Hot-Rox ???????

Unclemikejones · Nov 21, 2005

Whats up all. can any one tell me anything about Hot-Rox, the new fat loss pill :head:

poopypants · Nov 21, 2005

ya your gay and need a haicut. But ya look up Guggle sterone since that is one of the main ingredients in Hot-Rox thats not a stimulant like caffine.

some others to look up here for fatloss that is popular would be melting point, lean extreme, sesamin and T3.

whats the new one from ALRI guys?

Ubiquitous · Nov 21, 2005

synthetic guggulsterones E and Z.. main ingredient.. increases iodine uptake in the thyroid or something like that.. it works good for fat loss.. and btw, it's been around for a while.

biotest and it's sycophants suck nuts though.

poopypants · Nov 21, 2005

Ubiquitous said:
synthetic guggulsterones A and Z.. main ingredient.. increases iodine uptake in the thyroid or something like that.. it works good for fat loss.. and btw, it's been around for a while.

biotest and it's sycophants suck nuts though.

Thanks U got any ideas/experience with the others i mentioned? im not real big on the fat loss supps except for what i skim over here.

this is my bro and he's lookin to shed fat with out having to go through an extreme cut and possibly lose muscle mass, hes dedicated his diets down and he will make good progress naturally but hes lookin for a little help as we all are.

what is the "best" fat loss agent out? what is the "best" non-stimulant out?

any info is apreciated. thanks guys:thumbsup:

Unclemikejones · Nov 21, 2005

Extreme

nice :clap2:

jasonschaffin · Nov 22, 2005

I'm not too sold on this product. Guggul always sounds nice but some searching on here and bb.com (the few who actually know, not the kids there) and your opinion on it may change a little. The other ingredients though,
Sclaremax-increases cAMP levels (I would just use Forskolin)
And I dont remember what they call it but they put in a 7-keto with some type of ester attached for absorption (I'm thinking along the lines of blaze) which could work well but is probably underdosed.
Then standard caffeine of course. I would have to say much better fat burners out there for the money, but I'm bulking what do I know.

edit:did a quick search on here and didn't find the info I was looking for. Maybe it was only on bb.com where I read bad stuff about guggul. If that is true take it with a grain of salt I guess. Ill keep looking.

jasonschaffin · Nov 22, 2005

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=466547&highlight=guggul
Mol Pharmacol. 2005 Mar;67(3):948-54. Epub 2004 Dec 15. Related Articles, Links

The hypolipidemic natural product guggulsterone is a promiscuous steroid receptor ligand.

Burris TP, Montrose C, Houck KA, Osborne HE, Bocchinfuso WP, Yaden BC, Cheng CC, Zink RW, Barr RJ, Hepler CD, Krishnan V, Bullock HA, Burris LL, Galvin RJ, Bramlett K, Stayrook KR.

Lilly Research Laboratories, Lilly Corporate Center, Indianapolis, IN 46285, USA. [email protected]

Guggulsterone (GS) is the active substance in guggulipid, an extract of the guggul tree, Commiphora mukul, used to treat a variety of disorders in humans, including dyslipidemia, obesity, and inflammation. The activity of GS has been suggested to be mediated by antagonism of the receptor for bile acids, the farnesoid X receptor (FXR). Here, we demonstrate that both stereoisomers of the plant sterol, (E)- and (Z)-GS, bind to the steroid receptors at a much higher affinity than to FXR. Both stereoisomers bind to the mineralocorticoid receptor (MR) with a Ki value of approximately 35 nM, which is greater than 100 times more potent than their affinity for FXR. Both (E)- and (Z)-GS also displayed high affinity for other steroid receptors, including the androgen (AR), glucocorticoid (GR), and progesterone receptors (PR) with Ki values ranging from 224 to 315 nM. In cell-based functional cotransfection assays, GSs behaved as antagonists of AR, GR, and MR, but as agonists of PR. Agonist activity was also demonstrated with estrogen receptor (ER) alpha; however, the potency was very low (EC50 > 5000 nM). In addition, GS displayed activity in functional assays in cell lines expressing endogenous AR, GR, ER, and PR. These data suggest that the variety of pharmacological effects exhibited by GS may be mediated by targeting several steroid receptors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by systemX
Ummm... so in simple terms this means what???

basically that it blocks the androgen receptor (the receptor that makes testosterone and other steroids "work")

and that it activates the progesterone receptor, which I beleive is why people fell "hot", basically a menapausal "hotflash"

There that is what I was talking about reading on bb.com. Now if anyone here is smart enough to tell us if this is right or not it would be appreciated I'm sure.

