RPN Havoc Log, 42 y/o male

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    RPN Havoc Log, 42 y/o male


    I am running the log on my own site (sig), but will copy here since rules say no posting links to external log.

    I've read interesting things about Havoc, so I thought I'd give it a try. My progress has crawled to a halt over the last year-and-half; I injured my back summer of 06 and never got back into heavy squats and deadlifts, which had been yielding good results for about 4 months before the injury.

    Combine this with me being 42 years old and you have all the ingredients for a guy about to give up on gaining and just focus on maintenance.

    After reading about Havoc, I thought I'd try to see if I can still add some muscle....

    Background: been lifting for over 20 years, on the ectomorph scale I'm a 10. All natural - never used.

    Will try to get some pictures up

    Best lifts:
    Bench: 285 (9 years ago - can't flat bench anymore because of elbows!)
    Squat: 365 (summer 06 right before injury)
    Deadlift: 435 (summer 06 right before injury)

    Supps:
    Havoc pulse dosing M/W/F
    Cycle Support on Havoc days
    ErgoPharm 1-NO pre-workout supp on Havoc days
    Integrated Supplements Whey Protein Isolate (28g per) 4x on workout days, 2x on off days
    Creatine 10mg/day
    Glucosamine 5mg/day


    Friday 4 Jan (20mg Havoc)
    Weight: 184.5
    Morning Protein
    Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/1-NO 60 mins before workout (9:30am)
    Havoc 10mg 30 mins before workout
    Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/Havoc 10mg after
    After work protein

    Workout
    Squats (smith) 135x5, 160x5, 185x5, 215x3
    Inc Press 115x5, 130x5, 155x5, 170x3
    Underhand Pulldowns 120x5, 135x5, 155x5, 180x3
    Clean to Press 95x5, 105x5, 115x5, 125x3
    Yates Row 135x5, 135x5, 135x5
    30 mins heavy bag work (Muay Thai)

    About 3 minutes after I took the 1-NO, I had this intense tingling rush the spread up my chest and neck into my face. Weird.

    Didn't notice anything else special. Energy was good, felt sort of hyper. Suspect the 1-NO. No sides. Weights were easy, but I'm starting light.
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    Jan 7

    Just protein 2x a day over the weekend
    Ran 2 miles on Sunday

    Monday, Jan 7 (30mg Havoc)
    Morning protein
    Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/1-NO 45 mins before workout
    Havoc 10mg 30 mins before
    Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/Cycle Support/Havoc 10mg after workout
    Protein/Havoc 10mg upon arriving home after work (5:00pm)
    Protein 9:00pm

    Workout
    Weight: 187
    Squats (smith) 140x5, 165x5, 185x5, 215x5
    Inc Press 115x5, 130x5, 155x5, 170x5
    Underhand Pulldowns 120x5, 140x5, 160x5, 180x5
    Mil Press 100x5, 110x5, 120x5, 130x5
    Yates Row 135x5, 135x5, 135x5
    30 mins heavy bag work (Muay Thai)

    Got the weird rush from the 1-NO again.... Just to be sure is wasn't me being a psycho, I gave some to a co-worker who also lifts. About 3 minutes later he told me his face felt as though he'd just dry shaved and then splashed on aftershave and that his fingertips tingled too. So it's not just me. I picked 1-NO because no caffeine or other stims - wonder what causes the tingling?

    We went to the gym at the same time, we don't workout together. He later told me his energy was more than normal, but he felt more tired after his workout than usual. He's not taking any other supps.
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    Jan 8

    Took cold measurements:

    Neck: 15.5"
    R Upper flexed: 15.25"
    L Upper flexed: 15"
    R forearm: 12"
    L forearm: 11.5"
    Chest (relaxed): 43"
    R Leg flexed mid-thigh: 22"
    L Leg flexed mid-thigh: 22"
    R Calf: 15"
    L Calf: 14.75""

    No weights today; 1.5 hours Muay Thai training.

    morning protein w/6 oz orange juice
    mid-morning protein/cycle support/creatine/glucosamine
    mid-afternoon protein w/water
    evening protein after Muay Thai

    Had a headache come on after Muay Thai, but that happens occasionally because I sweat so much. I down 32oz of water during the 1.5 hours of training too. I weighed 186.5 right before I went to bed. I usually lose a pound or 2 of water weight from Muay Thai....
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    Wednesday, Jan 9 (30mg Havoc - 3rd dose)
    Morning protein w/8oz orange juice
    Protein/Creatine/Glucosamine/Cycle Support/20mgs Havoc 60 mins before workout
    1-NO 30 mins before workout
    Protein/Havoc 10mg after workout
    Evening Protein w/8oz orange juice

