Plcar

[Imeniaan]

[Hi there folks. I want to buy bulk plcar, but nobody seems to sell it. Doe anbody know a source or website, where they are selling it?

Thank you.


PS: Nutraplanet is not an option for me, since they won't let me buy from them.]

 

[rms80]

[Hi there folks. I want to buy bulk plcar, but nobody seems to sell it. Doe anbody know a source or website, where they are selling it?

Thank you.


PS: Nutraplanet is not an option for me, since they won't let me buy from them.]

Sigma Tau (a big pharma co. based in Rome) owns all the patents to the Carnitines (except for L-Tartrate, which Lonza owns the parental dosage use patent)- and they are currently enforcing the patents pretty strictly. PLCAR is going to very hard to find very soon- Sigma Tau sells GlycoCarn, which is glycine Propionyl L Carnitine- which is a much more expensive alternative- that may be your best bet...

 

[dsade]

Sigma Tau (a big pharma co. based in Rome) owns all the patents to the Carnitines (except for L-Tartrate, which Lonza owns the parental dosage use patent)- and they are currently enforcing the patents pretty strictly. PLCAR is going to very hard to find very soon- Sigma Tau sells GlycoCarn, which is glycine Propionyl L Carnitine- which is a much more expensive alternative- that may be your best bet...

You can't patent an amino acid, only attempt to patent the compound FOR specific uses.

An example is Molecular Nutrition's Patent on Arachidonic Acid FOR muscle building.

 

[rms80]

You can't patent an amino acid, only attempt to patent the compound FOR specific uses.

An example is Molecular Nutrition's Patent on Arachidonic Acid FOR muscle building.

correct- they hold the use patent for parental dosage forms on most of the carnitines- I had a loooong conversation with their director of NA marketing the other day...

 

[dsade]

correct- they hold the use patent for parental dosage forms on most of the carnitines- I had a loooong conversation with their director of NA marketing the other day...

For what use?

 

[rms80]

For what use?

It was news to me when I talked to him as well- I had no idea any of the carnitines were patented....

From their website:

Sigma-Tau Research, Inc., is developing a series of compounds, in a variety of clinical indications for the U.S. market. These include:

-- Propionyl-L-carnitine (ST 261): this compound has completed phase III for
Intermittent Claudication, and an NDA is being prepared. Future development
areas will focus on the cardiovascular system.

-- Acetyl-L-carnitine (ST 200): this compound has been developed in both
Alzheimer's disease and peripheral diabetic neuropathy, where it has completed
phase III. Future areas of development will still revolve around cognition and
peripheral neuropathy of different origin.

 

[dsade]

and FYI, parenteral means INJECTED or infused, not oral use (which would be enteral).

These compounds are dietary by nature, and thus you are not able to patent the compound, only special uses.

 

[rms80]

here is the one from Lonza for L-Tartrate:
15.03.2004
Fair Lawn - Lonza Ltd. and Lonza Inc., both subsidiaries of Lonza Group Ltd., are pleased to announce that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office on March 2, 2004 confirmed the validity of Lonza's U.S. Patent No. 5,073,376 against an attack by an admitted infringer. The subject patent covers enteric preparations (solid oral dosage forms) of L-Carnitine L-Tartrate in tablet, capsule and powdered form, and the making and using of such preparations.


Validity of L-Carnitine L-Tartrate's US Patent Upheld

The Patent Office was presented with an exhaustive compilation of prior art, some of which had not been considered at the time the patent was initially granted, and confirmed that Lonza's invention was patentable. This decision strengthens the presumption of validity of the patent and reinforces Lonza's determination to maintain and enforce its patent rights in the L-Carnitine market.

Lonza is a life sciences driven company, headquartered in Switzerland, which generated sales of CHF 2.24 billion in 2003. It operates 18 production and R&D facilities in eight countries and employs 5660 people worldwide. Lonza is one of the leading custom manufacturers of chemical intermediates and active ingredients as well as biopharmaceuticals for the pharmaceutical and agrochemical industries. In addition, Lonza also offers organic intermediates for a wide range of applications and provides antimicrobial and associated products as well as polymer intermediates and compounds. For more information please visit the company's websites at Invalid Link Removed or Invalid Link Removed.

 

[rms80]

and FYI, parenteral means INJECTED or infused, not oral use (which would be enteral).

These compounds are dietary by nature, and thus you are not able to patent the compound, only special uses.

also correct- just re-iterating what the gentleman told me....I forget if he told me if it was both enteric or parenteral, or both- but I know Lonza's was for enteric for the L-Carn-L-Tart...