3clipseGT · Nov 22, 2005

poopypants said:
Thanks U got any ideas/experience with the others i mentioned? im not real big on the fat loss supps except for what i skim over here.

this is my bro and he's lookin to shed fat with out having to go through an extreme cut and possibly lose muscle mass, hes dedicated his diets down and he will make good progress naturally but hes lookin for a little help as we all are.

what is the "best" fat loss agent out? what is the "best" non-stimulant out?

any info is apreciated. thanks guys:thumbsup:

IMO the best non stimulant out there has to be MP , that for me was better then any stim or not stim ever, even better then ephedra. I keep my muscle and i look leaner by the day it seems. Great great product bro. :dance:

jasonschaffin · Nov 22, 2005

Just started my girl on some MP, we will see how it does over the holidays. 4 caps/day and an extra 2 at night if she has a bad eating day (which were getting to be less and less bad eating days!) Started 3 days ago, only have one bottle so we will see how it goes, may need another. Any good results and I'll let everyone know (not much info for MP and women I know).

poopypants · Nov 22, 2005

sounds good guys thatnks for the info. I wasnt aware that MP was a non-stimulant, makes it all the more apealing.

Any other opinions out there boys? i know all you cutters out there gotta have some favorites

JonesersRX7 · Nov 22, 2005

jasonschaffin said:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=466547&highlight=guggul
Mol Pharmacol. 2005 Mar;67(3):948-54. Epub 2004 Dec 15. Related Articles, Links

The hypolipidemic natural product guggulsterone is a promiscuous steroid receptor ligand.

Burris TP, Montrose C, Houck KA, Osborne HE, Bocchinfuso WP, Yaden BC, Cheng CC, Zink RW, Barr RJ, Hepler CD, Krishnan V, Bullock HA, Burris LL, Galvin RJ, Bramlett K, Stayrook KR.

Lilly Research Laboratories, Lilly Corporate Center, Indianapolis, IN 46285, USA. [email protected]

Guggulsterone (GS) is the active substance in guggulipid, an extract of the guggul tree, Commiphora mukul, used to treat a variety of disorders in humans, including dyslipidemia, obesity, and inflammation. The activity of GS has been suggested to be mediated by antagonism of the receptor for bile acids, the farnesoid X receptor (FXR). Here, we demonstrate that both stereoisomers of the plant sterol, (E)- and (Z)-GS, bind to the steroid receptors at a much higher affinity than to FXR. Both stereoisomers bind to the mineralocorticoid receptor (MR) with a Ki value of approximately 35 nM, which is greater than 100 times more potent than their affinity for FXR. Both (E)- and (Z)-GS also displayed high affinity for other steroid receptors, including the androgen (AR), glucocorticoid (GR), and progesterone receptors (PR) with Ki values ranging from 224 to 315 nM. In cell-based functional cotransfection assays, GSs behaved as antagonists of AR, GR, and MR, but as agonists of PR. Agonist activity was also demonstrated with estrogen receptor (ER) alpha; however, the potency was very low (EC50 > 5000 nM). In addition, GS displayed activity in functional assays in cell lines expressing endogenous AR, GR, ER, and PR. These data suggest that the variety of pharmacological effects exhibited by GS may be mediated by targeting several steroid receptors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by systemX
Ummm... so in simple terms this means what???

basically that it blocks the androgen receptor (the receptor that makes testosterone and other steroids "work")

and that it activates the progesterone receptor, which I beleive is why people fell "hot", basically a menapausal "hotflash"

There that is what I was talking about reading on bb.com. Now if anyone here is smart enough to tell us if this is right or not it would be appreciated I'm sure.