    Weight: 187

    Workout
    Squats: 140x5, 165x5, 185x5
    Deadlift: 230x5, 255x5, 280x5
    Inc Press: 120x5, 135x5, 150x5
    Pec Dec: 125x5, 140x5
    Seated Row: 125x5, 140x5, 155x5, 175x5
    Clean to Press: 85x5, 100x5, 115x5
    Dips x 15
    Cable curl 85x12
    20 mins heavy bag work (Muay Thai)
    15 mins stretching

    Got the same tingle from the 1-NO. I need to look that stuff up and see what's in it. Not supposed to have any stims....

    Felt pumped today. I don't usually feel a pump because I do compound exercises with (for me) medium heavy weight only 5 reps. I had a noticeable pump in my chest and triceps after doing the inclines (I use a shoulder width grip). My arms were tight after finishing with the dips and curls. Also had some back pump that was nagging me during deads. Read that Taurine can help with that - might get some. Also noticed a tight back last night during Muay Thai.

    My headache from last night persisted into this morning. I was drinking a ton of water, peeing like every 30 minutes. Was barely noticeable by the time I went to the gym and faded out during my workout. No headache now. Dunno if it's leftover from last night or not.... Noticed that my eyes felt drier and crustier than usual this morning. My elbows bothered me less today while working out than usual.

    I'm feeling stronger and think I look a bit 'harder', but that might be placebo effect. The pump I got today was definitely real. I'm not near my max weights from when I was strongest, but I'm keeping my form strict.

    Ass to heels on squats
    Clean to press from the thighs with minimal legs (front row to press)
    Shoulder width grip on the press, 2 secs down, slight pause on the chest, explode up
    No rocking on the rows
    Hips low on the deads

    So far so good!
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    Photos:

    Caveats:
    No posing experience
    Posing cold
    No tan
    Just ate dinner
    42 years old!




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    Why bother with the pulse? User feedback says it shuts you down just as much but produces less gains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
    Why bother with the pulse? User feedback says it shuts you down just as much but produces less gains.
    I did a ton of reading before deciding to pulse. The threads I read (mostly here by Bloute and Dr. D) seemed to support the consensus that because of Havoc's half life, you didn't get as much shut down with the pulse, and that pulsing would be easier on the liver.
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    Trying to sneak this through unnoticed, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdango View Post
    I did a ton of reading before deciding to pulse. The threads I read (mostly here by Bloute and Dr. D) seemed to support the consensus that because of Havoc's half life, you didn't get as much shut down with the pulse, and that pulsing would be easier on the liver.
    Thats "in theory" read the logs of people who pulsed.
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    You're going to love havoc I'll be following your progress. Good luck with the log!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdango View Post
    Got the weird rush from the 1-NO again.... Just to be sure is wasn't me being a psycho, I gave some to a co-worker who also lifts. About 3 minutes later he told me his face felt as though he'd just dry shaved and then splashed on aftershave and that his fingertips tingled too. So it's not just me. I picked 1-NO because no caffeine or other stims - wonder what causes the tingling?
    The Beta Alanine in the 1-NO is causing the tingle. It's normal. Do some research on Beta Alanine for more information.

    In the meantime, lookin good! I'm def gonna follow your progress since your size and body type is very similar to mine and I would like to pulse an epithio product in the future! Good luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
    Thats "in theory" read the logs of people who pulsed.
    Thanks Frank

    I'm a stone noob at AAS and soaking up as fast as I can. I read logs extensively before taking this step. I wanted to avoid post cycle therapy, limit side effects, and minimize liver effects. The majority of the logs I read reporting pulse dosing as a solution for someone with these goals. So I'll try it and judge for myself.
    Last edited by Webdango; 01-10-2008 at 02:51 PM. Reason: correction
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    SuBBeD!

    I would recommend that you run this cycle straight thru... Pulsing is just a theory and has no scientific backing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthew76 View Post
    Pulsing is just a theory and has no scientific backing.
    Matt i see what you're saying here, however modern medicine was built upon many different theories that advanced us to the point we're at today. Pulsing is integrated in modern medicine more often than you would think and it is in my experience applied often with antibiotic(to minimize hepatic/nephro toxic effects while maintaining sufficient blood levels) and long term corticosteroid therapies.

