Kidney Stones and excessive protein

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  1. Angry Kidney Stones and excessive protein


    Just got diagnosed with 2 kidney stones...... Dang it.

    One of the first thing the doc (Urologist) asked me since he knows I'm a bodybuilder is "I imagine you eat a lot of protein correct?" . Of course, but nothing crazy (200 grams/day, I'm 200 pounds 11%). He told me he has seen this time and time again (bodybuilder type -kidney stones).

    I have no family history at all. So I went home and googled. Sure enough, excessive protein (and calcium) can be culprits along with dehydration (I drink a gallon of water a day) anda few other things.

    How is it that as a community, we dont see this more often?

  2. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    i would like to know what he would've said if he didn't know about your protein intake and what not. honestly.

    the majority of nowadays doctors are so quick to come to a final conclusion at the first sight of a possibility. they treat their patients more like cattle than individual people.

  3. High protein diets have been associated with kidney pathology.
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  4. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by russy_russ View Post
    High protein diets have been associated with kidney pathology.
    regardless of water intake? i imagine adjusting water intake to compliment and support higher levels of protein intake should offset any potential negative effects?
  5. LactoseLou
    LactoseLou's Avatar

    I developed kidney problems as well it was due to high protein diet and creatine intake. Apparently my doctor knew it was protein because he saw my urine was bubbly he said it was called proteineura or something.

    I stopped creatine all together, I did some research and Creatinine levels is associated with kidney problems.

    What I felt was headaches and back pains. Now I only eat fish with no spices and I only eat red meat like 1 time a week and it has to be really lean.

    I cannot have junk foods, dark sodas and other stuff with high saturated fats.

    Sucks ass to be honest but It was my own fault you experiment with yourself when you take supplements.

    oh ya I was perfectly healthy before.
  6. LactoseLou
    LactoseLou's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    regardless of water intake? i imagine adjusting water intake to compliment and support higher levels of protein intake should offset any potential negative effects?
    Why would you think that?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    i would like to know what he would've said if he didn't know about your protein intake and what not. honestly.

    the majority of nowadays doctors are so quick to come to a final conclusion at the first sight of a possibility. they treat their patients more like cattle than individual people.
    i agree. my buddy was diagnosed with a herniated disc by his doc by just saying his pain was in his lower back and buttocks area.. no MRI or nothing...

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Just got diagnosed with 2 kidney stones...... Dang it.

    One of the first thing the doc (Urologist) asked me since he knows I'm a bodybuilder is "I imagine you eat a lot of protein correct?" . Of course, but nothing crazy (200 grams/day, I'm 200 pounds 11%). He told me he has seen this time and time again (bodybuilder type -kidney stones).

    I have no family history at all. So I went home and googled. Sure enough, excessive protein (and calcium) can be culprits along with dehydration (I drink a gallon of water a day) anda few other things.

    How is it that as a community, we dont see this more often?
    Some people are just simply more prone to their development. Dehydration is by far the most common cause of renal stones. The best thing to do is to strain your urine (with a urinary strainer given by the urologist) and attempt to catch the stone itself. You can then have it tested for etiology. Calcium formation is another fairly common cause.

    I would work to maintain an adequate hydration as a means of overall prevention. As i said though, some people are just much more prone to their development.

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  9. I have heard of this several times. I would increase your water intake and supplement with cranberry extract. Back off the protein a little bit and maybe switch from whey concentrate to whey isolate. Also if you are bringing down your protein intake maybe add in some BCAA's as I have always considered that super protein anyways

  10. All good advice. Thanks. I am just in awe that there are not more bb'ers plagued by this. Again, I'm only a 200 grams/protein a day guy where as some consume 400 grams/day potentiating their situation even moreso. Must be just bad luck.

  11. I have had kidney stones in the past, funny enough, when I was taking time away from lifting. I had to have the laser surgery to remove it. Take in as much water as possible in attempts pass it as quickly as possible.
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  12. how did you guys know you had it??,..

    were you all actually feeling pain in the kidney, or was it just something the doc pointed out in a random checkup?

  13. I woke up in the middle of an attack. It was a rough day. I remember walking into the hospital saying, something hurts. Wasnt as excruciating as I would have expected. Then they said it was too big to pass, so they would have to "go in" and break it up.
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  14. It seems like everytime I go to the Dr, no matter what, it has something to do with my bodybuilding.

