Ursobolic Log

[henryv]

Hi, you have received -296 reputation points from henryv.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
i think higher dosing = better

Regards,
henryv

Price ursolic acid reasonably and I'll be the first to take your advice. I would love to replicate the doses given to rats in humans but given the dose per bottle the price to do so would be outrageous. You're talking about upwards of a gram of UA daily; and the 'recommended dosage' on the bottle doesn't even come close to the dose given to rats in the U of I study.

I'm trying to do the best I can on a limited budget; I don't see any reason why UA would be completely ineffective in lower doses, but I did justify my reasons for taking it as I am in my initial post.

It also says a lot about Henry's attitude if he negs people because they don't mega dose.

Lol. In case it wasn't obvious it was supposed to be a rep, not a neg. I accidentally negged someone else on here the other day when I was trying to rep them (bdcc iirc). Not sure how it happened, never happens anywhere else.

[msbachman]

The dosing suggested by msbachman is not in keeping with the suggested dosing on the product. 3-6 caps 3 x a day with food. Standard dosing does not equate to mega dosing in my opinion.

What you're calling "standard dosing" is something E-Pharm threw onto a new product with limited human testing. It's completely arbitrary with no basis to the mechanisms of action of UA.

Can anyone on E-Pharm's bankroll please give me a coherent explanation for why the heck drawing the dosage out to some 3x the timespan recommended by the manufacturer is going to totally negate the supplement's effects?

Also, for your dosing you're taking the low end of the "recommended dose". The high end is more likely to approximate the doses given to the rats in the U of Iowa study, but even then I think Ursobolic is underdosed. That's some 900 mg., split among 18 pills. A bottle will last less than a week.

Owing to the physical properties of ursolic acid powder it doesn't pack well so it takes more caps to contain it. You can't pack down what won't pack down.

Then why pack it? Put it in a bottle with a scooper in it or get a >25% extract.

What about this can you not wrap your head around?

Your response certainly endears E-Pharm to me.

I'm trying to best utilize UA by the info available concerning how it works. We don't know the minimum effective dose in humans (in rats it seems to be 0.14% of food content), so your analogy to alcohol is inapplicable.

[msbachman]

bachmans putting me off lol

I'm sorry I didn't quite understand your previous response; I thought it was a statement rather than a question. I don't yet have a reliable source for high-potency UA powder; I am working on it, however.

If I find something, I'll be sure to message you to let you know. In due time, however, I think competing brands will enter the market. Time will tell....

[miniarnold]

I'm sorry I didn't quite understand your previous response; I thought it was a statement rather than a question. I don't yet have a reliable source for high-potency UA powder; I am working on it, however.

If I find something, I'll be sure to message you to let you know. In due time, however, I think competing brands will enter the market. Time will tell....

yes hit me up if you do find a reliable UA source
cheers

[bdcc]

Lol. In case it wasn't obvious it was supposed to be a rep, not a neg. I accidentally negged someone else on here the other day when I was trying to rep them (bdcc iirc). Not sure how it happened, never happens anywhere else.

I can confirm this neg rep as true lol. It hurt me deep.

Henryv is not going to neg people because they aren't running the higher dose. Science runs in his arguments far more than most people's and he is usually one of the first to admit the downfalls in the product's science and dosing scheme i.e. limited human testing.

[truthornothin]

First I want to apologize for taking so long to get back to you. I work on Sundays, I saw your post this morning but did not have time to provide an adequate response. I am also sorry I hurt your feelings. I often use the term "Wrap my head around" when I am talking about my understanding of things, perhaps when saying that to others it may in fact come across as terse or brusque. Perhaps I was channeling my inner PA. At any rate I meant you no offense but I must admit, your logic confounds me. Lets start at the beginning shall we?

msbachman Registered User

I'm dosing unconventionally as follows: three caps prior to a workout, and three caps prior to bedtime. In this fashion with my workout regimen (4x weekly) I can stretch a single bottle at this dosing about 3.5 weeks.

You state up front that you are dosing unconventionally and you are seeking to stretch out your bottle to 3.5 weeks, with the low end of suggested as I am dosing it a bottle lasts roughly 2 weeks

My rationale for such a regimen is as follows: ursolic acid works as an ergogen by potentiating IGF-1. Being as IGF-1 follows the release of GH--IGF-1 being released due to the release of GH--it makes sense to me to utilize ursolic acid in such a way to have it metabolized at the very point at which GH is likely to peak. When is this? The first few hours of sleep as well as during a workout.

How do you know when the ursolic acid you ingest will be metabolized and useful to the involved tissues? If you have links please share. It seems from the anecdotal evidence that this is an effect that builds up over time not something one would see from a single dose Many factors come into play here, you would have a much better chance of ursolic acid exerting its effects if it were contiuously available to do so. Instead of hoping you had its metabolism, and your GH peak perfectly timed , which I feel is highly unlikely.

If anyone sees any flaws in my dosing plan, please let me know

You invited criticism, if you do not welcome it you should not have asked for it

I'm trying to do the best I can on a limited budget; I don't see any reason why UA would be completely ineffective in lower doses, but I did justify my reasons for taking it as I am in my initial post.

I never said it would not be totally ineffective at lower doses, but then again it could be. I hope that it is, believe it or not I purchased most of mine same as you and the first four bottles at a premium price. You always run the risk of using too little. There are minimum effective doses of any efficacious substance. You beat up my alcohol example, but I was only using it to illustrate that there is a level of alcohol you can consume and get no discernible effect. Trust me I understand about a limited budget. I barely make it pay check to paycheck. But if I am going to pay for something I am going to take in efficacious amounts or else all I've done is waste part of my budget.

Originally Posted by msbachman
What you're calling "standard dosing" is something E-Pharm threw onto a new product with limited human testing. It's completely arbitrary with no basis to the mechanisms of action of UA.

And you believe the dosing to be arbitrary because???? ...What is your basis for that statement? From what I understand its How PA dosed it himself once he got actual capsules. I am running that amount in my log as I am trying to duplicate his results. Eat more drink more get leaner. Thus far it is working just as promised

Also, for your dosing you're taking the low end of the "recommended dose". The high end is more likely to approximate the doses given to the rats in the U of Iowa study, but even then I think Ursobolic is underdosed. That's some 900 mg., split among 18 pills. A bottle will last less than a week.

You are playing both sides of the fence and this is where your logic totally escapes me. On one hand you argue that there is nothing wrong with your substandard dosing, then on the other hand you argue that my low end standard dosing is not enough. If at the dose you think you should run the bottle lasts a week that is irrelevant, the bottle cost $14.00 most places on line. It would be $56
total to run at what you think the dose should be per month. There are many supps that cost that much per bottle. So what if you need 4 bottles if the price nets the same? PA stated he got smaller caps and a smaller bottle than was asked for, hence the low price per bottle. What name brand supp can you get a month supply for $14.00 NOW doesn't count. Why are you so hung up on number of bottles or number of capsules? At the high end you are discussing it comes to a whopping $1.86 per day. Bulk 11 oxo is more to run per day than that.

I said

[QUOTE]Owing to the physical properties of ursolic acid powder it doesn't pack well so it takes more caps to contain it. You can't pack down what won't pack down.[QUOTE]

You replied

Then why pack it? Put it in a bottle with a scooper in it or get a >25% extract.

This one is easy, ursolic acid is highly hydrophobic, it does not mix with water at all. It just lays on top. You would have to stir it into oil and drink that. Most people are not going to deal with that, nor anyting that doesn't taste good. Else all supps would be sold in bulk. As far as increasing the concentration of the extract? That is simple too, price. You already complain about the price, you certainly wouldn't want to pay more would you?

Again I am sorry if I offended you. It was not intentional but you invited the criticism. I hope that it does work for you at the dose you are taking. If it does I'll happily drop my dose and buy more Jointforce with the savings. As far as the smaller capsules I thought of a decided advantage, it allows you to customize your dose in smaller increments thus giving your more ultimate control over your dosing scheme.

I hope that the rest of your Sunday is pleasant and that your experience with Ursobolic is a good one.


And that's the Truth

[msbachman]

How do you know when the ursolic acid you ingest will be metabolized and useful to the involved tissues? If you have links please share. It seems from the anecdotal evidence that this is an effect that builds up over time not something one would see from a single dose Many factors come into play here, you would have a much better chance of ursolic acid exerting its effects if it were contiuously available to do so. Instead of hoping you had its metabolism, and your GH peak perfectly timed , which I feel is highly unlikely.