    It's used most specifically in people with organ transplantation, auto-immune diseases(rheumatoid arthritis,lupus,crohn's disease) copd, and dermatological issues such psoriasis. Those long term corticosteroid therapies can cause a horrible cushing's syndrome due to chronic exogenous intake. I say if you can attempt to minimize the side/adverse effects while gaining most of the intended benefit of a drug or therapy its worth it in my book.

    Edit: Sorry for the hijack webdango

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    Thanks Trauma-

    I was beginning to doubt my chosen protocol. I'm not prepped to do any sort of PCT and, due to my age, was looking for a regiment to minimize the stress on my body.

    In consideration of a straight-thru cycle in the future, Are there any effective OTC PCT products?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webdango View Post
    Thanks Trauma-

    I was beginning to doubt my chosen protocol. I'm not prepped to do any sort of post cycle therapy and, due to my age, was looking for a regiment to minimize the stress on my body.

    In consideration of a straight-thru cycle in the future, Are there any effective OTC PCT products?
    No Problem. I will say that you should ALWAYS have a pct in place prior to beginning any cycle pulse or not. Pulsing should help minimize shutdown, however like anything in life everyone can be effected at a different level.


    If you have any other questions regarding havoc you can address them in our RPN section to help limit the clutter in your log. Check out the pct section and do your research on a good pct program as you'll find many knowledgeable guys on this board that will help you out.

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    Hey just a suggestion for the OP, possibly try transdermal formestane during your pulse cycle, it may keep sides minimal and increase gains?

    *This is just a suggestion someone else should clarify this*

    Im using transdermal formestane during my 60mg 5 week epistane cycle. I have 3 weeks left and I have gained 12lbs, and +30lbs to all my lifts, although joint pain is a problem. I have perfect libido, and absolutly no sides at all.

    Although im using Nolva for my post cycle therapy.

    Edit: Im also getting bloodwork for mid cycle, so ill know how much of my test is shutdown.
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    Jan 10
    Did more research on pulsing and am sticking with it.

    Ordered some POST Cycle Support however, and will add that on off-days.

    Muay Thai 6:00pm- 7:30pm

    Supps
    Morning protein w/1% milk
    Mid-morning protein/cycle support w/water
    Afternoon protein
    Before bed protein

    I've noticed my back has been tighter than usual, even walking around it starts to tighten up, so I ordered some Taurine; will try 2-3g a day and see if that helps. Chiro appointment tomorrow.
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    Dude you need a hardcore post cycle therapy either way or you will be back here in a month complaining about your limp c0ck and zero libido.

    Also I dont agree that formestane or "Post Cycle Support" will do anything while on Havoc - its an AI which will lower estrogen - but so is Havoc. You will have low estrogen either way, Havoc shuts you down because it attaches to androgen receptors, which signals your body to stop producing as much testosterone.

    You need a Serm and an AI do get your balls back AFTER you are done trust me.

    Anyway good luck and I hope you dont screw yourself up.
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    I want to see your progress as I'll start my pulse cycle in a couple of weeks...

    ...though overall some speculate the pulse cycle method I will just have to see for myself...much like you'll have to see what pulsing does for you...good luck!
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    Jan 11

    Supps
    Morning protein w/orange juice
    Protein,Cycle Support/Creatine/Glutamine/20mg Havoc 1 hour before workout
    1-NO 30 mins before workout
    Protein/10mg Havoc after workout
    Evening protein w/orange juice
    Bedtime protein w/1% milk

    Weight 186.5
    Workout
    Squats (smith) 140x5, 165x5, 185x5, 225x3
    Inc Press 120x5, 135x5, 160x5, 175x3
    CG Pulldowns 125x5, 145x5, 160x5, 185x3
    Mil Press 100x5, 110x5, 120x5, 130x3
    Yates Row 115x5, 130x5, 145x5
    20 mins heavy bag work (Muay Thai)
    Max Dips (23)
    Hammer Machine Churls, 55x16

    VERY amped today, very positive attitude, tons of energy. Workout was awesome, weight floated. Got very pumped. Guy at the gym I hadn't seen in a couple of weeks asked if I'd changed my workout because I looked 'bigger'. I definitely looked harder and more swollen in the mirror. Sweet. Back pump was noticeable, but manageable.

