uses a mild anaboic the famous 1-androsterone in 1-T I think.

Two questions
1. Has anyone used Hi Tech?. there are doing alot of test boosters based around 25R.

2. Is it me or has there been a shift away from Tribulus, Maca, Long Jack, Coleus and so on?

1. Not sure about High Tech, but I know companies use 25R-dione while MassFX has the -diol, a much more potent version. Only MFx has the -diol.

2. From my understanding, those alone don't seem as effective as AI's and SNR based test boosters. Not that they did nothing, but they became secondary to SNR and AI's.

 

[matthias7]

Okay I'll make MassFX the next port of call. Dianabol Hi Tech looks interesting combining 25R with Tribulus.

What you are basically saying is go MassFX because only that uses the diol and the SNR. Using 'SNR's is a point well made indeed, for a rep from AX!

The problem with AIs is that if you not PCT your knocking out estrogens. There seems to be 2 schools of thought here:
1. AIs don't do anything unless is a genuine SERM based PCT.
2. AIs trigger a feedback loop because the body detects low estrogens and starts making more test.

If 2 is correct sure it will be effective. If your natural test levels are low (post cycle) ...okay, but otherwise I dunno if you're trying to trip a feedback loop on normal test levels. My point is simply this if it isn't effective no point in using it, if it is effective then it appears a bit risky non-PCT.

Could try and 'PCT' on pregnenolone????

Anyway you've sold your product ... was it AI or AX doing the 5% discount codes?

 

[matthias7]

The idea of this thread is not to say one test boost is better than another but to look to combine them where they are complimentary. SNR + normal test boost - agreed thats the way to go.

 

[matthias7]

SNR ... stinging nettle root. Never heard the acronym well BfA made it here.

How effective is Divanil vs. stinging nettle root extract? If SNR extract just isn't very effective by comparison then AX have this one wrapped up.

 

[Steveoph]

Interesting thread. the MW of Protodioscin is over 1k, so wouldn't work TD.
Maca, LJ and Coleus still have their fair share of users.

 

[matthias7]

Hmmm... yeah and icariin is also a bit big and the extraction its not pure enough.

But... I spotted divanil 95% powder form on Nutra... :cheers: that is small enough to go TD, but I'm not really sure that it is worth it. Is bio-availability a big issue with this?

I think the nutra horny maca long jack stack looks gtg

 

[BoyFromAus]

SNR ... stinging nettle root. Never heard the acronym well BfA made it here.

How effective is Divanil vs. stinging nettle root extract? If SNR extract just isn't very effective by comparison then AX have this one wrapped up.

i'm not sure how effective it is.. But while I was googling reviews for AX, I noticed a 2 - 3 reviews saying things like 'I got an equal effect just using Stinging Nettle Root tablets'.

However AX seems to have a high content of Divanil compared to the SNR tablets which I was looking through. So I think that's where they might've got this one.

 

[BoyFromAus]

btw, what does 25R do?... does it force more total test production?

 

[matthias7]

I'm about to find out. The AX rep seems not to think so unless its the AX product. From memory the Russians seem to come in somewhere ... if nootropics are anything to go by then thats good.

Does it work. Do the old beard mometer...

Accurate beard ometer test...
Don't shave for a week / measure beard growth...
Do test booster...
Don't shave for a week.... could you use your beard as a scarf???

Beard growth and test production seem to be linked. Dunno if its proportional - fun if it was.

This time next week I'll have an answer. Anyone want to beat me to it?

 

[UKStrength]

Another great thread mate! These are becoming regular!

What about fenugreek-based supplements e.g. Testofen?

Latest research seems to show no anabolic effects (Bushey et al. 2009). Massive decrease in DHT though! I'll make my own decision, since I'll be using PP's Phyto-testosterone during my PCT.

