BCAA Ratios

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    BCAA Ratios


    Not starting this one with studies, just starting the conversation. Overall, there isn't particularly good info I've seen as to optimal BCAA ratios. Even more difficult though is beyond that determining dollar value. Just as the example, if 10g bcaas cost more than twice as much as whey, even if they provide more anabolic response than 10g of whey, do they provide more than 20g?

    I'm willing to bet there aren't any studies at all that would look at the financial end, but there probably are some that do look at comparing different doses of different protein/AA sources. This like plenty of other things in the diet/nutrition world is of course based on who is going to pay for the study.

    My own gut feeling is that going outside of the 2:1:1 - 4:1:1 range hits the point where going higher you may as well just get leucine. I need to look again at which aminos are the rate limiters in which processes to be sure as far as going to lower ratios. I've never seen any that were below 2:1:1.

    So what does anyone else think?

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    Subbed. I'd like to see this conversation look at necessity--are bcaa's helpful when already on a high protein diet (don't think a study has really looked at this ever) and ratios if at all possible.
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    2:1:1 is my vote.

    While extra leucine may possibly be beneficial the current available (human) research does not support it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoforce View Post
    Subbed. I'd like to see this conversation look at necessity--are bcaa's helpful when already on a high protein diet (don't think a study has really looked at this ever) and ratios if at all possible.
    I think but am not entirely sure that one of Lyle McDonalds studies or other analysis showed there is still some benefit to the 5g+ leucine inbetween meals even on a high protein diet. I'm going to go look for that
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    Leucine all the way unless megadosing BCAAs, eating a low protein diet, or consuming it fasted for 16+ hours. I will elaborate later
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    there is still some benefit to the 5g+ leucine inbetween meals even on a high protein diet.
    WRT leucine added to protein honestly it doesnt seem to be as clear

    It does - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15562251/

    It doesnt http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17697406/ - albeit in elderly but that shouldnt matter considering - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16960178/ which is why I say it still isnt too clear if leucine added to whey is more anabolic or not

    My understanding of it is ff-leucine needs isoleucine and valine also in free form in order for leucine to be effective. Overall IMO this extra leucine to BCAAs hype all originally started because leucine USED to be the cheapest of the 3 amino's and frankly I am surprised to see it is still being marketed this way despite the near doubling in price.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    WRT leucine added to protein honestly it doesnt seem to be as clear

    It does - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15562251/

    It doesnt http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17697406/ - albeit in elderly but that shouldnt matter considering - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16960178/ which is why I say it still isnt too clear if leucine added to whey is more anabolic or not

    My understanding of it is ff-leucine needs isoleucine and valine also in free form in order for leucine to be effective. Overall IMO this extra leucine to BCAAs hype all originally started because leucine USED to be the cheapest of the 3 amino's and frankly I am surprised to see it is still being marketed this way despite the near doubling in price.
    The last part is not entirely accurate. Plasma depletion when totally fasted is a valid concern but certainly not between meals.

    Leucine is actually more researched than 2:1:1 BCAAs. These other ratios may be marketing BS but they inadvertently deferred to a more research ffAA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post

    Leucine is actually more researched than 2:1:1 BCAAs. These other ratios may be marketing BS but they inadvertently deferred to a more research ffAA.
    Yet not a single clinical study shows a lean body mass gain with leucine supplementation alone over control, do they?

    PMID: 19321567 & PMID: 21487148

    Like I said, the idea is plausible but consdering the current human research that is available, it is not supported while BCAA supplementation is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Yet not a single clinical study shows a lean body mass gain with leucine supplementation alone over control, do they?

    PMID: 19321567 & PMID: 21487148



    Like I said, the idea is plausible but consdering the current human research that is available, it is not supported while BCAA supplementation is.
    I never said leucine will affect body composition. I believe supplementation with ffAAs is pretty much futile unless micromanaged on a chronic scale. IF, however, one choose to use ffAAs, leucine is the way to go. There are no studies on the effects of BCAAs on body composition of trained individuals on a high protein diet, so the evidence is lacking for both BCAAs and leucine
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I never said leucine will affect body composition.
    if we arent discussing lbm gains, than what is it we are looking to gain from leucine supplementation? I will admit if the discussion is on performance enhancement than yes leucine by itself does look to be effective

    There are no studies on the effects of BCAAs on body composition of trained individuals on a high protein diet, so the evidence is lacking for both BCAAs and leucine
    Agreed the research is extremely limited but we can not ignore - PMID : 8709918 can we?

    If not than BCAA supplementation has been shown to increase lbm while leucine alone has not and the idea of extra leucine add to BCAA mixes I maintain is more about marketing than it is evidence based.

