new discovery-Optimal protein dose after weight training is twenty grams

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  1. new discovery-Optimal protein dose after weight training is twenty grams


    Optimal protein dose after weight training is twenty grams


    If you take protein immediately after training to stimulate muscle tissue increase, the optimal dose is twenty grams. A higher intake only increases the breakdown of amino acids in the body, write sports scientists at McMaster University in Canada in a soon-to-be published article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.


    An increased concentration of amino acids in the body stimulates the growth of muscles, as does weight training. In the muscles these stimuli activate signalling proteins like mTOR, S6K1 and elF2B, and as a result the cells manufacture more muscle proteins.


    Say then that after training you drink a protein shake ? milk, quark, soya or chicken ? to optimise your muscle growth, how much protein do you need? An obvious question, but not one that researchers have paid much attention to. Until now.


    The Canadians got six students to train their leg muscles. They did four sets of eight to ten reps with the leg-press, leg-extension and leg-curl. The last sets they did to failure. Two days before the training the students got a standard diet with 1.4 g protein per kg bodyweight per day. Right after a training session the students got a protein shake. The amount of protein in the shake was ten, twenty, thirty or forty grams.


    Four hours after the students had drunk the protein shake, the researchers measured the build up of muscle fibre and the amino acid metabolism. The graph below shows the effect of the shakes on the mixed-muscle fractional protein synthesis ? the muscle build-up.



    The twenty-gram shake had the most effect. It increased the production of muscle fibre by 93 percent compared with a training session where no protein was consumed afterwards. A higher intake has hardly any extra effect.


    The researchers also examined the manufacture of albumin in the liver. This protein is found in the blood and the body can use it as an extra source of amino acids if it needs to. The researchers had expected that an extra high protein intake might not stimulate extra manufacture of muscle protein, but that the protein might be stored in the form of albumin ? as a buffer you could say. But this was not the case, as you can see from the graph below.




    Shakes containing more than twenty grams of protein do promote the burning of amino acids. The researchers discovered this by measuring the oxidation of the amino acid leucine in the blood of the test subjects.



    "The point at which amino acid oxidation significantly increases reflects the level at which protein intake becomes excessive", the researchers write. "Suggestive of a nutrient excess, leucine oxidation in the present study was stimulated after ingestion of 20 and 40 g of protein. In addition, muscle and plasma albumin protein synthesis were maximally stimulated at 20 g of dietary protein, which suggests an upper limit for incorporation of amino into these protein pools had been reached."


    We have a different theory. The body needs time to digest proteins. The more protein you consume, the longer the digestion process takes. The body?s amino acid requirement in the muscles is greatest during and immediately after a training session. The higher doses that the Canadians used needed more time to be digested and were given too late. If the Canadians had given their test subjects the protein before the training session, then they would have probably discovered that higher doses of protein do provide an extra anabolic stimulus


    Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Dec 3. [Epub ahead of print].

    sorry about the graphics but I received this by email and no graphs


  2. So does this mean maybe taking 10 grams would be even better??

  3. great post man. i had actually been wondering about this. bbers have this odd idea that more is always better.

    did it specify what kind of protein?
    •   
       


  4. it's only one study. I wouldn't call this a "new discovery"...

  5. Quote Originally Posted by michael3435 View Post
    great post man. i had actually been wondering about this. bbers have this odd idea that more is always better.

    did it specify what kind of protein?
    no but that is a important factor IMO , if of course their conclusion is correct, hydrolyzed protein are easily breakdown when compared by instance with casein

  6. Quote Originally Posted by bigpoppapump2 View Post
    it's only one study. I wouldn't call this a "new discovery"...
    better to have 1 study that only a guess

  7. Quote Originally Posted by nunes View Post
    no but that is a important factor IMO , if of course their conclusion is correct, hydrolyzed protein are easily breakdown when compared by instance with casein
    well im not 100 sure, but i think the study is referring to the amount that can be put into muscle cells, not the digestion. so i would think protein delivered all at once would be far inferior to something sustained released