That's the study that swayed me not to take them.

JonesersRX7 · Nov 22, 2005

Bane said:
After reading the studies on the above post, my personal conclusions, as a pharmacist, about guggulsterones are:
-The positive studies about Guggulsterones were done mainly in India, a 3rd world poor country, which produces the stuff. As far as Patrick Arnold claiming Indian studies are reliable, I respect Patrick Arnold for his knowledge in Organic Chemistry, but he is not God and he also sells the stuff.
-Other studies done failed to show any conclusive, clear positive benefit for Guggulsterones, either for thyroid stimulation or cholesterol control. Some studies indicated that Guggulsterones might have negative impact in LDL cholesterol levels and fat storage in the liver. Also, the positive reports came mostly from studies of the past.
-Even if Guggulsterones has some positive impact in Cholesterol, there are other, by far more safe, proven and cheap supplements that can aid in Cholesterol management(Flax/Fish oil,Fiber, Garlic e.t.c.).
As for the claim that Guggulsterones+diet seemed as effective as drugs administered for hypercholesteremia, diet itself can be more efficient for hypercholesteremia than drugs that are taken without proper diet.
-As far as the douptful effect of thyroid stimulation by guggulsterones goes, it should be noted that the enhanced production of T3/T4 by the thyroid gland could theoritically, in long term use, lead to lower production of TRH from the hypothalamus(TRH production is lowered when T3/T4 levels are higher, that is the reason athletes taking Cytomel e.t.c. sometimes end up with thyroidical atrophy).
-Guggulsterones at some studies seem to have an antiinflammatory effect. Again, more proven,safe and effective herbal/drug remedies exist(Harpagophytum, Cissus, NSAIDs e.t.c.)
-As for the study comparing Guggulsterones against tetracyclines for the reduction of acne, this study compared Guggulsterones to only a single antibiotic (tetracyclines have a high occurence of bacterial immunity), the difference was not overly significant( 65.2% as compared to 68% with gugulipid) and again there are better options against acne(green tea oil, Zinc, Tretinoin creams e.t.c.)
-The most worrying issue is that in this clinical test:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attach...4&d=1131551019
guggulsterones E&Z proved to be highly cytotoxic. The Brine Shrimp Lethality Test(BST) is a common test in phramacological research, used in preliminary theraupetic rese4arch to determine cytotoxicity. In a few words, shimp eggs are taken, put in tubes and in the tubes is added the tested compound in various concentrations. After some time ,the amount of the dead eggs in various concentrations is measured. If a compound is deemed highly cytotoxic then, unless it's theraupetical value proves great, is generally dissaproved for phaurmaceutical usage, as it is very possible to have toxic effects in various tissues, most prominantly the GI tract(proved also from the fact that GI disturbances are the most commonly reported side effects of guggulsterone) and the liver(Guggulsterones also affects liver metabolism, so people on liver stressful sonditions should avoid it). Cytotoxic substances taken for long term are considered to be carcinogenics(in case of ingested ones, they primarily increase the risk of cancer of the GI tract and the liver).
-There is also the report of one 55 year old man who suffered rabdomyolisis from Guggulsterones. PErsonally that does not worry me a lot, since single cases of adverse(and potentially fatal) reactions can be had from almost any substance, but it is something to be taken in concern.
-All in all, Guggulsterones in my opinion fail to meet so far all the efficacy/safety creteria for all the purposes they are administered now. The only effect they seem to create s the Hot Flush effect(also produced by Niacin) which makes people believe they have improved thermogenesis. In all cases, if a supplement with Guggulsterones is taken, usage for more than one month is highly not recommended.
__________________
There is no cure for stupidity

...

poopypants · Nov 22, 2005

JonesersRX7 said:
...

all good info guys thanks. Anyone able to tell me more about sesamin and a few of the other fat cutting agents?

JonesersRX7 · Nov 22, 2005

poopypants said:
all good info guys thanks. Anyone able to tell me more about sesamin and a few of the other fat cutting agents?