    So there is at least some clinical evidence of efficacy for BCAA supplementation (although far from perfect) and again I am not saying the theory of leucine alone is not plausible, I am saying it just isnt supported and BCAAs are.
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    And so we are clear before this gets all jumbled up, is the discussion on leucine alone vs BCAAs? Or 2:1:1 vs ?:1:1 mixes? and what is the standard we are using to judge with? Gains in lbm is what I assumed
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    And so we are clear before this gets all jumbled up, is the discussion on leucine alone vs BCAAs? Or 2:1:1 vs ?:1:1 mixes? and what is the standard we are using to judge with? Gains in lbm is what I assumed
    I consider leucine to simply be an X:0:0 ratio so whatever. And the discussion is open to anything. For instance, both BCAAs and leucine have demonstrated ergogenic effects in fasted individuals, which one could extrapolate would affect body composition over months or years of fasted workouts
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    So let me ask, why do you feel leucine alone is superior to BCAAs? And in what respect do you feel it to be better?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    So let me ask, why do you feel leucine alone is superior to BCAAs? And in what respect do you feel it to be better?
    I don't feel either are effective for body composition and use neither. However, leucine is clearly the key player in the rat data. I'd be more inclined to ask, why do you feel the other 2 BCAAs contribute to an anabolic response when leucine is the so called anabolic signal
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    This is almost precisely the discussion i wanted to have as it its difficult to wade through where there is value in AA supplementation, and at what doses/what circumstances that it has financial value vs whole protein supplementation
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I don't feel either are effective for body composition and use neither. However, leucine is clearly the key player in the rat data. I'd be more inclined to ask, why do you feel the other 2 BCAAs contribute to an anabolic response when leucine is the so called anabolic signal
    Dr Connelly has described leucine as more of an anabolic door. You need it to open the door but it's not doing all the work once it's open. Layne agreed and he's the one publishing some of the leucine rat research. I realize their comments on the matter are vague.
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    I train fasted.... I have my pre workout and hit the gym. Have a 50 gram protein shake right after... should I be supplementing BCAA on workout days? Is it worth the cost? Will I notice a difference on or off? (Man clout is current pre)
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    Another one pointing to leucine not being the end all be all

    http://jp.physoc.org/content/590/11/2751.long
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callejul
    I train fasted.... I have my pre workout and hit the gym. Have a 50 gram protein shake right after... should I be supplementing BCAA on workout days? Is it worth the cost? Will I notice a difference on or off? (Man clout is current pre)
    Not really the proper forum section for this question bud...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    I don't feel either are effective for body composition and use neither. However, leucine is clearly the key player in the rat data. I'd be more inclined to ask, why do you feel the other 2 BCAAs contribute to an anabolic response when leucine is the so called anabolic signal
    For the sake of discussion I am basing my responses based on their ability to result in an anabolic (raise in lbm) for its use.

    Now, I dont view leucine as the "the anabolic signal" per se. While it does cause an increase in protein synthesis, the research has shown this does not equal increased lbm. I find BCAAs > leucine alone because this is what the research supports. Now if I were to make a hierarchy it would be Whey > EAA > BCAA > leucine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post

    I also think the whole BCAA ratio discussion is a bit redundant because we don't even know wether leucine/BCAA supplementation on top of a protein rich diet is beneficial in the first place.
    But we do see that EAA + arginine supplementation on top of a protein rich diet (1g/kg) does seem to result in greater gains in lbm and strength

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18294740/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez

    Not really the proper forum section for this question bud...
    Eh, its still in line. A little better if it was "would taking in bcaas pre/peri workout mean i could take less in protein after", but part of the discussion does need to be application oriented. If i found a substance that changed all the blood markers we think are related to obesity, but doesn't actually cause fat loss or changer mortality, who cares? And at the financial end, if it takes a $1 dose of AAs to make as much difference as a 50 cent dose of pea protein, why bother with free form AAs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    Another one pointing to leucine not being the end all be all

    http://jp.physoc.org/content/590/11/2751.long
    Yes, I knew I'd seen this somewhere! This is what I was trying to dig up when I said that ffAA supplementation wasn't of much merit. This is, as far as I know, one of the few (if only) leucine vs EAA vs WHOLE PROTEIN studies I've seen in a relevant population
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelbolic View Post
    If this is the case wouldn't you expect a full spectrum of EAA is needed to maximize MPS?

    There is also human research that directly discredits Layne's MPS refractoriness theory. For example this paper* from Stuart Phillips' group shows that MPS is still elevated 3-5 h after exercise+ protein consumption. It was not only still elevated, but MPS even increased compared to the 1-3 h window. According to Layne's theory MPS should be returned to baseline 2 h after protein consumption.

