For those who workout in the AM, fasted...

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    For those who workout in the AM, fasted...


    Do you take anything like Xtend before/during your workout?

    I've been doing fasted workouts for about a month now, and am LOVING the fat loss I'm achieving. Will the addition of BCAAs before/during training affect fat loss to any significant degree?


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    I always use BCAAs before and during fasted AM cardio and love it...hasn't negatively impacted my fat loss at all...

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    are you also doing a keto diet in general? then bcaas could kick you out. Might want to give 10g leucine a shot
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    I'm going to start doing fasting cardio in the mornings 4-5 days a week so I'm not doing it close to the same time I'm lifting, to help lean out, and have more positive lean gains as well, since spring time is right around the corner. My only problem is getting up early enough to be to work on time at 8am....haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    are you also doing a keto diet in general? then bcaas could kick you out. Might want to give 10g leucine a shot
    No sir!

    If I do go with Xtend, I'll also supplement it with Leucine.

    I'm thinking 4 scoops Xtend all-together before/during workout, along with 10g leucine.

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    are you using any thermo/fat burner product during your a.m. cardio?

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    I've been doing mine with nothing other than 2tbsp of Udos 369 mornings :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by capnsavem View Post
    are you using any thermo/fat burner product during your a.m. cardio?
    Genetically predisposed to high blood pressure. I try to avoid thermos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I've been doing mine with nothing other than 2tbsp of Udos 369 mornings :P
    The ideal mixture of Omega fatty acids?! You don't say!!


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    I keep finding it just about to go out of date at vitamin shoppe stores, and I cant resist it at half off
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    Quote Originally Posted by capnsavem View Post
    are you using any thermo/fat burner product during your a.m. cardio?
    I use:
    25mg ephedrine hcl
    10mg yohimbine hcl
    a 24 oz sugar free rockstar

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    are you also doing a keto diet in general? then bcaas could kick you out. Might want to give 10g leucine a shot
    BCAA's can kick you out of ketosis?

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    Yes, I believe valine is glucogenic...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo4Fun View Post
    Yes, I believe valine is glucogenic...
    I didn't realize that. I have stayed in keto while using the BCAA's thus far, I guess I am burning them adequately during training.

    I am going to have to experiment a bit. I don't mind a little glucose while I am lifting, but I would prefer to be significantly depleated during cardio.

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    It is alanine that is involved in the gluconeogenic cycle, and is actually reductively animated from a pyruvate molecule - that particular process is bi-directional as well. This being said, the body can synthesize alanine from isoleucine, leucine and valine in conditions of hyperaminoacidemia. The key is timing with BCAAs, as dosing during the protein refractory period will lead to [possibly] gluconeogenesis in times of 'over-intake'. Much like many things, timing is key.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    It is alanine that is involved in the gluconeogenic cycle, and is actually reductively animated from a pyruvate molecule - that particular process is bi-directional as well. This being said, the body can synthesize alanine from isoleucine, leucine and valine in conditions of hyperaminoacidemia. The key is timing with BCAAs, as dosing during the protein refractory period will lead to [possibly] gluconeogenesis in times of 'over-intake'. Much like many things, timing is key.

    Actually, there are many more than just alanine that is glucogenic. However, taking leucine has been shown time and time again to increase protein synthesis.

    When I do my morning cardio, I like to do it completely fasted and then have the shake within 2 minutes of ending my cardio. I'm literally filling it up as soon as I step off the treadmill, still dripping in sweat. If you give the body aminos to burn, it will preferentially use them in my opinion. You won't burn enough muscle in 30 min to justify the fat loss. I say unless you're lifting, fasted cardio is the way to do it.

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    I lift and do my cardio in the morning.

    Generally I will eat a few slices of smoked turkey on the way to the gym. Right before I work out I take my beta-alanine, creatine mono cocktail, and during training I sip on my BCAA's.

    After training I take my whey protein, before starting cardio. Do you think I would be able to get away with taking the whey after cardio, or am I running the risk of going catabolic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ozarkaBRAND View Post
    No sir!

    If I do go with Xtend, I'll also supplement it with Leucine.

    I'm thinking 4 scoops Xtend all-together before/during workout, along with 10g leucine.

    if u do this then your body will use them as fuel insted of using fat when ur fastd

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    Based on the studies I've read, sipping the BCAA during the workout should keep you pretty anabolic. There haven't been many studies which look at BCAA consumption in a low carb diet so I can't really say for sure. The most important thing to do in my opinion is whatever works for you. Take the whey if your stomach allows, wait if it doesn't. Some people can't do cardio with a belly full of liquid, me being one of them. I usually don't even drink water during cardio, just about 4-8 oz before and a ton after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wearedbleedblue View Post
    Actually, there are many more than just alanine that is glucogenic. However, taking leucine has been shown time and time again to increase protein synthesis.

