Anabolic Pump AND Keto Diet
- 08-05-2008, 07:55 PM
Anabolic Pump AND Keto Diet
I am currently on a keto diet, and looking to use it. I am very carb sensitive. Right now I have 100 or less carbs sun- Thurs, and Fri/Sat, and have around 200-300 carbs on my carb up days. I am looking to try out and have read on numerous posts its best to take with larger amounts of carbs. So, I am wondering whats the best way to incorporate this into my diet, or possible raising my daily carbs up to compensate for the use of AP.
I have read the AP manual, and it seems like I should possible take it 3 times a day, with 20-50 grams of carbs, one being pre w/o.
I w/o 5 days a week, as well as doing 45min cardio 3 days a week.
Can someone give me some sugessted for my circumstances on a lower carb diet (the least carbs to effeciently use AP)?
- 08-06-2008, 12:16 AM
You can either keep your keto diet going with carb up days and take Anabolic Pump before your high carb meals or you can use it each day, 3 times per day as you said.
Why don't you post up your diet that includes times you eat and times you train. I will give you some options!
- 08-06-2008, 10:08 PM
So basically, you can take AP before higher carb meals to help burn those carbs instead of storing them correct?
Here is a quick layout of my diet:
8:00 - 6 egg whites
10:00 - protein shake (75grms) usually sipped on btwn 9-11
12:00 - chicken breast with provolone cheese and/or broccoli
3:00 - deli meat - chicken breast/turkey/ham (6 slices of each), with provolone cheese as a wrap, and some colby cheese squares
5:00 - protein shake (75 grams) usually sipped on btwn 4:00-5:30
6:30 - pre-w/o cocktail (BCAAs, creatine, NO, etc)
7:00 - Workout and/or cardio
8:00 - post w/o protein shake (75 grms) sipped on btwn 8:00-8:30 taken with oats, and a cup of oranges
9:30 - chicken/steak/fish/shrimp, or a combo with some kind of veggies - peas, brocc, corn, green beans, or zuchinni
10:30ish - 1 more scoop of whey before bed, and sometimes a few cheese squares, or plain yougurt blended in with whey.
08-06-2008, 10:13 PM
08-08-2008, 12:31 PM
And yes, you are kind of correct Anabolic Pump directs your carbohydrates to muscles and inhibits carbohydrate uptake in fat cells. So basically, you gain muscle and lose fat.
08-08-2008, 04:02 PM
1. Is ketosis a goal of yours?
2. Have you ever heard of the Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD)?
1. If you are planning on a standard Cyclical Ketogenic Diet (CKD) I would revise the use of carbs throughout the day as some of them appear higher than one would consume on a starndard CKD (oats, oranges, corn and yogurt).
2. If your desire is fatloss, the TKD would produce great results and allow you to consume periodic carbohydrates (simple sugars prior to workout). Incidentally, this would be the perfect place to add AP.
Just trying to help...
08-08-2008, 06:37 PM
I will check the TKD out. can you elaborate more about this, or shoot me a link on where to research more. I also thought simple sugars after a workout would not be soo bad due to the glycogen depletion, as well as the positive insulin boost. So far I have lost 21lbs and have also gained size, especially in my check, back, and legs.
08-08-2008, 07:23 PM
08-08-2008, 08:02 PM
Incidentally, how did your friend know he was in ketosis?
Also, congratulations on such great progress!!
I started out CKDs with the writings of Dr. Di Pasquale(aka Anabolic Diet) before stumbling on the updated and thorough/technical writings of Lyle McDonald (A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner by Lyle McDonald and Elzi Volk).
Unfortunately, I sold the book about 2 years ago. In short, it is a valid reference guide for Ketogenic Diets (cyclical or targeted - nutrition, supplements and workout guides for ultimate weight loss). From what I understand, he has an updated book called The Ultimate Diet 2.0.
The Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD) is an approach to ketogenic diets in which dieter ONLY consumes carbohydrates prior to each weight training session. This is a "full time" ketogenic diet, compared to the standard CKD as there is no weekend refeed. The pre-workout carbs are "targeted" at improving workout performance (i.e. muscle glycogen). In general, simple sugars (glucose, NOT fructose) are consumed 30 minutes prior to workout. In summary, the TKD preserves performance (LBM) via pre-workout carbs AND fat loss via extended time in ketosis.
Lyle McDonald's CKD: Part 1, 2, 3 and FAQ.
08-08-2008, 09:22 PM
Well, I found a thread on this forum with more info about CKD, TKD, and the anabolic diet. I might end up giving the anabolic diet a try. My main goal is to loose fat right now, as I will be starting a cycle of test E in about a month. Also, I dont think I absolutely need carbs around my workouts, b/c I have a huge supply of ECA that I use before workouts and it gives me enough energy to get through.
Thanks for the links though. I will definately give each one a read tonight.
But as far as the anbolic pump goes, I guess I will be using it according to dexterium. I will take it 15min before my post workout shake, and consume around 30grms complex carbs(oats), and 30grams simple carbs(oranges). It seems as if anabolic pump is geared more towards those with higher carb diet(bulking diets)...but I am very sensitive to carbs, and honestly, once I get around 7-9% bf, I would like to maintain it year around. So, I dont think AP is going to be much use for me except for post w/o and my high carb days.
Now my question is, on high carb days, when I take AP, will this interfer with my glycogen replenishment?
So, in a nut shell, I will be using AP like this:
LOW carb days (0-30 carbs from now on): 2 AP pills 15 min before post w/o shake with 30grms of carbs.