  8. Quote Originally Posted by michael3435 View Post
    well im not 100 sure, but i think the study is referring to the amount that can be put into muscle cells, not the digestion. so i would think protein delivered all at once would be far inferior to something sustained released
    interesting point, hope some guru come here and help

  9. Quote Originally Posted by michael3435 View Post
    well im not 100 sure, but i think the study is referring to the amount that can be put into muscle cells, not the digestion. so i would think protein delivered all at once would be far inferior to something sustained released
    I`m not 100% sure also but the fact that the liver transform the excess on albumin and store it for later usage may have something to do with it
    maybe you`re right

  10. I honestly get better results the more protein I use. I have changed from a 20-30 gram protein shake after workouts with some carbs to a 50-60 gram protein shake with same amount of carbs for the past two months. Much better results (strength, recovery, size, fullness) with more protein.

    To me this is just like glutamine. It's not supposed to do anything and be destroyed by the stomach before it can be absorbed, yet people who use it report better recovery, better gains, less soreness and continually yield some results with it.

    To each his own.

  11. I prefer to get more than I need, rather than risk getting less.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by planetfuzz View Post
    So does this mean maybe taking 10 grams would be even better??
    Did you even read the whole post?


    The Canadians got six students to train their leg muscles. They did four sets of eight to ten reps with the leg-press, leg-extension and leg-curl. The last sets they did to failure. Two days before the training the students got a standard diet with 1.4 g protein per kg bodyweight per day. Right after a training session the students got a protein shake. The amount of protein in the shake was ten, twenty, thirty or forty grams.

    It then concluded that 20 grams was the optimal dose from this study...so how would 10 grams be better based on this studies conclusions.

    now re-read it before I have Chuck numchuck you :bruce1:

  13. Quote Originally Posted by R-Mac View Post
    Did you even read the whole post?


    The Canadians got six students to train their leg muscles. They did four sets of eight to ten reps with the leg-press, leg-extension and leg-curl. The last sets they did to failure. Two days before the training the students got a standard diet with 1.4 g protein per kg bodyweight per day. Right after a training session the students got a protein shake. The amount of protein in the shake was ten, twenty, thirty or forty grams.

    It then concluded that 20 grams was the optimal dose from this study...so how would 10 grams be better based on this studies conclusions.

    now re-read it before I have Chuck numchuck you :bruce1:
    Good explanation, short and simple

  14. I think the full article will be more enlightening; the discussion will allow us to see what question they're trying to answer with this. I actually live 30 minutes away from McMaster; do you happen to have the authors' names? I might consider calling them and asking for their thoughts. McMaster has really impressed me with the quality and scope of their research lately actually.

    I'm curious if 20g of a fast protein i.e. hydrolyzed whey coupled with say 20g slow digesting egg/casein would be useful to avoid the aa breakdown.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    I think the full article will be more enlightening; the discussion will allow us to see what question they're trying to answer with this. I actually live 30 minutes away from McMaster; do you happen to have the authors' names? I might consider calling them and asking for their thoughts. McMaster has really impressed me with the quality and scope of their research lately actually.

    I'm curious if 20g of a fast protein i.e. hydrolyzed whey coupled with say 20g slow digesting egg/casein would be useful to avoid the aa breakdown.
    I ask my friend who sent the e-mail to give me the source and there you go:
    http://www.ergo-log.com/20grams.html
    thanks for the reps steve , hope this is good and it will be nice to see more info on this study

  16. This only occurs post w/o? If so, what would make that different from any other time you take in protein?
    Always open light. Itís not what you open with, itís what you finish with. Louie Simmons

  17. Subscribed

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Ddono25 View Post
    I honestly get better results the more protein I use. I have changed from a 20-30 gram protein shake after workouts with some carbs to a 50-60 gram protein shake with same amount of carbs for the past two months. Much better results (strength, recovery, size, fullness) with more protein.

    To me this is just like glutamine. It's not supposed to do anything and be destroyed by the stomach before it can be absorbed, yet people who use it report better recovery, better gains, less soreness and continually yield some results with it.