    On the downside, I woke with a runny nose and sore throat this morning. I rarely get sick, 1-2 times a year. Haven't been sick in a while. How ironic that I get a cold 1 week after starting Havoc?
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    I felt like million bucks also my first week of havoc. I also felt some mild cold like symptoms that only lasted a couple days.

    I know that pulsing real AAS was done way back..... as I read in Clarence Bass' "Ripped." He pulsed back in 79 and still got most of the gains, and apparently did not get shut down too bad, they did not even use PCT back then, and he did not mention shutdown like he did with his ED AAS cycle.

    FWIW I would not pulse, I took havoc ED and gained a lot of strength and volume, and about 10#s. Others commented that the gains were noticeable.

    I would drop the NO to prevent back pumps... plus at about 2 weeks on havoc it will kick in hard and even your regular workout pumps will be very intense and painfull if you are on NO. Are you upping your cals and protein?
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    I've kept my diet the same (about 80% clean), with the exception of adding the protein supplements. So my cal count is +-around 600 a day due to the protein.

    Ideally, I'd like to see my bodyweight stay the same, but lose some fat. Be nice to have a six-pack again....

    I like the energy I get from the 1-NO, I'll stick with it uneless the pumps become unmanageable.

    12 Jan/13 Jan
    Took it easy, no weekend run due to the cold. Symptoms are mild: runny nose, slight sore throat. I think I'm already on the tail end of it.

    Supps
    12 Jan
    Morning protein/cycle support/post cycle support/1mg taurine w/8oz orange juice
    afternoon protein
    nightime protein w 8oz 1% milk

    13 Jan
    morning protein w/8oz orange juice
    evening protein/cycel support/1mg taurine w 8oz/orange juice
    nightime protein/post cycle support w/8 oz 1% milk

    Felt kinda run down most of the weekend, no doubt due to the cold....
    Last edited by Webdango; 01-13-2008 at 03:22 PM. Reason: spelling
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    14 Jan

    Supps
    am Protein/1mg Taurine w/8oz orange juice
    protein/cycle support/20mg havoc 60 mins before workout
    1-NO 30 mins before workout
    Protein/10mg Havoc after workout
    after work protein w/8oz milk
    bedtime protein w 8ox/orange juice

    weight 188
    workout
    Squats 5x150,5x170,5x195,5x225
    Incline Press 5x120,5x140,5x155,5x175
    Underhand Pulldowns 5x125,5x145,5x160,5x185
    Mil Press 5x100,5x110,5x120,5x130
    Yates Row 5x105,5x120,5x140
    Dips x max dips (25)
    Hammer Strength Seated Curl 55xmax (18)

    Was feeling sort of off today in the morning, maybe because of the cold, though the only symptom I have left is a slightly runny nose. The 1-NO perked me right up though, and by the time I got to the gym I was feeling ready to go.

    Got all weights easily, zipped through the workout, only rest 45 - 60 seconds between sets, sometimes even faster. Another guy at the gym saw me and asked if I'd changed my workout. I definitely felt fuller and bigger, esp my upper arms and shoulders. Back pump was still there, but manageable.

    My primary goal with Havoc was to trim some fat. With that in mind, I measured my mid-section. Should have done it at the start.

    Parallel to floor where I wear my pants (2 inches below navel): 35"
    Around midsection at navel: 35.75"

    I'm sorta feeling like a fat bastard, considering I was 29 when I graduated college....
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    Today is normally Muay Thai after work, but I have a dental appointment on the other side of town and I'm not going to fight traffic to get back, so no workout today.

    I'm feeling pretty lethargic anyway.... my cold lingers, having resolved to sinus congestion. My right shoulder is bothering me too, a dull ache that came on yesterday evening. My lower back is also very tight and bugging me....

    Supps:
    a.m. protein/1mg taurine w/orange juice
    noon protein/cycle support/1mg taurine w/water
    2 tabs post cycle support before leaving work
    evening protein w/1% milk
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    16 Jan

    Supps
    a.m. protein/1mg taurine w/orange juice
    protein/creatine/glutamine/20mg Havoc w/water 60 mins pre-workout
    1-NO/1mg taurine 15 mins pre-workout
    protein/cycle support/10mg Havoc w/water post-workout
    afternoon protein
    evening protein

    weight: 190

    workout
    Squats 150x5,170x5,195x5
    Deads 240x5, 265x5, 290x5
    Incline Press 120x5, 140x5, 155x5
    Pec Dec 90x10, 105x10
    Seated Row 125x5, 145x5, 160x6, 180x5
    Clean to Press 90x5, 100x5, 115x5
    Dips Max
    Hammer Strength Seated Curl 60xMax
    20 mins heavy bag work
    Stretching

    My cold is still hanging on by it's fingernails. Runny nose and some post nasal drip irritating the back of my throat. Sneezing and blowing my nose all the time is getting old.