Fenugreek is herb that has several purported uses in animal models. Despite no substantiated claims in human research models, fenugreek has been marketed in dietary products as having anabolic potential for resistance trained athletes. PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to investigate the potential anabolic effects of fenugreek extract supplementation in conjunction with a controlled resistance training program. METHODS: Forty-five resistance trained males were matched by fat free mass and randomly assigned to ingest in a double blind manner capsules containing 500mg of a placebo (PL) (N = 24, 20.1 ± 2.6 yr, 85.5 ±13.4 kg, 177.00 ± 6.1 cm) or fenugreek extract (FE) (N = 21, 21.4 ± 2.95 yr, 89.9 ±18.8 kg, 178.00 ± 6.27 cm). Subjects participated in a supervised 4-day per week periodized resistance-training program for 8 weeks in conjunction with supplementation. Venous blood samples were obtained using standard procedures at baseline (PRE), 4 weeks, and 8-weeks (POST). Serum analyses included cortisol, insulin, leptin, free testosterone, estrogen, and DHT. Statistical analyses utilized a two-way ANOVA with repeated measures for serum hormone responses (p<0.05). RESULTS: A significant interaction (p<0.05) between groups for DHT was observed for PL (PRE: 1187±482; POST: 1258±493 pg/ml) and FE (PRE: 1263±496; POST: 1144±447 pg/ml) indicating that supplementation resulted in significant decrease in DHT levels. Significant differences in DHT responses from supplementation showed a -9.42% change for the FE group accompanied with a 5.98% increase in the PL group. No significant effects for groups or interactions were observed for the anabolic hormones free testosterone and estrogen (p<0.05). Additionally, no significant main effects for groups or time were observed for the metabolic hormones insulin, cortisol, and leptin (p<0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Supplementation of fenugreek extract resulted in a decrease in serum DHT levels in comparison to placebo. However, other anabolic and metabolic hormone analyses were not affected by supplementation. We conclude that in conjunction with structured resistance training, supplementation of fenugreek extract does not appear to affect hormonal status in resistance trained males and shows no anabolic potential as has been purported. This study was supported by INDUS BIOTECH

 

[joeflex73]

Okay I'll make MassFX the next port of call. Dianabol Hi Tech looks interesting combining 25R with Tribulus.

What you are basically saying is go MassFX because only that uses the diol and the SNR. Using 'SNR's is a point well made indeed, for a rep from AX!

The problem with AIs is that if you not PCT your knocking out estrogens. There seems to be 2 schools of thought here:
1. AIs don't do anything unless is a genuine SERM based PCT.
2. AIs trigger a feedback loop because the body detects low estrogens and starts making more test.

If 2 is correct sure it will be effective. If your natural test levels are low (post cycle) ...okay, but otherwise I dunno if you're trying to trip a feedback loop on normal test levels. My point is simply this if it isn't effective no point in using it, if it is effective then it appears a bit risky non-PCT.

Could try and 'PCT' on pregnenolone????

Anyway you've sold your product ... was it AI or AX doing the 5% discount codes?

Well, MassFX has Divanil, and Divanil is an SNR extract. The new formula should be even more diesel. Doesn't look like either of us has that code right now Although I could be wrong.

SNR ... stinging nettle root. Never heard the acronym well BfA made it here.

How effective is Divanil vs. stinging nettle root extract? If SNR extract just isn't very effective by comparison then AX have this one wrapped up.

They can be the same, if they are extracted right. 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran is one of the lignans extracted from SNR. Just taking the root or an extract won't be the same.

I'm about to find out. The AX rep seems not to think so unless its the AX product. From memory the Russians seem to come in somewhere ... if nootropics are anything to go by then thats good.

Does it work. Do the old beard mometer...

Accurate beard ometer test...
Don't shave for a week / measure beard growth...
Do test booster...
Don't shave for a week.... could you use your beard as a scarf???

Beard growth and test production seem to be linked. Dunno if its proportional - fun if it was.

This time next week I'll have an answer. Anyone want to beat me to it?

25 r-diol is chlorogenin (I think).Where the Russians come in is some tests with a 6-keto version in the '70's. One of the studies: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1028596.

The sapogenin in MassFX is a 6-hydroxy instead and is more active than the version used in the Russian tests. It's properties are highly anabolic and weakly androgenic, but it does not effect test production negatively (part of why it can be used in PCT safely). It also gives a small boost to LH.

 

[Steveoph]

Hmmm... yeah and icariin is also a bit big and the extraction its not pure enough.

But... I spotted divanil 95% powder form on Nutra... :cheers: that is small enough to go TD, but I'm not really sure that it is worth it. Is bio-availability a big issue with this?

I think the nutra horny maca long jack stack looks gtg

No real oral Bioavailability issues with divanil, however many people want a prolonged released of it and hence consume it with food; however a TD would give this same effect without the possibility of digestion interfering with the product. DS released a time-released capsule in their latest ActX so this has been taken care of orally.

 

[marco wolf]

Another great thread mate! These are becoming regular!

What about fenugreek-based supplements e.g. Testofen?

Latest research seems to show no anabolic effects (Bushey et al. 2009). Massive decrease in DHT though! I'll make my own decision, since I'll be using PP's Phyto-testosterone during my PCT.