    To each his own.
    Who has shown increase in glutamine in blood surem? I know when we draw blood at the office and measure glutamine from people who take 5-10 grams it does not increase. We have not tried nano glutamine or glutamine peptides but for regular glutamine we found no elevation.
    My post work out shake only has just about 20 grams of protein from whey and milk isolation with the right carbs.

    So the best thing to do is take 20 grams with carbs right after a work out than 1 hour later take more i.e 20-30 40 etc.

  19. Some studies have shown that protein ingested before a workout have slightly better results than those consumed post workout. Make a shake with 25 grams casein and 25 grams whey and drink half before your workout and the other half after your workout. That should cover all the bases, imo.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by marco wolf View Post
    Some studies have shown that protein ingested before a workout have slightly better results than those consumed post workout. Make a shake with 25 grams casein and 25 grams whey and drink half before your workout and the other half after your workout. That should cover all the bases, imo.
    before and after is the way to go

  21. Yes. Make sure the before is hydro ideally or something fast and after work out something semi fast like wpi and mpi with some carbs.

  22. i drink an entire 5 pounder pwo 60% of the time, every time.

    well not really, but the study didn't mention the weight of the subjects. that would make a difference... if i guessed i'd say average weight 160-180lbs?

  23. here is the pubmed brief: Ingested protein dose response of muscle and album...[Am J Clin Nutr. 2008] - PubMed Result

    they used egg protein.

    lots of unexplained variables.
    training intensity? body weight/composition of subjects? how long pwo was protein consumed?

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Hank Vangut View Post
    here is the pubmed brief: Ingested protein dose response of muscle and album...[Am J Clin Nutr. 2008] - PubMed Result

    they used egg protein.

    lots of unexplained variables.
    training intensity? body weight/composition of subjects? how long pwo was protein consumed?
    yeah, there are some unexplained things but even so its a start...
    about the egg protein I think that is a very good source of protein to take after workout, the digestion is fast and it haves a very good amino profile so I believe we can extrapolate the results to whey isolate, I`m not so sure about hydrolyzate

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    I'm curious if 20g of a fast protein i.e. hydrolyzed whey coupled with say 20g slow digesting egg/casein would be useful to avoid the aa breakdown.
    You hit the nail on the head. IMO, the faster the protein, the lower the dose should be to avoid waste. Generally, I think the most anabolic nutrients are those which are anti-catabolic (no, that isn't just semantics). That's one reason why milk, for example, is a perfect "supplement": protein ratio of about 20% whey and 80% casein. Fat free milk has a near 50-50 ratio of carbs to protein, which again is perfect IMO. Plus you're looking at a unique blend of carbs.
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  26. from what i read, it seems i will continue taking purple wraath or extend before and during, then drink a shake post. this thread makes me think i have got it right.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by nunes View Post
    yeah, there are some unexplained things but even so its a start...
    about the egg protein I think that is a very good source of protein to take after workout, the digestion is fast and it haves a very good amino profile so I believe we can extrapolate the results to whey isolate, I`m not so sure about hydrolyzate
    yeah, egg protein would fit somewhere in the middle for speed of digestion.

    fastest to slowest to process:
    free form aminos > whey > egg > casein

    like Aeternitatis said, it makes sense to take in smaller, more frequent feedings of the fast stuff to avoid oxidation/waste.
    but you can get away with consuming larger less frequent feedings of the slower digesting proteins.

  28. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men
    Daniel R Moore, Meghann J Robinson, Jessica L Fry, Jason E Tang, Elisa I Glover, Sarah B Wilkinson, Todd Prior, Mark A Tarnopolsky and Stuart M Phillips

    From the Exercise Metabolism Research Group, Department of Kinesiology (DRM, MJR, JLF, JET, EIG, SBW, TP, and SMP), and Departments of Neurology and Pediatrics (MAT), McMaster University, Hamilton, Canada.

    Supported by a grant from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council (NSERC) of Canada. DRM and SBW were supported by Canada Graduate Scholarships from the Canadian Institutes for Health Research (CIHR). MJR was supported by an NSERC Undergraduate Student Research Award. JLF was supported by a McMaster University Undergraduate Student Research Award. JET and EIG were supported by CIHR Doctoral Research Awards. SMP was the recipient of a CIHR New Investigator career award.