    When I do my morning cardio, I like to do it completely fasted and then have the shake within 2 minutes of ending my cardio. I'm literally filling it up as soon as I step off the treadmill, still dripping in sweat. If you give the body aminos to burn, it will preferentially use them in my opinion. You won't burn enough muscle in 30 min to justify the fat loss. I say unless you're lifting, fasted cardio is the way to do it.
    No, it is just Alanine. Alanine is reductively animated to a pyruvate molecule, which is then carboxylated and the glyoclytic pathway begins. Alanine can be biosynthesized from leucine, isoleucine, and valine, however, particularly in times of hyperaminoacidemia.

    I think you may have misunderstood the concept of 'refractory period' as well. Studies show that past a certain point, even with continual infusion of EAA/BCAA complexes, serum amino levels will increase while protein synthesis stagnates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wearedbleedblue View Post
    Based on the studies I've read, sipping the BCAA during the workout should keep you pretty anabolic. There haven't been many studies which look at BCAA consumption in a low carb diet so I can't really say for sure. The most important thing to do in my opinion is whatever works for you. Take the whey if your stomach allows, wait if it doesn't. Some people can't do cardio with a belly full of liquid, me being one of them. I usually don't even drink water during cardio, just about 4-8 oz before and a ton after.
    Not to nitpick on your posts too much, but the vast majority of BCAA studies are done on empty stomachs and/or post 12-24h fasts, due to the fragility of testing.

    One merely needs to look in the materials/methods portion of most BCAA clinical trials.

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    I suppose I should clarify. All amino [except Leucine and Lysine] acids can be deaminated to form intermediates of the Krebs/TCA cycle to varying degrees, and can therefore be translated into pyruvate. Pyruvate is then transanimated to form Alanine, carried to the liver, and begins the gluconeogenesis pathway. However, Alanine is the only amino acid which converts directly to glucose [obviously, via several hexokinase reactions].

    Studies which display gluconeogenesis from AAs are saying that the AAs were first degraded to form intermediates in the TCA, then pyruvate, and then Alanine which is carried to the liver. Alanine is the source of AA-induced serum glucose increases via the Alanine-Pyruvate-Glucose transanimation pathway.

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    A glucogenic amino acid is one that can be turned in to glucose through gluconeogenesis. There are many more than just alanine.

    Also, a low carb diet where the body is in ketosis is greatly different than empty stomach or fasted state. I have read all the same studies. I said the studies don't look at low carb diet with BCAA consumption. Please don't twist things.

    I do agree that timing is key though. Thats why I've said consuming before a workout on an empty stomach isn't the best idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I suppose I should clarify. All amino [except Leucine and Lysine] acids can be deaminated to form intermediates of the Krebs/TCA cycle to varying degrees, and can therefore be translated into pyruvate. Pyruvate is then transanimated to form Alanine, carried to the liver, and begins the gluconeogenesis pathway. However, Alanine is the only amino acid which converts directly to glucose [obviously, via several hexokinase reactions].

    Studies which display gluconeogenesis from AAs are saying that the AAs were first degraded to form intermediates in the TCA, then pyruvate, and then Alanine which is carried to the liver. Alanine is the source of AA-induced serum glucose increases via the Alanine-Pyruvate-Glucose transanimation pathway.
    Agree. But in a low carb or fasted environment, many aminos will be broken down in to TCA intermediates due to the lack of available substrates. Once that happens, they can undergo transaminations/deaminations to get to glucose. I really think we're saying the same thing in different words and misunderstanding each other.

    On another note, if anyone would be interested in starting a weekly discussion of some exercise physiology/nutrition scientific article, PM me. I've been dying to discuss the actual science behind these things and it seems this board has a LOT of scientific, knowledgeable people.

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    I'm glad you guys chimed up...I was a little foggy on this subject myself...

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    Quote Originally Posted by wearedbleedblue View Post
    A glucogenic amino acid is one that can be turned in to glucose through gluconeogenesis. There are many more than just alanine.
    A glucogenic amino acid [there are 13, including 5 which are both ketogenic and glucogenic] is an amino acid which can have its carbon skeleton removed to form intermediates in the Krebs/TCA Cycle [primarily pyruvate]. As I said previously:

    All amino [except Leucine and Lysine] acids can be deaminated to form intermediates of the Krebs/TCA cycle to varying degrees, and can therefore be translated into pyruvate.
    Alanine is the only amino acid which converts directly to glucose through transanimation/deanimation in the liver.