    Energy during the workout was moderate to low, although I got all weights and reps easily. My right should is still bothering me, though I had no problems doing my routine. My back was good through the work out - no worse or better than usual - but once I started my bag work it tightened up very quickly. I had to cut that short, and my stretching too. Once I got back into a good chair at the office it settled down, but it was really bothering me for a while.
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    Are you using a stim to combat the lethargy? Sorry to hear about that stubborn cold lingering, but keep pushing forward my friend and you'll be rewarded with great results in the end.

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
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    Thanks for the pep talk Trauma. No stims, except for the morning cup of coffee. I think my low energy was more due to a poor night's sleep and the tail end of my cold.

    I felt better yesterday, had a very good Muay Thai session. Only challenge was my back. Not sore, but tight. I gritted teeth and pushed through the Muay Thai, but it sure felt good when I finally settled into my drivers seat for the 25 minutes home. By the time I stepped out of my car, I was OK.

    Back in the gym today....
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    Good sleep is second only to good diet for gains and health.

    :::waves finger chastisingly:::
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
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    Hmmmm dont listen to him, he keeps me up all the time at night, wakes me up because he cant sleep
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    Sleep? What is this thing called sleep? I have heard of it....

    Between getting my two kids into bed and rising at 5:00am to drive to work, I average around 6 hours a night during the week. I've gotten used to it though...
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    18 Jan

    Supps
    a.m. protein w/orange juice
    protein/creatine/glutamine/20mg Havoc w/water 60 mins pre-workout
    1-NO/1mg taurine 15 mins pre-workout
    protein/cycle support/10mg Havoc w/water post-workout
    evening protein

    weight: 190

    workout
    Squats 150x5,170x5,195x5,235x3
    Incline Press 120x5, 140x5, 155x5,180x4
    Underhand Pulldown 125x5, 145x5, 165x6, 190x4
    Mil Press 95x5,105x5,115x5,130x3
    Dips Max (30)
    Hammer Strength Seated Curl 65xMax (17)
    25 mins heavy bag work
    Stretching

    Feeling great today! Energy back up, 95% over the cold, had a fantastic workout - got all weights and reps easily. Was thinking I might have started this 4x5 routine a little to conservatively.

    Plenty of energy, positive attitude. Back pump slight, much better than Wednesday and during Muay Thai the night before.
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    Glad to see another "old guy" like me jump on the Epi train.
    I just started an Epi 30mg/day Prop 90mg/day stack a couple days ago.

    Man, are you really taking 1mg/day Taurine?
    I would take 4-6 GRAMS/day to keep those back pumps at bay.
    It helps big time. You'll know when they hit you!

    Good luck with the Havoc! I'll be watching!
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotTest View Post
    Man, are you really taking 1mg/day Taurine?
    I would take 4-6 GRAMS/day to keep those back pumps at bay.
    Agreed, I keep the taurine in the 3-5 grams/day range and it usually works out well. Back pumps when you get them can become a complete hinderance while training.

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
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    I ran a 4wk cycle of Havoc last August saw awesome results was a great cutter. 3 caps a day spread evenly Backpups were not that bad. Gained about 6 lbs lean mass kept all of it.Going to run another cycle spring early summer.Suggestions for a good stack are welcomed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corona View Post
    I ran a 4wk cycle of Havoc last August saw awesome results was a great cutter. 3 caps a day spread evenly Backpups were not that bad. Gained about 6 lbs lean mass kept all of it.Going to run another cycle spring early summer.Suggestions for a good stack are welcomed
    What did you use for PCT?
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    I used Lg's Formadrol Extreme Had an extra bottle left from a Methyl 1 D Cycle . Worked out great.
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    19/20 Jan

    GotTest - that should be 1g, not mg, but I will bump up per your advice.

    No exercise over the weekend....

    I did, however, build the Mother of All Treeforts for my kids...

    The area, the entrance, the path, framing 1,2,3, finished 1,2,3,4
    Attached Images Attached Images           
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    Awesome tree fort ......kids must be psyched!

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
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    Man, don't let my kid's see that. They'll want one in the front yard.
  

  
 

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