Can you be more specific... what about them?

Starting in March when I cut I am planing on doing AMP/HEAT stack and then CreEthyl Thunder/Melting point stack --- Need to check and see if at same time or alternated.

poopypants · Nov 22, 2005

ya just generals, in mosts opinion what is bunk and what brings results and by what route does it do so ie. thyroid, stimulant the like.

hmm the CEE/MP stack looks good, any one feel any negetive effects from mp (melting point)? like strength loss, fatigue, sleeplessness?

thanks again guys.

jmh80 · Nov 22, 2005

How about a lipoderm + clenbuterol transdermal?
Or a 7-oxo T/D (depending on fat type).

I loved clen's fat burning capabilities, just hated the headaches and cramps when I tried to run.

bioman · Nov 22, 2005

I agree on the Guggul..not really worth it except maybe as a temporary treatment for an acne flare up. I never saw much fat loss from it and the warm sensation quickly fades after a few days.

JonesersRX7 · Nov 22, 2005

jmh80 said:
How about a lipoderm + clenbuterol transdermal?
Or a 7-oxo T/D (depending on fat type).

I loved clen's fat burning capabilities, just hated the headaches and cramps when I tried to run.

Lipo rocks as far as leaning out my midsection... def would recommend that.

Never was able to get ahold of raw clen.. scared of it in powder form. Maybe next time tho.

3clipseGT · Nov 22, 2005

poopypants said:
ya just generals, in mosts opinion what is bunk and what brings results and by what route does it do so ie. thyroid, stimulant the like.

hmm the CEE/MP stack looks good, any one feel any negetive effects from mp (melting point)? like strength loss, fatigue, sleeplessness?

thanks again guys.

I ran MP for 4 weeks and that leaned me out super quick. my g/f shat herself and told me she hated me on a daily basis because of how lean i got on it. The only downside but its also diet related is i was tired here n there, didnt really lose to much strength. Cramps were a huge problem but that can be alleviated. Also i kept all my size, didnt lose an inch on my arms or anything i measure, just fat really.

I love MP and will not go to anything else. :head:

poopypants · Nov 23, 2005

Great thanks for all the info and opinions guys, it should be enough to make a decision.:goodpost: :thumbsup:

Unclemikejones · Nov 24, 2005

Thanks ya'll

cubbybear · Nov 24, 2005

jasonschaffin said:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=466547&highlight=guggul
Mol Pharmacol. 2005 Mar;67(3):948-54. Epub 2004 Dec 15. Related Articles, Links

The hypolipidemic natural product guggulsterone is a promiscuous steroid receptor ligand.

Burris TP, Montrose C, Houck KA, Osborne HE, Bocchinfuso WP, Yaden BC, Cheng CC, Zink RW, Barr RJ, Hepler CD, Krishnan V, Bullock HA, Burris LL, Galvin RJ, Bramlett K, Stayrook KR.

Lilly Research Laboratories, Lilly Corporate Center, Indianapolis, IN 46285, USA. [email protected]

Guggulsterone (GS) is the active substance in guggulipid, an extract of the guggul tree, Commiphora mukul, used to treat a variety of disorders in humans, including dyslipidemia, obesity, and inflammation. The activity of GS has been suggested to be mediated by antagonism of the receptor for bile acids, the farnesoid X receptor (FXR). Here, we demonstrate that both stereoisomers of the plant sterol, (E)- and (Z)-GS, bind to the steroid receptors at a much higher affinity than to FXR. Both stereoisomers bind to the mineralocorticoid receptor (MR) with a Ki value of approximately 35 nM, which is greater than 100 times more potent than their affinity for FXR. Both (E)- and (Z)-GS also displayed high affinity for other steroid receptors, including the androgen (AR), glucocorticoid (GR), and progesterone receptors (PR) with Ki values ranging from 224 to 315 nM. In cell-based functional cotransfection assays, GSs behaved as antagonists of AR, GR, and MR, but as agonists of PR. Agonist activity was also demonstrated with estrogen receptor (ER) alpha; however, the potency was very low (EC50 > 5000 nM). In addition, GS displayed activity in functional assays in cell lines expressing endogenous AR, GR, ER, and PR. These data suggest that the variety of pharmacological effects exhibited by GS may be mediated by targeting several steroid receptors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by systemX
Ummm... so in simple terms this means what???

