kre alkalyn an caffeine

[Graham]

Does Kre get depleted by caffiene. How many mg a day is slo would deplete it:chick:

 

[JaredGalloway]

I completely do not understand ur reasoning for asking such a question...but in my understanding of kre-alkalyn (which i am taking now) does NOT get depleted by caffeine...simply because these 2 products dont work that way...Could u be more clear with ur question...

 

[Graham]

I completely do not understand ur reasoning for asking such a question...but in my understanding of kre-alkalyn (which i am taking now) does NOT get depleted by caffeine...simply because these 2 products dont work that way...Could u be more clear with ur question...

Caffeine diminishes the effects of vitamins an stuff when taken in large amounts. Ive heard caffeine may be bad for creatine but get many mixed results.

 

[Graham]

I completely do not understand ur reasoning for asking such a question...but in my understanding of kre-alkalyn (which i am taking now) does NOT get depleted by caffeine...simply because these 2 products dont work that way...Could u be more clear with ur question...

My bad on the spelling I meant if so my bad.

 

[JaredGalloway]

Do u have any science to prove ur theory...cause if ur right that means that ALL the caffeine containing preworkout products are useless...when in reality they offer lots of benefits...and just to clarify this is not true...on the other hand caffeine can mess with arginine...but again i say not creatine...

 

[poison]

Caffeine intake negates the benefits of creatine supplements

Posted by sandco on October 21, 2007

The serious athlete knows better than to rely just on a famous cereal to provide additional energy in preparation of a sporting event. Supplements have assumed an important role in today’s training regimen. Some – such as anabolic steroids — have been deemed illegal by most sports authorities. Others – such as caffeine and creatine — are controversial yet presently allowed.Background
Caffeine, the primary ingredient of coffee, is used as a central nervous system stimulant, diuretic, circulatory and respiratory stimulant, and as an adjunct in the treatment of headaches. Evidence shows that caffeine intensifies muscle contractions, masks the discomfort of physical exertion, and even speeds up the use of the muscles’ short-term fuel stores. Some exercise physiologists believe that caffeine might improve performance by increasing fat oxidation and conserving muscle glycogen.

Creatine is used by athletes to increase lean body mass and improve performance in single and repetitive high-intensity, short-duration exercise tasks such as weightlifting, sprinting, and cycling. It is a popular nutritional supplement that is used by physically active people - from recreational exercisers to Olympic and professional athletes. According to a recent survey, 28 percent of athletes in an NCAA Division IA program reported using creatine. The creatine that is normally present in human muscle may come from two potential sources: dietary (animal flesh) and internally manufactured.

The purpose of creatine supplementation is to increase either total creatine stores or phosphocreatine (PCr) stores within muscle. Supplementation increases the rate of resynthesis of creatine phosphate following exercise. Various studies have shown increased muscle PCr levels after supplementing with 20-30 grams of creatine monohydrate daily.

Creatine supplementation has also been known to shorten relaxation time during intermittent maximal iosometric muscle contraction. This shortened time, coupled with a creatine loaded muscle facilitates calcium absorption into the sarcoplasmic reticulum (the endoplasmic reticulum of skeletal and cardiac muscle). However, some believe that caffeine intake enhances calcium release from the sarcoplasmic reticulum.

The Study
This has lead a research team from Belgium to suggest that the combined effects of creatine and caffeine supplementation may be counterproductive to creatine’s effect on muscle relaxation time. The authors of the study, “Opposite Actions of Caffeine and Creatine on Muscle Relaxation Time in Humans” are P. Hespel, B. Op ‘T Eijnde, and M. Van Leemputte, all from the Department of Kinesiology, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Leuven, Belgium. Their findings appear in the February 2002 edition of the Journal of Applied Physiology.

Methodology
Ten physical education students (nine men and one woman) participated in the study. They were told to abstain from medication and caffeine intake one week prior to the experiment. The subjects were additionally asked to avoid changes in their level of physical activity and diet during the 25-week duration of the study. In this double blind experiment, the subjects performed the exercise test before and after creatine supplementation, short-term caffeine intake, creatine supplementation in the short term, acute caffeine intake, or a placebo.

This study required the random assignment of the students into five experimental protocols, each lasting eight days. Three elements were measured during an experiment consisting of 30 intermittent contractions of quadriceps entailing two seconds of stimulation and two seconds of rest. Measurements included maximum torque (Tmax), contraction time (CT) from 0.25 to 0.75 of Tmax, and relaxation time (RT) from 0.75 to 0.25 of max.