    I also think the whole BCAA ratio discussion is a bit redundant because we don't even know wether leucine/BCAA supplementation on top of a protein rich diet is beneficial in the first place. There is much (indirect) evidence against this hypothesis.

    *http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/94....full.pdf+html
    Fwiw I think he's backed off the refractory period stuff a bit as of late.

    We keep getting studies like the below that use well trained lifters, but don't document diet. I'd like to think that these guys know how to eat. But you never know. Stuart and company did a nice protein/anabolism review earlier this year that seemed to indicate that rapid aminoacidemia (via EAA from whey) is more important than anything in the post-wo window. So yes, I think the full spectrum of EAA is probably important.

    J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2012 May 8;9(1):20. [Epub ahead of print]Exercise-induced muscle damage is reduced in resistance-trained males by branched chain amino acids: a randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled study.

    Howatson G, Hoad M, Goodall S, Tallent J, Bell PG, French DN.
    Abstract

    ABSTRACT:
    BACKGROUND:

    It is well documented that exercise-induced muscle damage (EIMD) decreases muscle function and causes soreness and discomfort. Branched-chain amino acid (BCAA) supplementation has been shown to increase protein synthesis and decrease muscle protein breakdown, however, the effects of BCAAs on recovery from damaging resistance training are unclear. Therefore, the aim of this study was to examine the effects of a BCAA supplementation on markers of muscle damage elicited via a sport specific bout of damaging exercise in trained volunteers.
    METHODS:

    Twelve males (mean +/- SD age, 23 +/- 2 y; stature, 178.3 +/- 3.6 cm and body mass, 79.6 +/- 8.4 kg) were randomly assigned to a supplement (n = 6) or placebo (n = 6) group. The damaging exercise consisted of 100 consecutive drop-jumps. Creatine kinase (CK), maximal voluntary contraction (MVC), muscle soreness (DOMS), vertical jump (VJ), thigh circumference (TC) and calf circumference (CC) were measured as markers of muscle damage. All variables were measured immediately before the damaging exercise and at 24, 48, 72 and 96 h post-exercise.
    RESULTS:

    A significant time effect was seen for all variables. There were significant group effects showing a reduction in CK efflux and muscle soreness in the BCAA group compared to the placebo (P < 0.05). Furthermore, the recovery of MVC was greater in the BCAA group (P < 0.05). The VJ, TC and CC were not different between groups.
    CONCLUSION:


    The present study has shown that BCAA administered before and following damaging resistance exercise reduces indices of muscle damage and accelerates recovery in resistancetrained males. It seems likely that BCAA provided greater bioavailablity of substrate to improve protein synthesis and thereby the extent of secondary muscle damage associated with strenuous resistance exercise. Clinical Trial Registration Number: NCT01529281.
    Nutr Metab (Lond). 2012 May 17;9(1):40. [Epub ahead of print]Nutritional regulation of muscle protein synthesis with resistance exercise: strategies to enhanceanabolism.

    Churchward-Venne TA, Burd NA, Phillips SM, Research Group EM.
    Abstract

    ABSTRACT: Provision of dietary amino acids increases skeletal muscle protein synthesis (MPS), an effect that is enhanced by prior resistanceexercise. As a fundamentally necessary process in the enhancement of muscle mass, strategies to enhance rates of MPS would be beneficial in the development of interventions aimed at increasing skeletal muscle mass particularly when combined with chronic resistance exercise. The purpose of this review article is to provide an update on current findings regarding the nutritional regulation of MPS and highlight nutrition based strategies that may serve to maximize skeletal muscle protein anabolism with resistance exercise. Such factors include timing of protein intake, dietary proteintype, the role of leucine as a key anabolic amino acid, and the impact of other macronutrients (i.e. carbohydrate) on the regulation of MPS afterresistance exercise. We contend that nutritional strategies that serve to maximally stimulate MPS may be useful in the development of nutrition andexercise based interventions aimed at enhancing skeletal muscle mass which may be of interest to elderly populations and to athletes.

    PMID: 22594765 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] Free full text
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    Fwiw the McMasters guys are saying anywhere from 1.3 to 2.0 g/kg for well trained athletes (more if you are in a caloric deficit):

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69

    Yes, I knew I'd seen this somewhere! This is what I was trying to dig up when I said that ffAA supplementation wasn't of much merit. This is, as far as I know, one of the few (if only) leucine vs EAA vs WHOLE PROTEIN studies I've seen in a relevant population
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