basically that it blocks the androgen receptor (the receptor that makes testosterone and other steroids "work")

and that it activates the progesterone receptor, which I beleive is why people fell "hot", basically a menapausal "hotflash"

There that is what I was talking about reading on bb.com. Now if anyone here is smart enough to tell us if this is right or not it would be appreciated I'm sure.

Wow. This raises a couple of questions for me. I remember a while back reading a Hot Rox thread they had over at t-nation and somebody asked about using the product with Superdrol. I think it was Cy Wilson who said it would be fine. However, from the above quote I'm not sure if that's really the case. I don't know a whole lot about receptors or specifically which ones the products Superdrol, PP or the pre-ban M1T relate to. For example if M1T relates to the androgen receptor which has been blocked this would mean that the M1T would then not be able to "work"? Would Superdrol or would PP have the same scenario that those would also to any significant degree be rendered useless? Which receptors do the newer pheromone or progestin-based products relate to? Do some of the products actually relate to the pheromone receptor, in which case if that is activated would possibly increase the effects (good or bad) of those products or create additional sides through the specific functions of that receptor?

At any rate, I'm looking forward to trying the MP since there has been so much real-world (as opposed to company hype) positive feedback from seemingly everybody who has tried it and has posted their results.

bioman · Nov 24, 2005

That's probably why it helps with acne..particularly cystic acne as that is androgen related. Hmm.

Good post Cubby.

poopypants · Nov 24, 2005

these are all great questions/idea guys thanks! lets just keep em going.

im very interested as well for the sake of knowledge as to wether or not PP attaches to a diff receptor other then the androgen receptor, and although i now never plan on taking a guggle sterone compound id like to know what kind of effects may come in to play with the stacking???? other than possibly diminishing sd's effects (or any other ph/steroid)

The Streets · Nov 25, 2005

Hey guys,

I have been reading abotu MP, heat. amd AMP but I am not convinced. I have used ephedra and had very little effects outside of a small energy boost in the morning from it. Also, I have tried Clen, and with that, I noticed no difference in fat loss, but I did see an increased pump in the gym, almost like creatine. I have been stuck at 200lbs for a year and a half, and I want to cut down on fat while getting stronger and packing on more lean muscle.

What would you suggest for the best fat loss supps/stacks? Also, what is the best bulking stacks?

Nutrition and diet isnt a problem, I eat healthy, and I can also restrict my diet down to whatever it needs to be to see results, so I dont need an apetite supressor, just a true fat burner.

Thanks
Steve

Iron Warrior · Nov 25, 2005

poopypants said:
what is the "best" fat loss agent out? what is the "best" non-stimulant out?

any info is apreciated. thanks guys:thumbsup:

I really like sesathin as a fat loss agent and health supp as well. Haven't tried Melting Point yet but feedback has been good on it so you can't go wrong with either one IMO

Unclemikejones · Nov 27, 2005

its been a week now....NIce i am at 177 i was at 181.5. (i do a good amount of cardio, i bmx ride)

mywetnightmares · Nov 28, 2005

I used SD when it first came out while cutting along with Hot rox. I got some minor gyno somewhere in the last year, it's not major so I wasn't sure when exactly I got it, but I was pretty sure I got it during one of my three sd cycles. Do you think that I could have gotten it during my cutter due to the prog. activation?

piepiezzz · Feb 16, 2006

3clipseGT said:
I ran MP for 4 weeks and that leaned me out super quick. my g/f shat herself and told me she hated me on a daily basis because of how lean i got on it. The only downside but its also diet related is i was tired here n there, didnt really lose to much strength. Cramps were a huge problem but that can be alleviated. Also i kept all my size, didnt lose an inch on my arms or anything i measure, just fat really.

I love MP and will not go to anything else. :head: