For those who workout in the AM, fasted...
- 02-05-2009, 03:59 PM
- 02-05-2009, 04:01 PM
I always use BCAAs before and during fasted AM cardio and love it...hasn't negatively impacted my fat loss at all...
- 02-05-2009, 04:01 PM
are you also doing a keto diet in general? then bcaas could kick you out. Might want to give 10g leucine a shot
02-05-2009, 04:05 PM
I'm going to start doing fasting cardio in the mornings 4-5 days a week so I'm not doing it close to the same time I'm lifting, to help lean out, and have more positive lean gains as well, since spring time is right around the corner. My only problem is getting up early enough to be to work on time at 8am....haha.
02-05-2009, 04:11 PM
02-05-2009, 04:18 PM
are you using any thermo/fat burner product during your a.m. cardio?
02-05-2009, 04:21 PM
I've been doing mine with nothing other than 2tbsp of Udos 369 mornings :P
02-05-2009, 04:26 PM
02-05-2009, 04:27 PM
02-05-2009, 04:29 PM
I keep finding it just about to go out of date at vitamin shoppe stores, and I cant resist it at half off
02-05-2009, 04:32 PM
02-05-2009, 04:40 PM
02-05-2009, 04:43 PM
Yes, I believe valine is glucogenic...
02-05-2009, 04:52 PM
I am going to have to experiment a bit. I don't mind a little glucose while I am lifting, but I would prefer to be significantly depleated during cardio.
02-05-2009, 04:55 PM
It is alanine that is involved in the gluconeogenic cycle, and is actually reductively animated from a pyruvate molecule - that particular process is bi-directional as well. This being said, the body can synthesize alanine from isoleucine, leucine and valine in conditions of hyperaminoacidemia. The key is timing with BCAAs, as dosing during the protein refractory period will lead to [possibly] gluconeogenesis in times of 'over-intake'. Much like many things, timing is key.
02-05-2009, 05:07 PM
Actually, there are many more than just alanine that is glucogenic. However, taking leucine has been shown time and time again to increase protein synthesis.
When I do my morning cardio, I like to do it completely fasted and then have the shake within 2 minutes of ending my cardio. I'm literally filling it up as soon as I step off the treadmill, still dripping in sweat. If you give the body aminos to burn, it will preferentially use them in my opinion. You won't burn enough muscle in 30 min to justify the fat loss. I say unless you're lifting, fasted cardio is the way to do it.
02-05-2009, 05:13 PM
I lift and do my cardio in the morning.
Generally I will eat a few slices of smoked turkey on the way to the gym. Right before I work out I take my beta-alanine, creatine mono cocktail, and during training I sip on my BCAA's.
After training I take my whey protein, before starting cardio. Do you think I would be able to get away with taking the whey after cardio, or am I running the risk of going catabolic?
02-05-2009, 05:30 PM
02-05-2009, 05:31 PM
Based on the studies I've read, sipping the BCAA during the workout should keep you pretty anabolic. There haven't been many studies which look at BCAA consumption in a low carb diet so I can't really say for sure. The most important thing to do in my opinion is whatever works for you. Take the whey if your stomach allows, wait if it doesn't. Some people can't do cardio with a belly full of liquid, me being one of them. I usually don't even drink water during cardio, just about 4-8 oz before and a ton after.
02-05-2009, 05:33 PM
I think you may have misunderstood the concept of 'refractory period' as well. Studies show that past a certain point, even with continual infusion of EAA/BCAA complexes, serum amino levels will increase while protein synthesis stagnates.
02-05-2009, 05:35 PM
02-05-2009, 05:45 PM
I suppose I should clarify. All amino [except Leucine and Lysine] acids can be deaminated to form intermediates of the Krebs/TCA cycle to varying degrees, and can therefore be translated into pyruvate. Pyruvate is then transanimated to form Alanine, carried to the liver, and begins the gluconeogenesis pathway. However, Alanine is the only amino acid which converts directly to glucose [obviously, via several hexokinase reactions].
Studies which display gluconeogenesis from AAs are saying that the AAs were first degraded to form intermediates in the TCA, then pyruvate, and then Alanine which is carried to the liver. Alanine is the source of AA-induced serum glucose increases via the Alanine-Pyruvate-Glucose transanimation pathway.
02-05-2009, 05:47 PM
A glucogenic amino acid is one that can be turned in to glucose through gluconeogenesis. There are many more than just alanine.
Also, a low carb diet where the body is in ketosis is greatly different than empty stomach or fasted state. I have read all the same studies. I said the studies don't look at low carb diet with BCAA consumption. Please don't twist things.
I do agree that timing is key though. Thats why I've said consuming before a workout on an empty stomach isn't the best idea.
02-05-2009, 05:51 PM
On another note, if anyone would be interested in starting a weekly discussion of some exercise physiology/nutrition scientific article, PM me. I've been dying to discuss the actual science behind these things and it seems this board has a LOT of scientific, knowledgeable people.
02-05-2009, 06:17 PM
I'm glad you guys chimed up...I was a little foggy on this subject myself...
02-05-2009, 07:40 PM
Alanine is the only amino acid which converts directly to glucose through transanimation/deanimation in the liver.All amino [except Leucine and Lysine] acids can be deaminated to form intermediates of the Krebs/TCA cycle to varying degrees, and can therefore be translated into pyruvate.
Incorrect. A ketogenic diet is merely a state of chronic glucose depravation whereby the body positions fatty acids [triglycerides, to be more specific] as the primary oxidative substrate and the production of ketone bodies ensues - in fact, this same hydrolyzation occurs in transient fasted-state training due to the upregulation of certain fat metabolic proteins. There is a vast amount of research I have placed on this board to verify this.Also, a low carb diet where the body is in ketosis is greatly different than empty stomach or fasted state. I have read all the same studies. I said the studies don't look at low carb diet with BCAA consumption. Please don't twist things.
02-05-2009, 07:41 PM
02-05-2009, 07:46 PM
02-05-2009, 07:50 PM
As I am sure you will disagree with the fasted-state v., keto comment, I will refer you here:
BIGGER, FASTER, STRONGER: Snag's Recipe for a [NATURAL] Recomp, Competition Style!
That is most likely not the best explanation I have given, however, I do not necessarily feel like explaining how fasted-state training transiently increases the mRNA transcription rate of fat metabolic proteins, their effect on IMTG oxidation, and how this produces the exact physiological processes of Ketosis in a transient fashion.
02-05-2009, 07:53 PM
I wonder as well whether my 2tbsp of Udos in the morning as my only nourishment besides water really does any good. I take it to aid in solubility of some of the vitamins + etc I take
02-05-2009, 08:00 PM
02-05-2009, 08:08 PM
i've only been doing fasted cardio lately, but i'll try this weekend to do fasted strength training as well
02-05-2009, 09:35 PM
Contact Me for INDIVIDUALIZED TRAINING AND NUTRITION
"Think like a Champion. Train like a Warrior. Live with a Purpose." - Rosie Chee
02-05-2009, 11:03 PM
I may forget the whole Xtend before/during training thing, and just supplement with it post-workout. I'd like to try it as an alternative to whey/pea protein.
02-06-2009, 09:56 AM
Yea I'm kind of lost????? So what did they end at? To take bcaaz before fasted Cardio or not? I'm lookin for fat loss and just ordered bcaaz cause I was thinkin it would help my fasted Cardio and workout. I'm also doin keto And am a lil confused on what was said since I'm not very good on the whole science thing. Any help would be good thanks.
02-06-2009, 02:18 PM
I honestly dont know if it knocks me out of ketosis but I didnt find any negative impact on my fat loss when taking BCAAs preworkout...
02-06-2009, 02:26 PM
well, see thats the thing, if you have a maintenance including activity of 3000 cals, and you only eat 2500 cals, whether or not you are in keto doesn't make a huge difference. The plus of keto is that you are less likely to loose muscle, but if you are only 500 below maintenance and its well spread out then you aren't very likely to loose much muscle anyhow.
02-07-2009, 08:08 AM
02-07-2009, 09:02 AM
god, i've taken 20mg of it, from the nutra caps
02-07-2009, 12:42 PM
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