    Reprints not available. Address correspondence to SM Phillips, Department of Kinesiology, 1280 Main Street West, Hamilton, ON, Canada, L8S 4K1. E-mail: phillis@mcmaster.ca.

    ABSTRACT

    Background: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein.

    Objectives: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS.

    Design: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g of whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-13C]leucine.

    Results: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr389), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser240/244), and the -subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser539) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g of ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g of protein were ingested.

    Conclusions: Ingestion of 20 g of intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.

    Received for publication May 9, 2008. Accepted for publication October 2, 2008.

  29. I have not read the above study, but it should be viewed in light of the previous science. I seems pretty stupid, IMO, to assume that a 98 lbs weakling and a 330 lbs linebacker require the same amount of PWO protein - 20g.

    Below findings are based on grams of PRO per bodyweight.

    Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Oct;16(5):494-509.

    The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine.
    Cribb PJ, Williams AD, Carey MF, Hayes A.
    Exercise Metabolism Unit, Center for Ageing, Rehabilitation, Exercise and Sport (CARES), Australia.

    Different dietary proteins affect whole body protein anabolism and accretion and therefore, have the potential to influence results obtained from resistance training. This study examined the effects of supplementation with two proteins, hydrolyzed whey isolate (WI) and casein (C), on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine levels during a 10 wk, supervised resistance training program. In a double-blind protocol, 13 male, recreational bodybuilders supplemented their normal diet with either WI or C (1.5 gm/kg body wt/d) for the duration of the program. Strength was assessed by 1-RM in three exercises (barbell bench press, squat, and cable pull-down). Body composition was assessed by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry. Plasma glutamine levels were determined by the enzymatic method with spectrophotometric detection. All assessments occurred in the week before and the week following 10 wk of training. Plasma glutamine levels did not change in either supplement group following the intervention. The WI group achieved a significantly greater gain (P < 0.01) in lean mass than the C group (5.0 +/- 0.3 vs. 0.8 +/- 0.4 kg for WI and C, respectively) and a significant (P < 0.05) change in fat mass (-1.5 +/- 0.5 kg) compared to the C group (+0.2 +/- 0.3 kg). The WI group also achieved significantly greater (P < 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group in each assessment of strength. When the strength changes were expressed relative to body weight, the WI group still achieved significantly greater (P < 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group.

    ----------------------

    Below findings are based on absolute grams of PRO, regardless of bodyweight.

    J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Aug;20(3):643-53.

    The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training.
    Kerksick CM, Rasmussen CJ, Lancaster SL, Magu B, Smith P, Melton C, Greenwood M, Almada AL, Earnest CP, Kreider RB.
    Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health Research, Department of Health, Human Performance and Recreation, Baylor University, Waco, TX 76798, USA.

    The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of whey protein supplementation on body composition, muscular strength, muscular endurance, and anaerobic capacity during 10 weeks of resistance training. Thirty-six resistance-trained males (31.0 +/- 8.0 years, 179.1 +/- 8.0 cm, 84.0 +/- 12.9 kg, 17.8 +/- 6.6%) followed a 4 days-per-week split body part resistance training program for 10 weeks. Three groups of supplements were randomly assigned, prior to the beginning of the exercise program, in a double-blind manner to all subjects: 48 g per day (g.d(-1)) carbohydrate placebo (P), 40 g.d(-1) of whey protein + 8 g.d(-1) of casein (WC), or 40 g.d(-1) of whey protein + 3 g.d(-1) branched-chain amino acids + 5 g.d(-1) L-glutamine (WBG). At 0, 5, and 10 weeks, subjects were tested for fasting blood samples, body mass, body composition using dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), 1 repetition maximum (1RM) bench and leg press, 80% 1RM maximal repetitions to fatigue for bench press and leg press, and 30-second Wingate anaerobic capacity tests. No changes (p > 0.05) were noted in all groups for energy intake, training volume, blood parameters, and anaerobic capacity. WC experienced the greatest increases in DEXA lean mass (P = 0.0 +/- 0.9; WC = 1.9 +/- 0.6; WBG = -0.1 +/- 0.3 kg, p < 0.05) and DEXA fat-free mass (P = 0.1 +/- 1.0; WC = 1.8 +/- 0.6; WBG = -0.1 +/- 0.2 kg, p < 0.05). Significant increases in 1RM bench press and leg press were observed in all groups after 10 weeks. In this study, the combination of whey and casein protein promoted the greatest increases in fat-free mass after 10 weeks of heavy resistance training. Athletes, coaches, and nutritionists can use these findings to increase fat-free mass and to improve body composition during resistance training.