Results
Key findings of this study included:

· a confirmation of the fact that oral creatine supplementation shortens muscle relaxation time in humans: relation time was reduced by five percent and was significantly shorter than after the placebo;

· discovery that the intake of caffeine, combined with a daily creatine supplement, counteracted the beneficial effects of creatine intake on relaxation time and fatigue enhanced this inhibitory effect; and

· the observation that caffeine reduces the functional capacity of sacroplasmic reticulum calcium ATPase.

Conclusion The researchers believe that the findings from this experiment offer indirect evidence that suggests that facilitation of muscle relaxation may be important to the ergogenic action of creatine supplementation as well as power production during sprint exercises.

However, for the athlete in training, the key finding is that sustained caffeine intake, over a three-day period, negates the benefits of creatine supplements.

Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading.
Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P.

Faculty of Physical Education and Physiotherapy, Department of Kinesiology, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium.

This study aimed to compare the effects of oral creatine (Cr) supplementation with creatine supplementation in combination with caffeine (Cr+C) on muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) level and performance in healthy male volunteers (n = 9). Before and after 6 days of placebo, Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1), or Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1) + C (5 mg x kg-1 x day-1) supplementation, 31P-nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the gastrocnemius muscle and a maximal intermittent exercise fatigue test of the knee extensors on an isokinetic dynamometer were performed. The exercise consisted of three consecutive maximal isometric contractions and three interval series of 90, 80, and 50 maximal voluntary contractions performed with a rest interval of 2 min between the series. Muscle ATP concentration remained constant over the three experimental conditions. Cr and Cr+C increased (P < 0.05) muscle PCr concentration by 4-6%. Dynamic torque production, however, was increased by 10-23% (P < 0.05) by Cr but was not changed by Cr+C. Torque improvement during Cr was most prominent immediately after the 2-min rest between the exercise bouts. The data show that Cr supplementation elevates muscle PCr concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.

11111

 

[JaredGalloway]

11111

Well then if this is true then it means most preworkout products are useless...:goodpost:...Through what physiological pathways does caffeine render creatine useless...I read the studies u posted i just want a more scientific approach...

Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading.
Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P.

Faculty of Physical Education and Physiotherapy, Department of Kinesiology, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium.

This study aimed to compare the effects of oral creatine (Cr) supplementation with creatine supplementation in combination with caffeine (Cr+C) on muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) level and performance in healthy male volunteers (n = 9). Before and after 6 days of placebo, Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1), or Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1) + C (5 mg x kg-1 x day-1) supplementation, 31P-nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the gastrocnemius muscle and a maximal intermittent exercise fatigue test of the knee extensors on an isokinetic dynamometer were performed. The exercise consisted of three consecutive maximal isometric contractions and three interval series of 90, 80, and 50 maximal voluntary contractions performed with a rest interval of 2 min between the series. Muscle ATP concentration remained constant over the three experimental conditions. Cr and Cr+C increased (P < 0.05) muscle PCr concentration by 4-6%. Dynamic torque production, however, was increased by 10-23% (P < 0.05) by Cr but was not changed by Cr+C. Torque improvement during Cr was most prominent immediately after the 2-min rest between the exercise bouts. The data show that Cr supplementation elevates muscle PCr concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.

This doesnt make much sense to me...if phosphocreatine levels go up then a strength increase must follow...

 

[poison]

Dynamic torque production, however, was increased by 10-23% (P < 0.05) by Cr but was not changed by Cr+C.

There it is. No mechanism stated.

The problem I have with it is is that IIRC, the original studies on creatine involved loading 20gr a day, and each dose was dissolved in...wait for it...hot coffee. Odd.

Clearly, every pre-workout cocktail has both, and they do increase work capacity more than they should, if this is true.

 

[JaredGalloway]

There it is. No mechanism stated.

The problem I have with it is is that IIRC, the original studies on creatine involved loading 20gr a day, and each dose was dissolved in...wait for it...hot coffee. Odd.

Clearly, every pre-workout cocktail has both, and they do increase work capacity more than they should, if this is true.

It still doesnt make sense how PCr levels were effected but performance stayed the same...And that is very odd...but this particular study was using 50grams per day...how is it possible that workload did not increase on such a high dose of creatine...And how can Dynamic Torque not increase... If one would just take caffeine alone it will increase performance so there HAS to be an increase in performance with caffeine and creatine...Not argueing with u just pondering the different possibilities...

 

[poison]

I'm not at all sure caffeine increases dynamic torque.

 

[timvalen]

I use both caffeine and creatine. I still get positive affects when taking the creatine. I've used both for as long as I can remember, personally I don't worry about it.