I'll try to better explain my rationale. I believe the effects that you're seeing seem to be due to the substance 'building up' over time, but could also be from the substance's effect at specific times of the day. I'm betting on the latter, which is why I'm dosing so close to the typically peaks of GH release.

You might very well be right--UA might need to build up in one's system. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't. People who use IGF and GH tend to 'show' results some six to eight weeks' down the road--certainly we wouldn't claim that the substance takes this long to build up in the system. (I'm basing these conjectures on testimonials, I've never used IGF/GH, though I do attempt to manipulate my own release of it via low-GI foods pre-workout and before bed) IGF/GH put in work immediately, it's just the nature of the compounds that they can't produce visible results without some two months' time.

Owing to what little I know about IGF's half-life, as soon as I heard that this could potentiate the body's natural production of it (see the ergo-log entry on UA, it mentions this (can't yet post links)), I thought this would be an interesting experiment to try.

As a budget-conscious consumer, of course I'm going to gripe about the price; I want everything as cheap as possible!

I never said it would not be totally ineffective at lower doses, but then again it could be. I hope that it is, believe it or not I purchased most of mine same as you and the first four bottles at a premium price. You always run the risk of using too little. There are minimum effective doses of any efficacious substance. You beat up my alcohol example, but I was only using it to illustrate that there is a level of alcohol you can consume and get no discernible effect. Trust me I understand about a limited budget. I barely make it pay check to paycheck. But if I am going to pay for something I am going to take in efficacious amounts or else all I've done is waste part of my budget.

Point taken. However, we won't know the minimum dose someone can skirt by with until someone (like me) tries it. I'll be the first to admit you very well may be right; however, the numbers I've put up in the gym speak for themselves. I've used just under a bottle (I think I have some three or four pills left actually); you'll soon see that my methods bear further consideration.

And you believe the dosing to be arbitrary because???? ...What is your basis for that statement? From what I understand its How PA dosed it himself once he got actual capsules. I am running that amount in my log as I am trying to duplicate his results. Eat more drink more get leaner. Thus far it is working just as promised

Well, from what you've written the dose is based on a n=1 study. I know this Patrick Arnold fellow has some special significance in the creation of Ursobolic--perhaps he's highly sensitive to its effects. Or, insensitive. We just don't know the proper range of doses people would do well to try; I'm definitely going towards the low end, but perhaps for some people it might work.

You are playing both sides of the fence and this is where your logic totally escapes me. On one hand you argue that there is nothing wrong with your substandard dosing, then on the other hand you argue that my low end standard dosing is not enough. If at the dose you think you should run the bottle lasts a week that is irrelevant, the bottle cost $14.00 most places on line. It would be $56
total to run at what you think the dose should be per month.

Well see I first heard about Ursobolic and was under the impression that it was 150mg per pill; I don't know where I saw this, but it was on some forum post. A serving is indeed 150mg, but it takes three pills. My initial idea was to dose something like 1-1.5 grams, keep upping the dose from some 1/3 of that figure until I started seeing results. But I just can't afford to run that sort of experiment on a limited budget.

My initial plan went out the window for budgetary concerns. Regarding what's stated on the bottle, to get even close to a gram, I'd need some 18 pills daily (900 mg UA). Given what I stated previously about the length of time needed to see results on IGF/GH supplementation, I didn't see this method as feasible. Hence I took a bet on the aforementioned IGF-potentiation conjecture.

This one is easy, ursolic acid is highly hydrophobic, it does not mix with water at all. It just lays on top. You would have to stir it into oil and drink that. Most people are not going to deal with that, nor anyting that doesn't taste good. Else all supps would be sold in bulk. As far as increasing the concentration of the extract? That is simple too, price. You already complain about the price, you certainly wouldn't want to pay more would you?

I'll refer you to NOW L-Arginine and Dymatize creatine. The former is the most god-awful tasting substance known to man, a combination of rotting fish and bear bile. The latter mixed in water tastes like you're drinking a 50/50 mix of water:sand.