Fenugreek is herb that has several purported uses in animal models. Despite no substantiated claims in human research models, fenugreek has been marketed in dietary products as having anabolic potential for resistance trained athletes. PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to investigate the potential anabolic effects of fenugreek extract supplementation in conjunction with a controlled resistance training program. METHODS: Forty-five resistance trained males were matched by fat free mass and randomly assigned to ingest in a double blind manner capsules containing 500mg of a placebo (PL) (N = 24, 20.1 ± 2.6 yr, 85.5 ±13.4 kg, 177.00 ± 6.1 cm) or fenugreek extract (FE) (N = 21, 21.4 ± 2.95 yr, 89.9 ±18.8 kg, 178.00 ± 6.27 cm). Subjects participated in a supervised 4-day per week periodized resistance-training program for 8 weeks in conjunction with supplementation. Venous blood samples were obtained using standard procedures at baseline (PRE), 4 weeks, and 8-weeks (POST). Serum analyses included cortisol, insulin, leptin, free testosterone, estrogen, and DHT. Statistical analyses utilized a two-way ANOVA with repeated measures for serum hormone responses (p<0.05). RESULTS: A significant interaction (p<0.05) between groups for DHT was observed for PL (PRE: 1187±482; POST: 1258±493 pg/ml) and FE (PRE: 1263±496; POST: 1144±447 pg/ml) indicating that supplementation resulted in significant decrease in DHT levels. Significant differences in DHT responses from supplementation showed a -9.42% change for the FE group accompanied with a 5.98% increase in the PL group. No significant effects for groups or interactions were observed for the anabolic hormones free testosterone and estrogen (p<0.05). Additionally, no significant main effects for groups or time were observed for the metabolic hormones insulin, cortisol, and leptin (p<0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Supplementation of fenugreek extract resulted in a decrease in serum DHT levels in comparison to placebo. However, other anabolic and metabolic hormone analyses were not affected by supplementation. We conclude that in conjunction with structured resistance training, supplementation of fenugreek extract does not appear to affect hormonal status in resistance trained males and shows no anabolic potential as has been purported. This study was supported by INDUS BIOTECH

I wonder which extract it was. There are a few of them, and this abstract wasn't specific as to which one it was.

 

[matthias7]

I wonder which extract it was. There are a few of them, and this abstract wasn't specific as to which one it was.

Thats easy to answer. PP don't do rubbish (UK to US translation = junk). So whatever strain/ extract variation there is PP will be using top grade. However haven't heard from PP for ages - wheres Trauma gone? Maybe they can give a more concrete answer.

Did I imagine it or did PP do a TD of phyto-test? Did they advertize it then with draw it? Eric are you there?

 

[matthias7]

Well, MassFX has Divanil, and Divanil is an SNR extract. The new formula should be even more diesel. Doesn't look like either of us has that code right now Although I could be wrong.

Getting a discount code would be great! The one I was thinking of was AI's code. The AI rep is on my friends list.

 

[UKStrength]

Thats easy to answer. PP don't do rubbish (UK to US translation = junk). So whatever strain/ extract variation there is PP will be using top grade...

I think so too, and now that PP's products are finally on UK shores it'll be easier to test them out

 

[matthias7]

Agreed! :cheers:

I wish they'd get their stacks sorted out with resellers or do free international shipment for us guys (like USP hint, hint). Their transdermals are way cheaper than any UK based ones (DHEA and Preg. Biovea just come out).

Sorry off-topic.

 

[marco wolf]

Thats easy to answer. PP don't do rubbish (UK to US translation = junk). So whatever strain/ extract variation there is PP will be using top grade. However haven't heard from PP for ages - wheres Trauma gone? Maybe they can give a more concrete answer.

Did I imagine it or did PP do a TD of phyto-test? Did they advertize it then with draw it? Eric are you there?

Phyto-Test uses Testofen. I was talking about the study you posted. It was not specific about which extract they tested. There are a few more than just the "fenusides" in Testofen.

 

[matthias7]

Boy its really late and I'm tired.

I could email them and find out, could pick up the paper because the source should be clearly stated in the materials and methods or could just leave and say they might have got the wrong stuff. You could also say sample size too small.

What I am going to say is that its late here I just can't be bothered and for some fenugreek will work and for others not. Still looks to be useful PCT from an anabolic cycle, you don't want DHT hanging around.

Sorry can't be more helpful.

 

[marco wolf]

Boy its really late and I'm tired.

I could email them and find out, could pick up the paper because the source should be clearly stated in the materials and methods or could just leave and say they might have got the wrong stuff. You could also say sample size too small.

What I am going to say is that its late here I just can't be bothered and for some fenugreek will work and for others not. Still looks to be useful PCT from an anabolic cycle, you don't want DHT hanging around.

Sorry can't be more helpful.

The point I am making is that you just can't assume that Testofen was the fenugreek extract tested. It's also misleading not to specify exactly what you are testing, other than a "fenugreek extract."

 

[Steveoph]

Matthias PP has never made a TD testofen product. They did switch from liquid (oral) to capsules. Emailing them will get you a reply same-day.

 

[matthias7]

The point I am making is that you just can't assume that Testofen was the fenugreek extract tested. It's also misleading not to specify exactly what you are testing, other than a "fenugreek extract."