    Blood pressure- what supplements are you on?
    anxiety- what supplements are you on?
    stomach cramps- what supplements are you on?
    back pain- why do you workout? You're big enough....by the way, what supplemts are you on?
    Sleep apnea- your neck is so muscular it's contricting your airway (serious)

    It looks like my quest for size and health is killing me!

  15. Here we go again..

    Yah I think there is definitely some relation between very high protein diet and kidney stones. If you take in too much excess protein and or not enough water then there would be a greater chance of difficulty. Knowing how much you should take is relative to body type and how intensely you work out. I am 240 and am fairly efficient (endo) so I find that anywhere from 230 to 270 grams to be sufficient.

    Your right though 200 grams does not seem excessive...
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  16. I thought a felt some pain in my kidney area today, and I haven't been drinking as much water as I used to...looks like I'm going to have to up the water intake and hope it was just back pain. Yikes.

    I think one day I checked and I was taking in 210g of protein a day or so. I'm 130-135lbs, is it overkill? I just try to have protein every 3-4 hours.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by majinbijiita View Post
    I thought a felt some pain in my kidney area today, and I haven't been drinking as much water as I used to...looks like I'm going to have to up the water intake and hope it was just back pain. Yikes.

    I think one day I checked and I was taking in 210g of protein a day or so. I'm 130-135lbs, is it overkill? I just try to have protein every 3-4 hours.
    Sounds like it might be a bit high... it's all about utiizing the amount you take in and drinking lots of water to help digest any excess.
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  18. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by bigrobbierob View Post
    It seems like everytime I go to the Dr, no matter what, it has something to do with my bodybuilding.

    Blood pressure- what supplements are you on?
    anxiety- what supplements are you on?
    stomach cramps- what supplements are you on?
    back pain- why do you workout? You're big enough....by the way, what supplemts are you on?
    Sleep apnea- your neck is so muscular it's contricting your airway (serious)
    How do I put this lightly...

    You need a new dr. He's an idiot.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    How do I put this lightly...

    You need a new dr. He's an idiot.
    Or maybe he's just trying to get a full picture? Supplements can have a variety of effects. Eg. if you were anxious, and you had been taking a fatloss pill with a good dose of Yohimbine, it might be prudent to cease that supplement and see if your symptoms go away. The doc is just trying to get a relevant medical history, and as long as he considers all aspects, not just your supplementation, I don't see any issues with this line of questioning.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by purebred View Post
    How do I put this lightly...

    You need a new dr. He's an idiot.
    It's not the same doctor!

    Some of them were the emergency clinic, I see someone different about every time I go in.

    BP was one Dr
    anxiety another one
    cramps and back pain were clinic
    apnea was the sleep lab
  21. LactoseLou
    LactoseLou's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by majinbijiita View Post
    I thought a felt some pain in my kidney area today, and I haven't been drinking as much water as I used to...looks like I'm going to have to up the water intake and hope it was just back pain. Yikes.

    I think one day I checked and I was taking in 210g of protein a day or so. I'm 130-135lbs, is it overkill? I just try to have protein every 3-4 hours.
    you could have pancreatitis as well...it depends on your diet if you drink and smoke a lot or drink plenty of dark or colored drinks.

    how much protein do you take in 1 sitting?

    Many times Kidney pains are due to things like dark sodas, high saturated fats, high proteins, Creatine intake turning to creatinine etc.

    To be safe just drink 1 scoop in your shake and sip the shake don't down it. also eating small meals through out the day and not going overboard on the protein on 1 sitting.


    I eat 6 to 8 small meals I lost some size but Im still muscular and lean but I would rather be healthy then super buff.

  22. could taking too much protien in 1 hit be more likly to cause kidney problems,
    ie big protien shakes

  23. Look into Chanca Piedra and other kidney products...

    Solaray Kidney SP6

    Nature's Way Kidney/Bladder

    Baseline Nutritionals Stone Breaker


    You can fix this stuff yourself if you want to.

    Then maybe buy some Raw apple cider vinegar and Lemons. Not lemon juice with preservatives, but lemons...