    Also, a low carb diet where the body is in ketosis is greatly different than empty stomach or fasted state. I have read all the same studies. I said the studies don't look at low carb diet with BCAA consumption. Please don't twist things.
    Incorrect. A ketogenic diet is merely a state of chronic glucose depravation whereby the body positions fatty acids [triglycerides, to be more specific] as the primary oxidative substrate and the production of ketone bodies ensues - in fact, this same hydrolyzation occurs in transient fasted-state training due to the upregulation of certain fat metabolic proteins. There is a vast amount of research I have placed on this board to verify this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wearedbleedblue View Post
    Agree. But in a low carb or fasted environment, many aminos will be broken down in to TCA intermediates due to the lack of available substrates. Once that happens, they can undergo transaminations/deaminations to get to glucose. I really think we're saying the same thing in different words and misunderstanding each other.
    Quite true, which is what I said previously. Alanine is the only amino which undergoes direct conversion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wearedbleedblue View Post
    I do agree that timing is key though. Thats why I've said consuming before a workout on an empty stomach isn't the best idea.
    timing as well as quantity. taking 5g of bcaas is quite different than 20g. I'm still not 100% sure on how anabolic using BCAAs is because although they do increase short term anabolism the studies i've read showed that they also increased oxidation, leading to no net gain. I think again the timing + quantity is what is key, i think its possible that the right amount of BCAAs could kick your body into a more anabolic state, but that you need other proteins there to maintain it.
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    As I am sure you will disagree with the fasted-state v., keto comment, I will refer you here:

    BIGGER, FASTER, STRONGER: Snag's Recipe for a [NATURAL] Recomp, Competition Style!

    That is most likely not the best explanation I have given, however, I do not necessarily feel like explaining how fasted-state training transiently increases the mRNA transcription rate of fat metabolic proteins, their effect on IMTG oxidation, and how this produces the exact physiological processes of Ketosis in a transient fashion.

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    I wonder as well whether my 2tbsp of Udos in the morning as my only nourishment besides water really does any good. I take it to aid in solubility of some of the vitamins + etc I take
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    Why you shouldn't eat breakfast

    Here, again. I am very tired, so you can excuse me for the regurgitations.

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    i've only been doing fasted cardio lately, but i'll try this weekend to do fasted strength training as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozarkaBRAND View Post
    Do you take anything like Xtend before/during your workout?

    I've been doing fasted workouts for about a month now, and am LOVING the fat loss I'm achieving. Will the addition of BCAAs before/during training affect fat loss to any significant degree?
    Almost ALL of my training is done first thing fasted (breakfast after). I take my first thing in the morning supplements (IGF-2, Lipotrophin-PM, and OsteoSport), preworkout 80 min-pre-resistance session (RPM), and creatine 30 min-pre-resistance session (NeoVar Recomped). I only drink water during my training sessions. I personally don't notice any difference in fat loss etc. by training first thing; I just prefer it because it starts my day off. It's an individual preference thing IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guejsn View Post
    Almost ALL of my training is done first thing fasted (breakfast after). I take my first thing in the morning supplements (IGF-2, Lipotrophin-PM, and OsteoSport), preworkout 80 min-pre-resistance session (RPM), and creatine 30 min-pre-resistance session (NeoVar Recomped). I only drink water during my training sessions. I personally don't notice any difference in fat loss etc. by training first thing; I just prefer it because it starts my day off. It's an individual preference thing IMO.
    I'm growing to absolutely love training in the AM, fasted of course. Everything about it just seems right, from what I've read anyway.

    I may forget the whole Xtend before/during training thing, and just supplement with it post-workout. I'd like to try it as an alternative to whey/pea protein.

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    Yea I'm kind of lost????? So what did they end at? To take bcaaz before fasted Cardio or not? I'm lookin for fat loss and just ordered bcaaz cause I was thinkin it would help my fasted Cardio and workout. I'm also doin keto And am a lil confused on what was said since I'm not very good on the whole science thing. Any help would be good thanks.


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    I honestly dont know if it knocks me out of ketosis but I didnt find any negative impact on my fat loss when taking BCAAs preworkout...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MHA View Post
    Yea I'm kind of lost????? So what did they end at? To take bcaaz before fasted Cardio or not? I'm lookin for fat loss and just ordered bcaaz cause I was thinkin it would help my fasted Cardio and workout. I'm also doin keto And am a lil confused on what was said since I'm not very good on the whole science thing. Any help would be good thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo4Fun View Post
    I honestly dont know if it knocks me out of ketosis but I didnt find any negative impact on my fat loss when taking BCAAs preworkout...

    well, see thats the thing, if you have a maintenance including activity of 3000 cals, and you only eat 2500 cals, whether or not you are in keto doesn't make a huge difference. The plus of keto is that you are less likely to loose muscle, but if you are only 500 below maintenance and its well spread out then you aren't very likely to loose much muscle anyhow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCo4Fun View Post
    I use:
    25mg ephedrine hcl
    10mg yohimbine hcl
    a 24 oz sugar free rockstar
    10mg Y-Hcl??
    that's about 4 times the most I've ever taken (2.5), which dose had my heart hammering (this at a time when I was accustomed to ECA). How can you take so much?

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    god, i've taken 20mg of it, from the nutra caps
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    That is most likely not the best explanation I have given, however, I do not necessarily feel like explaining how fasted-state training transiently increases the mRNA transcription rate of fat metabolic proteins, their effect on IMTG oxidation, and how this produces the exact physiological processes of Ketosis in a transient fashion.
    fasted workouts make you go into ketosis?

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