[Jag]

Just wondering if there was such thing as a list of Amino Acids that gives a list of other aminos they compete for absorbtion with and also what they combine well with.

I know list like this would be good when working out certain formulas to fit my workout schedule to get full benefit from my supps....and also to save money.

This may also impact on peoples reviews of a certain supplement. For example and i am abolutely no expert in this field but i've always been led to believe that any carb/sugar taken at the same time as Arginine will omit any benefit Arginine has but looking at a lot of N.O. products goes against that.

It can get very confusing and i spend a lot of time researching different things but i cannot find much written in laymens terms that makes any sense.

Jag

[dragonfly]

You've noticed well, lots of NO products contain extra supplemental stuff . You'll also find protein powders that contain high amounts of both BCAAs and Arg. However, these aminos work best when taken on empty stomach.

One of the reasons for supplementing with arginine is due to its ability to stimulate HGH release. It is known that insulin interferes with HGH release and therefore arg should not be taken to close to meals that elicit insulin spike (carbs+protein, high GI and simple carbs etc).

BCAAs on the other hand are predominant aminos in the muscle. Supplementing with BCAAs helps recovery and it is also beneficial in maintaining strength when cutting. BCAAs not only promote protein synthesis but also reduce protein degradation. Thus, supplementing with BCAAs is particularly beneficial pre- and post workout. In these instances you want to flood the muscles with BCAA rapidly. Even though whey (particularly WPI), is a fast digesting protein, BCAA in whey are bound to other amino acids and so it takes several hours before they are released into the bloodstream during digestion. In contrast, in their free form BCAAs are rapidly absorbed from the intestine. It is still a debate whether it is worth supplementing with free BCAAs, if you are interested in this, you should have a look at this thread:

BCAA Supplementation Roundtable

Hope this helps !

[SilentBob187]

I've heard that glutamine and arginine compete against each other. I'll see if I can hunt that down today.

[Jag]

Thank you both for your replies.

BCAA's were one of the Aminos i had in mind.

I usually train first thing in the morning on an empty stomach but i do have a substantial meal an hour or so before bed. This meal both helps me sleep and as it usually contains carbs it also fuels my workout.

Athough i find this meal sufficient for maintaining i want to step up my training soon so i will be requiring the use of BCAA's. I really notice improved recovery from them at the right dose and despite what some people say for people with training schedules like mine they are invaluable and cheap.

As i usually use stims i realise they can be vaso-constricting so to combat this i wanted to add Arginine Base and Citrulline Malate for their dilating purposes and BCAA's for catabolism but i'm not really sure if they work well together or not.

I have a stockpile of both and also Acetyl-l-Carnitine (ALCAR) so this was the stack i was considering using. On paper it looks good but i think we all know that doesn't pan out in the real world though and i don't want to combine them if it's not worth it.

Jag

[ersatz]

Originally Posted by SilentBob187

I've heard that glutamine and arginine compete against each other. I'll see if I can hunt that down today.

Recycling of citrulline into arginine can be inhibited by glutamine. There's conflicting evidence on glutamine affecting NO synthesis, primarily through reducing intracellular NADPH or the inhibition of the citrulline-arginine cycle though.

One has to realize it's not just competition for absorption(amino acid transport) but there also exists inhibition in (re)synthesis cycles as well. Not to mention the various hormones and other chemicals that affect these transport and synthesis pathways. So, there's no simple chart stating what may inhibit another. One has to realize that dose too will affect "competition" but complete inhibition is difficult to achieve as well. So this paranoia of competition or negation is not necessarily well founded and likely of little importance given the doses we commonly employ.

[dragonfly]

Originally Posted by ersatz

Recycling of citrulline into arginine can be inhibited by glutamine. There's conflicting evidence on glutamine affecting NO synthesis, primarily through reducing intracellular NADPH or the inhibition of the citrulline-arginine cycle though.

One has to realize it's not just competition for absorption(amino acid transport) but there also exists inhibition in (re)synthesis cycles as well. Not to mention the various hormones and other chemicals that affect these transport and synthesis pathways. So, there's no simple chart stating what may inhibit another. One has to realize that dose too will affect "competition" but complete inhibition is difficult to achieve as well. So this paranoia of competition or negation is not necessarily well founded and likely of little importance given the doses we commonly employ.

Agree with Jag, in terms of using BCAA, I notice enhanced recovery as well. Also, if you train "on empty" they are probably the best value for money supp you can take. If you train in the morning and want to maximize the effectiveness of your sup stack, I would suggest taking a dose of Arg+ALCAR+Citrulline malate immediately after you wake up. Then just before you hit the gym, you can sip down half of your BCAA+glutamine and have the rest in your "workout drink". You may also want to take another dose immediately after workout. This way you would minimize any "competition issues". As far as chemical inhibition is concerned, well we don't live in an ideal world besides, as Ersatz pointed out, complete inhibition is unlikely to occur under the doses we use.

[Jag]

ALCAR, Citrulline Malate and Arginine is an absolutely fantastic stack. A friend of mine is going to give me some Beta-Alanine to add to this but i'm getting fantastic pumps and endurance from this already.

I really noticed it doing squats yesterday and leg extensions that usually burn like hell only gave me a slight warmth even though i went heavier and to complete failure. Recovery between sets has improved as well.

I just restarted stims again (2 Basic Cuts and 25mg of Geranamine) an hour before a workout and the above aminos around 30-40 minutes before.

BCAA's straight after weights.

In case you all wanted to know

Jag