  24. I understand that bodybuilders need a higher protein intake to keep their body in a positive nitrogen balance to increase amino acid synthesis, however there has been scientific evidence that between 1.2g to 1.7g of protein per kg of body weight is sufficient for muscle building.

    So... if you weigh 240 lbs = 130 to 184 g of protein is the appropriate range. Eating higher protein values than that is excess and will place more strain on your kidneys and more likely to cause kidney stones.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by workingman16 View Post
    I understand that bodybuilders need a higher protein intake to keep their body in a positive nitrogen balance to increase amino acid synthesis, however there has been scientific evidence that between 1.2g to 1.7g of protein per kg of body weight is sufficient for muscle building.

    So... if you weigh 240 lbs = 130 to 184 g of protein is the appropriate range. Eating higher protein values than that is excess and will place more strain on your kidneys and more likely to cause kidney stones.
    That's a range more for endurance athletes than bodybuilders. Most of the studies done didn't exactly use a training protocol that any of us would find effective.

    I don't think anything more than 1g/lb. is necessary. If you're hydrated and not predisposed to kidney failure or electrolyte imbalances or other medical conditions, there is no reason you can't keep your intake that high. However, EXTREME ratios (anything over 1.25g/lb) is really just overkill and not delivering anything beneficial.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by joeflex73 View Post
    That's a range more for endurance athletes than bodybuilders. Most of the studies done didn't exactly use a training protocol that any of us would find effective.

    I don't think anything more than 1g/lb. is necessary. If you're hydrated and not predisposed to kidney failure or electrolyte imbalances or other medical conditions, there is no reason you can't keep your intake that high. However, EXTREME ratios (anything over 1.25g/lb) is really just overkill and not delivering anything beneficial.
    I definitely agree there... that is the rancge I was speaking of. Just take what you need. The most important thing in this sport is to know your body and it's needs. Oh yah and body composition is also a factor. For instance perhaps we should calculate our baseline intake on lean body mass. Maybe 1.25 per lb of lean body mass.
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  27. Whacked, I hope you get well soon. Also, thanks for posting this as I was never sure if higher protein intake could have a negative effect on the kidneys.

  28. I try to take my protein from whole foods...protein powders always make my Creatinine levels sky rocket..one doc told me that BCAAs can cause the same problem.
  29. LactoseLou
    LactoseLou's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnieFreeze View Post
    I try to take my protein from whole foods...protein powders always make my Creatinine levels sky rocket..one doc told me that BCAAs can cause the same problem.
    Yup same thing happen to me, I am not against protein powders but from my over use of it and creatine, and bcaas it did a number on me. The creatinine levels is what was causing it for me.
    I stick to whole foods now. I suggest to others don't gulp your shake sip it while relaxing. I seen a few bodybuilders do this they will make a shake and sip it and no gulp it down.

  30. It sad but I understand why.

    What I like about bodybuilding is the unification of science and diet.

    One problem is the advanced state of supplements. Sometime what happens is the development of a 'drug' which passed off as a supplement, the other is the shear access to pharmaceutical quality 'supplements'. The other is the bodybuilders wish to take things to extremes. The underlying issue and this is what concerns me, bodybuilders should be red-hot on biochemistry and metabolism - many are not its just one product here one there. The only question asked is 'what are teh gains?'

    Quote Originally Posted by bigrobbierob View Post
    It seems like everytime I go to the Dr, no matter what, it has something to do with my bodybuilding.

    Blood pressure- what supplements are you on?
    anxiety- what supplements are you on?
    stomach cramps- what supplements are you on?
    back pain- why do you workout? You're big enough....by the way, what supplemts are you on?
    Sleep apnea- your neck is so muscular it's contricting your airway (serious)

    It looks like my quest for size and health is killing me!

  31. There is no question 130lbs - 5' 9'': erhh.. a super-model???

    Yeah 1.25g per pound max. Thats around 2.5grams per kilo - top end.

    If you're taking that dosage you've got to be making massive gains if not I'd cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I definitely agree there... that is the rancge I was speaking of. Just take what you need. The most important thing in this sport is to know your body and it's needs. Oh yah and body composition is also a factor. For instance perhaps we should calculate our baseline intake on lean body mass. Maybe 1.25 per lb of lean body mass.