HIGH carb days: 2 AP pills 15 min before each high carb meal. maybe 3 times a day??? (need help on this one)
Also, on high carb day, how many carbs is too much for the sensitive individuals? Also, how clean do you eat on high carb days, does this mean pizza, cookies, cokes? not that I really enjoy eating those things b/c of how they make me feel, but Im just wondering how wild I can get, incase the moment arises, or if I want to go get some low fat yogurt.
08-08-2008, 10:08 PM
My response is listed in bold:
08-08-2008, 10:17 PM
Man, great info man.
Ok, I do have some NP WMS which I can through in my post w/o shake instead of eating oranges.
Another quick questions...once I get down to my desired body fat, how to I maintain it whilst trying to gain muscle? Do I neccessarily have to be on a keto/ or similar diet year round? Not that it really matter b/c I will do what I gotta do to maintain my desired level of bf, but just wondering how to maintain this level and being safe about it...not sure if being on a constant keto diet is safe or unsafe, as Im still a bit new to this stuff...man I got alot of reading to do.
08-08-2008, 10:20 PM
also, on the high carb days, I think I will just do 2 pills of AP twice a day, 8 hours apart 15 mins before big carb meals.
08-08-2008, 10:53 PM
Actually, why do you consume postworkout carbs while on a keto diet?!
Pre: Carb reactive individuals would/shoudl transition to a diet reflecting controlled carb intack simillar Zone, Isocaloric or pay special attention to the Glycemic Index (includion of vegetables/fibrous food etc.).
Post: You would/should be amazed at how well carb reactive individuals respond to AP. This could be the cure all to your less than ideal responses to carbohydrates.
Do I neccessarily have to be on a keto/ or similar diet year round? No. Both pre/post AP responses reflect choices available.[Not that it really matter b/c I will do what I gotta do to maintain my desired level of bf, but just wondering how to maintain this level and being safe about it...I would suggest you get your blood work done. After going keto for over a year (Anabolic Diet style = gain weight AND minimize fat gain) my blood work appeared nomral, that is, minus elevated HDL levels. Yep, you read that right, heightened HDL levels!!!not sure if being on a constant keto diet is safe or unsafeSome have adverse reactions to it. Again, get your blood work done. That way you will know what is happening inside, as Im still a bit new to this stuff...man I got alot of reading to do.[/QUOTE]
Learning takes a life time!
08-08-2008, 11:12 PM
If it were me, I would space out the AP as much as possible. Your body will be sucking up those carbs like sponge, so spreading the refeed out (as opposed to a couple carb dense meals) will maximize glycogen restoration and the anabolic cascade associated.
Just my 2 cents...
08-10-2008, 03:21 PM
alright, I read all of those links, and a few more threads on the differences of keto diets as well as the anabolic diet. I have a few more questions.
Pre & Post workout nutrition:
Pre - Obviously its important to have carbs before a workout to give you fuel for the workout itself. Im asuming complex carbs maybe 45 min before would be suffiecient. (oats, or possibly WMS here?)
Post - You asked me earlier whats the reason for post w/o carbs during a keto diet. Well, generally the reason for simple carbs here is to have an insulin boost which is anabolic, refuel glycogen levels, and helps other nutrients absorb faster...correct? But on a keto diet, it seems like you want your glycogen levels depleted at all times untill the two high carbs days..right? So, post w/o carbs in a simple form would not be a good idea. Obvisouly such a high insulin spike will kick you out of ketosis. So, is WMS a possibility here? Im not sure how WMS and insulin are related, as some state that WMS if fast digesting, but slow acting, which seems somewhat contradicting.
I am definately going to lower the carbs down from 100g to 30g from now on, mostly coming from oats, WMS, and veggies.
As far as carbs in geneeral, when is the best times to intake carbs on a keto diet. Usually the only times I would have carbs would be morning in first meal, pre&post w/o. Other than that it would be veggies in mid day, and at night with dinner. Im not sure if carbs in the morning would be crucial since I take ephedrine in the morning which gives me a boost untill lunch time. So, would a good carb layout be 15G WMS pre w/o, and 15G wms post w/o be sufficient during the low carb days?
Also, from reading those links and other material, it seems as if I might not be eating enough fat. I concentrate on trying to increase my fat intake a bit and see how that helps out with energy levels...maybe switching from egg whites to whole eggs in the morning, adding more olive oil to cooking meats, and more read meats/fish during the week.
High carb days, I will stick to leaner meets and concentrate on getting as much carbs in as I can for those 2 days.
Supplements - I will now start to cycle ephedring 5days on(low carb days) and two days off (high carb days) like mentioned in the links. I think this will also be a good idea to give my receptors a rest.
LMK how this is looking. Im trying to get better understanding of it all, but so far most of my research is coming from those links above, which mainly have to do with CKD. I am going to look more into the TKD as well as the anabolic diet, but they all seem closely related.
08-10-2008, 07:22 PM
Great job reading...there is so much to take in regarding keto diets. Ok, it has been some time since I even spoke about keto diets to anyone, but I am contemplating another go at it. So I went over to Lyle McDonald's website, bodyrecomposition dot come and decided to peruse the books he had listed. To make a long story short, I ordered The Ultimate Diet 2.0. So, I am guessing after a couple months of lean bulking, I will give it a go (wife and kids are carb addicts).
My comments are listed below in bold.
08-10-2008, 07:47 PM
Dank, one thing I do with PWO shakes in CKD is blending oil and protein powder. I like the taste.
08-10-2008, 09:11 PM
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