    ----------------------

    Below findings are based on grams of PRO per bodyweight.

    Ann Nutr Metab. 2000;44(1):21-9.

    Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.
    Demling RH, DeSanti L.
    Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA 02115, USA. rhdemling@partners.org

    We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2. 5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.
  30. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by nunes View Post
    yeah, there are some unexplained things but even so its a start...
    no, its not a start, they are drawing conclusions based on pretty incomplete data.

    what is missing is exactly how long preworkout what sort of meal was ingested, and whether meal timing was identical for all 6 participants. Even if they all had a standardized diet, that doesn't guarantee they all followed the diet with no snacks, or ate at the same times. the margin of error is too high with just 6 people for this to be statistically relevant anyhow.
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  31. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    no, its not a start, they are drawing conclusions based on pretty incomplete data.

    what is missing is exactly how long preworkout what sort of meal was ingested, and whether meal timing was identical for all 6 participants. Even if they all had a standardized diet, that doesn't guarantee they all followed the diet with no snacks, or ate at the same times. the margin of error is too high with just 6 people for this to be statistically relevant anyhow.
    I can see your point and agree with it, but I still think the study have a relative interest
  32. Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar

    well, it is nice to see someone looking into it, but i could only see it being relevant if there were say 30 people (so 6 per dosing scheme), with a control group that got placebo pwo
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  33. what is missing is exactly how long preworkout what sort of meal was ingested, and whether meal timing was identical for all 6 participants. Even if they all had a standardized diet, that doesn't guarantee they all followed the diet with no snacks, or ate at the same times. the margin of error is too high with just 6 people for this to be statistically relevant anyhow.
    The diets were standardized so they get the same amount protein(pre packaged) for 2 days before they did the study.

    The subjects were fasted overnight. so in the fed state they might even need less.

    The significant differences even with just 6 subjects only makes the study results more believable. A large number of participants can make even small changes significant.

    And the volume of exercise and the muscle mass can increase the amount of protein.But there is A LIMIT to the RATE of protein synthesis. And that's what the study shows.

    I have written an artcile about it but cannot link since I do not have that many posts.

  34. Also, with 6 people, some will just be more eye of the tiger than others. Even if they are on the same training plan, some will just push themselves harder.

  35. did u guys notice this thread is 2 years old?

  36. Quote Originally Posted by Hank Vangut View Post
    here is the pubmed brief: Ingested protein dose response of muscle and album...[Am J Clin Nutr. 2008] - PubMed Result

    they used egg protein.

    lots of unexplained variables.
    training intensity? body weight/composition of subjects? how long pwo was protein consumed?
    ^^^ This, and the results of the study would only be valid for egg protein. Considering the amount of variables, it really has no significance.
    E-Pharm Nutrition Representative

  37. Quote Originally Posted by sanchezgreg18 View Post
    did u guys notice this thread is 2 years old?
    more like a year and a half but i good discussion none the less. Better than restarting this discussion in awhole new thread. I cant believe its been that long since i sub'ed this thread. Doesn't feel that long ago lol

  38. they used egg protein.

    lots of unexplained variables.
    training intensity? body weight/composition of subjects? how long pwo was protein consumed?.
    The leucine content of egg protein is very similar to beef, chicken .Whey has a higher content of leucine. If they used whey, they would got the same result because leu is leu whether from whey or egg.

    The protocol involved 4 sets of 8-10 of leg press, leg extension and leg curl and then ingested 0, 5, 10, 20 or 40 gm of whole egg protein.

    The study participants were around 190 pounds and trained.

    They consumed protein right after the workout.
  

  
 

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