  32. Quote Originally Posted by silverSurfer View Post
    Whacked, I hope you get well soon.
    Thanks buddy

  33. besides staying hydrated, are there any other preventative measures for kidney stones? this scares me.

  34. First off, let me say that I am sorry to hear that the OP had kidney stones, I hear they are no fun. That being said, let me just say that anyone that supplements with creatine will have high levels of creatinine when tested. Does this mean that their kidneys aren't working properly? Not necessarily. Being that creatinine is a product of creatine metabolism, people who supplement with it will likely have elevated levels of creatinine. Doctors just use creatinine clearance as a surrogate of kidney function because it is simple and under sedentary conditions, it is rapidly excreted. In addition, since creatine is a component of skeletal muscle, if people workout and thus breakdown muscle before a test, creatinine levels can be elevated. I am not saying that protein is not a contributor, but many other things (calcium, oxalates from vegetables and fruits) contribute as well.

  35. In most cases protein intake is NOT associated with kidney stones. Ecess protein only becomes an issure when impaired or damaged kideny issues are already present. H20 intake is essential . Also occasional drinking of distilled H20 will help to prevent this. Calcium is a salt ..distilled h2o removes salts from the body ....too much distilled water is bad even dangerous but moderate amounts say 1 gallon drank in one day every 2 weeks ...would possibly help. Just for the record many people think that bodybuilders consume way to much protein. An respected and professional example of this Dr Franco Columbou consumed .5g / lb of body weight his entire career and simply increased carb intake while bulking. Am i saying that his thoughts are correct and will work for all - no. His opinion should very well be a respected one though.

  36. A question along those lines, did the OP get BUN tested as well?

  37. Quote Originally Posted by steveironman View Post
    In most cases protein intake is NOT associated with kidney stones. Ecess protein only becomes an issure when impaired or damaged kideny issues are already present. H20 intake is essential . Also occasional drinking of distilled H20 will help to prevent this. Calcium is a salt ..distilled h2o removes salts from the body ....too much distilled water is bad even dangerous but moderate amounts say 1 gallon drank in one day every 2 weeks ...would possibly help. Just for the record many people think that bodybuilders consume way to much protein. An respected and professional example of this Dr Franco Columbou consumed .5g / lb of body weight his entire career and simply increased carb intake while bulking. Am i saying that his thoughts are correct and will work for all - no. His opinion should very well be a respected one though.
    I agree with everything said except for the distilled water being harmfull, I and almost everybody I know in this sport consume 2 litres or more distilled a day, more than half of what I consume is distilled. I have never heard any issues from this and I have been doing it for around 10 years. It's not that I disagree so much as I am unaware of any difficulty. I have heard this before about minerals getting washed away or something like that. I gotta say though my health is pretty exceptional as are the others I know who do this. I think in those 10 years I have been sick once or twice. I am interested in hearing more though. Oh there is one difference but I thought it was just age, my perspiration although profuse, has very little discernable odor. I saw this as a positive thing and had attributed it to my intake of distilled water.
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  38. Quote Originally Posted by bigrobbierob View Post
    Sleep apnea- your neck is so muscular it's contricting your airway (serious)
    damn, that sucks!

  39. Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeRows View Post
    damn, that sucks!
    Damn I have big traps does this mean I'm going to die in my sleep
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  40. Quote Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
    I agree with everything said except for the distilled water being harmfull, I and almost everybody I know in this sport consume 2 litres or more distilled a day, more than half of what I consume is distilled. I have never heard any issues from this and I have been doing it for around 10 years. It's not that I disagree so much as I am unaware of any difficulty. I have heard this before about minerals getting washed away or something like that. I gotta say though my health is pretty exceptional as are the others I know who do this. I think in those 10 years I have been sick once or twice. I am interested in hearing more though. Oh there is one difference but I thought it was just age, my perspiration although profuse, has very little discernable odor. I saw this as a positive thing and had attributed it to my intake of distilled water.
    My understanding is 2 fold re: excessive distilled water intake. Now i dont know exact amounts this would take but 1 is ,as u said, a mineral imbalance. The other and possibly more dangerous is an electrolyte imbalance. Interesting topic actually ....i wonder what would be considered "excessive intake" ? You seem to do fine with 2 liters + per day ...so i am curious what is excessive .
  

  
 

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