People will go to varying extremes in the pursuit of fitness. Myself and many others would deal with cottonmouth and/or a 'sand-shake' in the process.

I'd also be willing to pay a bit more per bottle for increased value; say, $50 for a 1 KG bottle of 75% UA powder. That'd give me a years' worth of 2 gram daily doses. Make it happen, E-Pharm!

Again I am sorry if I offended you. It was not intentional but you invited the criticism.

I was being more sarcastic than anything with my last quip in the previous post. I was a bit riled up by your response but it's fantastic to actually be able to converse with product reps. like you and henryv, even if we don't agree on the dosage issue.

Sincere thanks for the dialogue, stay tuned/subscribe so you can check out my results. Soon.

[truthornothin]

I'll try to better explain my rationale. I believe the effects that you're seeing seem to be due to the substance 'building up' over time, but could also be from the substance's effect at specific times of the day. I'm betting on the latter, which is why I'm dosing so close to the typically peaks of GH release.

You might very well be right--UA might need to build up in one's system. On the other hand, maybe it doesn't. People who use IGF and GH tend to 'show' results some six to eight weeks' down the road--certainly we wouldn't claim that the substance takes this long to build up in the system. (I'm basing these conjectures on testimonials, I've never used IGF/GH, though I do attempt to manipulate my own release of it via low-GI foods pre-workout and before bed) IGF/GH put in work immediately, it's just the nature of the compounds that they can't produce visible results without some two months' time.

Owing to what little I know about IGF's half-life, as soon as I heard that this could potentiate the body's natural production of it (see the ergo-log entry on UA, it mentions this (can't yet post links)), I thought this would be an interesting experiment to try.

As a budget-conscious consumer, of course I'm going to gripe about the price; I want everything as cheap as possible!



Point taken. However, we won't know the minimum dose someone can skirt by with until someone (like me) tries it. I'll be the first to admit you very well may be right; however, the numbers I've put up in the gym speak for themselves. I've used just under a bottle (I think I have some three or four pills left actually); you'll soon see that my methods bear further consideration.



Well, from what you've written the dose is based on a n=1 study. I know this Patrick Arnold fellow has some special significance in the creation of Ursobolic--perhaps he's highly sensitive to its effects. Or, insensitive. We just don't know the proper range of doses people would do well to try; I'm definitely going towards the low end, but perhaps for some people it might work.



Well see I first heard about Ursobolic and was under the impression that it was 150mg per pill; I don't know where I saw this, but it was on some forum post. A serving is indeed 150mg, but it takes three pills. My initial idea was to dose something like 1-1.5 grams, keep upping the dose from some 1/3 of that figure until I started seeing results. But I just can't afford to run that sort of experiment on a limited budget.

My initial plan went out the window for budgetary concerns. Regarding what's stated on the bottle, to get even close to a gram, I'd need some 18 pills daily (900 mg UA). Given what I stated previously about the length of time needed to see results on IGF/GH supplementation, I didn't see this method as feasible. Hence I took a bet on the aforementioned IGF-potentiation conjecture.




I'll refer you to NOW L-Arginine and Dymatize creatine. The former is the most god-awful tasting substance known to man, a combination of rotting fish and bear bile. The latter mixed in water tastes like you're drinking a 50/50 mix of water:sand.

People will go to varying extremes in the pursuit of fitness. Myself and many others would deal with cottonmouth and/or a 'sand-shake' in the process.

I'd also be willing to pay a bit more per bottle for increased value; say, $50 for a 1 KG bottle of 75% UA powder. That'd give me a years' worth of 2 gram daily doses. Make it happen, E-Pharm!





I was being more sarcastic than anything with my last quip in the previous post. I was a bit riled up by your response but it's fantastic to actually be able to converse with product reps. like you and henryv, even if we don't agree on the dosage issue.

Sincere thanks for the dialogue, stay tuned/subscribe so you can check out my results. Soon.