 

[dsade]

also correct- just re-iterating what the gentleman told me....I forget if he told me if it was both enteric or parenteral, or both- but I know Lonza's was for enteric for the L-Carn-L-Tart...

Which would not cover the inclusion of LCLT in Virile Mane, for example.

Also, looking at the PLCAR patent - it is strictly for the use of treating intermittent claudication, and therefore only products marketed for that purpose would be in violation.

ALCAR looks to be for treatment of alzheimers - again, not covering other uses.

 

[rms80]

Which would not cover the inclusion of LCLT in Virile Mane, for example.

Also, looking at the PLCAR patent - it is strictly for the use of treating intermittent claudication, and therefore only products marketed for that purpose would be in violation.

ALCAR looks to be for treatment of alzheimers - again, not covering other uses.

so only for use specificity? I know if the IP is not defended for a period of time, basically any challenge to the patent can be upheld under a latching statue.....

So if ALCAR was put on the market as an alzheimer's drug- wouldn't it have to be taken off the market as a supplement?the rep from Sigma was claiming that PLCAR was about to become a clinical drug in the US (it is already prescription in Europe)- so wouldn't that automatically prohibit sales?

just asking- I find it very odd that something that has been on the market 10 plus years can all of a sudden require a prescription- and then all of the raw material providers for it all of a sudden dissappear (not all the way, there are still a couple left)....

 

[dsade]

so only for use specificity? I know if the IP is not defended for a period of time, basically any challenge to the patent can be upheld under a latching statue.....

Correct...compounds can be patented for novel uses - if they pass - but you cannot then claim that nobody else can use the compound for any other reason at all.

So if ALCAR was put on the market as an alzheimer's drug- wouldn't it have to be taken off the market as a supplement?the rep from Sigma was claiming that PLCAR was about to become a clinical drug in the US (it is already prescription in Europe)- so wouldn't that automatically prohibit sales?

just asking- I find it very odd that something that has been on the market 10 plus years can all of a sudden require a prescription- and then all of the raw material providers for it all of a sudden dissappear (not all the way, there are still a couple left)....

If Big Pharma has their way, they will be banned and moved to prescription status, yes - as will most other interesting, though natural, compounds.

 

[rms80]

Correct...compounds can be patented for novel uses - if they pass - but you cannot then claim that nobody else can use the compound for any other reason at all.


If Big Pharma has their way, they will be banned and moved to prescription status, yes - as will most other interesting, though natural, compounds.

He was pretty adamant that this would happen- at least with PLCAR- the funny thing is, PLCAR from a decent supplier will run you $40-80 kg- but GlycoCarn is about $270/kg

 

[dsade]

He was pretty adamant that this would happen- at least with PLCAR- the funny thing is, PLCAR from a decent supplier will run you $40-80 kg- but GlycoCarn is about $270/kg

Actually, PLCAR is up to around $140 a kilo right now - due to Chinese "problems" stemming from the Olympics.

I wish I could get it for $40 a kilo, but we are hoping to see it drop under $100 soon.

EDIT: The worst part of this is, much like HMB, if the companies (LCLT, for example) would simply offer the product at a decent price (complete with reasonable profit for them) then there would be plenty of customers. The monopoly mentality takes over, though, and they charge such a high price that manufacturers are forced to either use less than effective dosages, or simply NOT use the compound.

Stupid stupid.

 

[rms80]

see my "supplement triangle of death" reply on another thread this same thing has happened with probably 50 other compounds that I can think of off the top of my head....

and you are right- this is how a great compound becomes a perceived shitty one b/c it is rampantly underdosed, both because of price, and garbage-pail formulas- and HMB is a great example- if they kept it cheap, and people took 10-15 grams a day- the gains are phenomenal

and I re-checked prices- the suppliers have gone up quite a bit on the price of PLCAR- but so has everything else- we had some raws get jacked up 50%...

 

[dsade]

see my "supplement triangle of death" reply on another thread this same thing has happened with probably 50 other compounds that I can think of off the top of my head....

and you are right- this is how a great compound becomes a perceived shitty one b/c it is rampantly underdosed, both because of price, and garbage-pail formulas- and HMB is a great example- if they kept it cheap, and people took 10-15 grams a day- the gains are phenomenal

and I re-checked prices- the suppliers have gone up quite a bit on the price of PLCAR- but so has everything else- we had some raws get jacked up 50%...

exactly.

We are actually running DCP right now at break even, which ties up a LOT of capital for zero return.

 

[cord195148]

Sorry to butt in. What do you suppose LEF is paying to market Glycocarn?

 

[rms80]

Sorry to butt in. What do you suppose LEF is paying to market Glycocarn?