True .. it will be in the 'Materials and Methods' section of the paper. I think we can conclude it does have its uses , getting rid of DHT is no bad thing.

 

[matthias7]

Matthias PP has never made a TD testofen product. They did switch from liquid (oral) to capsules. Emailing them will get you a reply same-day.

Okay wishful thinking on my part then.

Any dicyclopentanone is something we've overlooked. Its in Anabol-5 and Hi-techs Dianabol. Anabol-5 looks interesting (Dianabol is steriod I think than test booster).

 

[UKStrength]

Agreed! :cheers:

I wish they'd get their stacks sorted out with resellers or do free international shipment for us guys (like USP hint, hint). Their transdermals are way cheaper than any UK based ones (DHEA and Preg. Biovea just come out).

Sorry off-topic.

USP labs do free international shipping???

 

[matthias7]

Yes for orders over $250.

It can work out cheaper but depends on what you are buying, Nutra's Asteriod stack is the cheapest USP product around. If you're doing a bulk shipment of say PowerFull it would be cost effective. Prime ain't a big seller on this forum. Its a pity because you would have thought it would be an excellent test booster.

 

[BoyFromAus]

i'm still lost on 25R-diol... from what i've read from Anabolic Xtreme, it seems to be some type of testosterone mimicker?

Can someone explain please?

 

[UKStrength]

Yes for orders over $250.

It can work out cheaper but depends on what you are buying, Nutra's Asteriod stack is the cheapest USP product around. If you're doing a bulk shipment of say PowerFull it would be cost effective. Prime ain't a big seller on this forum. Its a pity because you would have thought it would be an excellent test booster.

Cheers mate, I'll bear that in mind. I'm undecided over which hGH-boosting supp to go with as my staple (IGF-2 or PowerFULL), after trialing the new PF I'll be in a better position to decide.

It is strange about Prime considering the feedback its received.

 

[matthias7]

i'm still lost on 25R-diol... from what i've read from Anabolic Xtreme, it seems to be some type of testosterone mimicker?

Can someone explain please?

I am sorry I can't but I am trying the stuff right now after using icariin for a while. My first impression ... very strange :suspect:

BTW AX recommend Mass FX on cycle :dunno:

 

[matthias7]

Scratch the above answer. My immediate take on 25R was its a bit wierd. I'll try later 'cause I want to get stuck into the A-steriod stack (USP).

USP say for 6 weeks :suspect: I say 4 weeks 'hardcore' dose. USP are probably right but 6 weeks is ages. Basically I'd just got the shipment

So in summary I'll load 25R (iForce Max Out) over the top of the Asteriod stack when I'm a bit more settled into it and see if I get the same sides. No trouble with Asteriod so far - looks good, feels good.

 

[BoyFromAus]

Scratch the above answer. My immediate take on 25R was its a bit wierd. I'll try later 'cause I want to get stuck into the A-steriod stack (USP).

USP say for 6 weeks :suspect: I say 4 weeks 'hardcore' dose. USP are probably right but 6 weeks is ages. Basically I'd just got the shipment

So in summary I'll load 25R (iForce Max Out) over the top of the Asteriod stack when I'm a bit more settled into it and see if I get the same sides. No trouble with Asteriod so far - looks good, feels good.

cool man... you should make a log on the Asteroid stack.

 

[joeflex73]

I am sorry I can't but I am trying the stuff right now after using icariin for a while. My first impression ... very strange :suspect:

BTW AX recommend Mass FX on cycle :dunno:

Depends on the cycle. Some PH's are effected by SHBG, some aren't. 3ad is one. I think The One would be another, since both are DHT based. That's why MassFX can be used on cycle sometimes. During PCT, it can be used as your test booster, to get your body running back to normal.

25R-diol is a natural anabolic. It's exact mode of operation, I am not 100% sure on. I can say, that whatever it does, it makes a helluva difference and is one of the reasons MassFX has such a following. There are other boosters out there that work by inhibiting SHBG that haven't shown the success that MassFX has with users.

 

[matthias7]

Better report back here. I'm using Prime right now. Good stuff. I'm using the full asteriod stack.

Prime ain't a test booster however - it doesn't increase test. The info inside is clear about that. It has a Tribulus extract in it and another plant extract. The studies it conducted say it provides increased strength but doesn't affect the pituitary-gonadal axis. You could interprit their non-Tribulus plant extract description as effectively a nootropic (its all in the mind). I'm not sure they would agree.

My experience: It feels like a herd of wild horses within you. Okay I exaggerate but it feels an urge to workout that sort of thing. I like it. It is a bit expensive and there are cheaper (much cheaper) product out there, but its reassuring no hormones are involved. This means it will stack easily.

So.... I stacked it with T911 and so far so good. Long term you'd need to assess whether Prime was cost effective, viz. if it ain't increasing test whats the point? Short term - all good.