You are very welcome and thank you. When I wrote the response I knew the reception was going to be one of two ways, I am glad it was this one. I have read a lot of articles on gh release and Igf as well. The trouble is that there is so much that can interfere with the GH pulse that it is unreliable. This is why I feel it may be better to have more UA circulating in your system at any given time the better chance it can exert its effects. I am getting very good results with 9 caps a day see my log here Truthornothin's Ursobolic Log The Whole Truth and Nothing But the Truth! I am 32 days in, it is very detailed and I currently have pic from the start mid way and recent. My original goal was to run it for 8 weeks, but I think I am going to run it longer. I have drastically increased calories while maintaining my cuts. Lately I am noticing that muscle groups that I am concentrating on are coming up much faster than I would have anticipated. This makes total sense based on the Iowa study.

I am totally with you on economy. Just so you know I have only been a rep for a few weeks now, but I have been an Ergo Pharm E-Pharm customer for ten years plus

Regarding taste, if you look around the boards you will see lot of people complaining about the taste of supps that taste perfectly fine. I've swallowed a lot of bulk powder, most of it nasty especially the herbal extracts like cissus and rhodiola, not only nasty tasting but sticky and hard to clear out of your mouth as well. Have you ever tasted Yellow Gold from NP? Give that a try. Vomit is the only apt flavor description that applies. I capped it for a while and it just became too tedious so I just parachute it or used to a year or so ago. NASTY!! But you and I are hardcore the masses not so much. Any questions feel free to ask and thanks for the spirited debate without getting angry I am subscribed to your thread and will be following along.

Hope your week goes well,

[ConcreteConny]

Wow this log blew up Lots of reading

[warsteiner]

What about this can you not wrap your head around?

Now you are just starting to get frustrated that everyone isn't loving this product as much as you are

I'll take your point about the dosing though but I have seen a few people recommend 18 caps per day, which means a bottle a week. Compare the price of an 8 week run of Ursobolic @ 18 caps with an 8 week run of DAA/Erase and it works out around twice as much and I haven't seen any evidence of better results with Ursobolic to warrant the extra cost.

Am I sceptical? Absolutely, I have been ripped off by the supp industry on countless occasions so I'm definitely not sold on this product yet but it's early days so we'll see what happens when more logs start to appear.

[msbachman]

Okay! As promised, here are the cursory results from the first bottle.

I initially sought to use Ursobolic to stave off atrophy in much the same way as Truthornothin did in his log (linked to above, I can't post links yet). My plan was to zig-zag my caloric content, with three hard 'cutting' days and four moderate 'bulking' days. This works out best for my work schedule.

I only got about a week into doing this when I got tired of cutting and reversed course--from about 10/14 onward it was basically a solid block of bulking, with minimal days running a caloric deficit.

Beginning weight was some 184; ending weight, 188. (I'm still 'on', this just marks the end of the first bottle)


I monitor two exercises very closely for limit strength; I train with Westside methodologies for these groups (on bench and squat), here are my limit strength changes:

Below parallel squat (base): 355
Below parallel box squat (currently): 385

1RM Bench press (base): 245
1RM Bench press rack lockout (bar touches chest when I arch; currently): 255

These are notable gains for me; both lifts are new PRs that I haven't been able to get close to for a good period of time. Both of the new exercises (box vs. normal squat, rack press vs. bench press) are harder for any given weight due to the negation of any stretch reflex.

Some other exercises I have logged include EZ bar curls. Started at 95 for 10; about a week ago I hit 14 with the same weight. Went up to 105 for 10 today.

I quit doing OHP's and replaced them with Hammer strength behind the neck presses. Started with about 70 pounds per side for 12; currently I'm doing 90 for the same reps. I just do Westside RM for shoulders and back, keeps things simpler. I should note that considering the novelty of this exercise, much of the progress could be due to neural adaptations, rather than muscle hypertrophy.

Neutral grip pullups went up as well, from about 12 to 14.

One arms dumbbell rows exploded. Went from around 10 reps with 90 pounds to 15 with 100.


Phase 2:

I've got what I wanted out of 3-6 pills a day; I'm going to see if my gains accelerate/stall with an increased dose. I'm still going to take the pills in the same manner, but I'm going to 5 at a time. This means I'll be taking 5/10 pills, the latter figure on my workout days.

Thusfar I am quite impressed with my progress. I look forward to the next month or so; likely I will dial back the calories somewhat (noting when i do so). This product will really impress me if I can continue to make strength gains with a more prominent block of 'cutting' days.

Thanks again for the support, everyone.