No worries- they are spending ONE BEEEEEELION DOLLARS j/k

Seems like quite a bit- they sent us a bag, two books, and a whole buttload of other stuff- plus I am sure they are doing product swaps and things of that nature for tagging ads, etc.....

 

[rms80]

exactly.

We are actually running DCP right now at break even, which ties up a LOT of capital for zero return.

that is rough- we are trying to hold down prices ourselves- it has gotten completely out of control over the last few months....doing everything in-house helps, but when you factor in machinery, facility maintenance, testing equipment for cGMPs, etc. it starts to add up.....

 

[Imeniaan]

Sigma Tau (a big pharma co. based in Rome) owns all the patents to the Carnitines (except for L-Tartrate, which Lonza owns the parental dosage use patent)- and they are currently enforcing the patents pretty strictly. PLCAR is going to very hard to find very soon- Sigma Tau sells GlycoCarn, which is glycine Propionyl L Carnitine- which is a much more expensive alternative- that may be your best bet...

GLPC is inferior to Plcar, so I was told, is this true? Even 1fast400 are out of plcar.

I only want 200 grams, so it will last me about 100 days. Google is my friend, but very few matches.

 

[rms80]

GLPC is inferior to Plcar, so I was told, is this true? Even 1fast400 are out of plcar.

I only want 200 grams, so it will last me about 100 days. Google is my friend, but very few matches.

in reality- no- they are probably about the same in terms of effectiveness- they just carry a different price tag.....

 

[Imeniaan]

in reality- no- they are probably about the same in terms of effectiveness- they just carry a different price tag.....

I don't know if you really can compare the two studies;

GLPC;

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2008 Feb;18(1):19-36.

Effect of glycine propionyl-L-carnitine on aerobic and anaerobic exercise performance.

Smith WA, Fry AC, Tschume LC, Bloomer RJ.


The purpose of this study was to evaluate the effect of glycine propionyl-L-carnitine (GPLC) supplementation and endurance training for 8 wk on aerobic- and anaerobic-exercise performance in healthy men and women (age 18-44 yr). Participants were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: placebo (n=9), 1 g/d GPLC (n=11), or 3 g/d GPLC (n=12), in a double-blind fashion. Muscle carnitine (vastus lateralis), VO(2peak), exercise time to fatigue, anaerobic threshold, anaerobic power, and total work were measured at baseline and after an 8-wk aerobic-training program. There were no statistical differences (p> .05) between or within the 3 groups for any performance-related variable or muscle carnitine concentrations after 8 wk of supplementation and training. These results suggest that up to 3 g/d GPLC for 8 wk in conjunction with aerobic-exercise training is ineffective for increasing muscle carnitine content and has no significant effects on aerobic- or anaerobic-exercise performance.

Plcar;

Effect of propionyl-L-carnitine on exercise performance in peripheral arterial disease.
Barker G A; Green S; Askew C D; Green A A; Walker P J

Medicine and science in sports and exercise 2001;33(9):1415-22.



BACKGROUND: Supplementation with propionyl-L-carnitine (PLC) may be of use in improving the exercise capacity of people with peripheral arterial disease. METHODS: After a 2-wk exercise familiarization phase, seven subjects displaying intermittent claudication were studied over a 12-wk period consisting of three 4-wk phases, baseline (B), supplementation (S), and placebo (P). PLC was supplemented at 2 g x d(-1), and subjects were blinded to the order of supplementation. Unilateral calf strength and endurance were assessed weekly. Walking performance was assessed at the end of each phase using an incremental protocol, during which respiratory gases were collected. RESULTS: Although there was not a significant increase in maximal walking time ( approximately 14%) in the whole group, walking time improved to a greater extent than the individual baseline coefficient of variation in four of the seven subjects. The changes in walking performance were correlated with changes in the respiratory exchange ratio both at steady state (r = 0.59) and maximal exercise (r = 0.79). Muscle strength increased significantly from 695 +/- 198 N to 812 +/- 249 N by the end of S. Changes in calf strength from B to S were modestly related to changes in walking performance (r = 0.56). No improvements in calf endurance were detected throughout the study. CONCLUSIONS: These preliminary data suggest that, in addition to walking performance, muscle strength can be increased in PAD patients after 4 wk of supplementation with propionyl-L-carnitine.

The combination of both Plcar and Alcar will give a man better and stronger erections (more nighttime erections) and better overall blood circulation, comparable to that of Testosteron, but without the negative side effects. (enlargement of prostate etc)

Both alcar and plcar are amazing and very underestimated imho. (lots of studies)

Now get me some Plcar please.