KLEEN - Takes the Bull by the horns! Taurus Nutrition's w/ WYKED & Beta TNP

[MrKleen73]

Well I met up with Matt (Oufinny) last night to trade out some supps, got me some Shift, and now he has some GH supplements. Not a bad trade at all. We had a beer and chatted for a bit but I am used to getting in my room about 9 to begin winding down and I ended up getting there about 10 last night and took al little longer to wind down since amped up from being out and of course due to the lift when I got home so I did not get up this morning for cardio. I knew I had some time I can use at lunch so today I may turn up the intensity on my walk just a notch. Either via doing some hill sprints or just walking up and down some hills, bear crawling, calisthenics, who really knows what I am going to feel like once I get out there but either way I will get out there and burn a few calories at lunch for sure since I missed this morning skipping it at lunch is not an option.

Now back to yesterday and me going for my raw grip high rep PR.

Okay so I had a little extra carbs for my pre-workout meal, I added in a post workout drink someone here at work gave me but to my surprise it set on my stomach and didn't want to move. I was a little worried coming up on the time I knew I was going to be going outside because I had that heavy gut feeling and lets be honest a heavy gut feeling is never good when you are about do do high rep dead lifts. Especially in a garage in Texas. Thanks goodness it wasn't too bad out there. I know that pulling 315 for 20 solid reps is going to be some work, so I have to get my head right. I told myself when a got started I was not going to bounce or use any spring loading to get my reps so each one was deliberately separated enough that I knew for sure that I was at a dead stop then I would pull the weight from the floor. A few things of note, the particle board roof decking I put down under where I do my deads is not quite strong enough to take the last few reps of 315 and there seemed to be some denting going on there. I am definitely going to put a piece of plywood under there as soon as I get the chance.

I had to do some creative plate loading here to get to 315, I only have 2 sets of 45's and several 25 lbs weights because I used to do a lot of loading the bar up with 25 lbs to get really deep in the trap bar deads. Man it basically turns it into a below parallel DB squat at that point. Anyway I digress. I had to do some creative additions of weight so I ended up with a 45, 3 25's, a 10, and a 5 on each side to get to 315. How fun that was coming up with the right combination not to run out of weights or go over for that matter.

Well now lets get down to business. I rosin up my hands get them nice and ready for the lift. Quick warm up sets of 135x12, and 235x8, then it is time for 315x20. I get everything loaded up and start pulling, I get to about 10 and the difference between 305 and 315 starts to become evident. On top of that my hands are really starting to feel the knurls on the bar since it isn't used like a commercial one the knurls are still very fresh. Push on to 12, 13 wow 10 lbs made a difference in the effort here for sure. Things start getting harder and I begin to question if I am going to be able to make it through the set especially with just a raw grip instead of using my versa which were on and flipped around the back of my wrists just in case my grip became the point of failure. By rep 15 I was really working hard to keep moving, I could feel the knurls digging into my flesh with each pull, and making sure that each pull was seperate from the last really seemed to be taking more effort than last time when the first 5-8 reps were basically touch and go type reps that were using a bit of the recoil to get the movement done. So it was more work than I had done in the previous attempts just in the fact I was taking the efficiency out of the move by making sure it was from a dead stop. Soldiering on! About the 17th rep I feel a major sting in my grip, both hands are on fire but my left hand is really bitching, I really need to re-grip the weight but I can tell that I may not be able to get a good grip again if I move hand position. I put that bad boy down and take a second or two never letting go of the bar and continue to pull on through, 18, gasp, gasp, 19, suck wind for a second and PULL, the weight separates from the floor and my ascent is strong. Locked out! 315x20, raw grip, no momentum used, all she wrote BEEEYOTCH!!!

I let go of the bar and stand up, look down at my hands and notice I am missing a callous, part of the skin still stuck to the knurls of the bar. Must have ripped it loose on that 17th rep. Good thing I didn't regrip or I may have noticed it and ended the set prematurely. I am still pretty sure that my max on this would be about 335x20 right now if I just pursued it but I am also pretty sure that my grip would not hold up to that right now. I am going to continue on my journey to get to 405x20 but at some point my grip is going to be a limiting factor. However I am REALLY IMPRESSED with the fact I was able to hold 315 for 20 reps with no grip assistance other than rosin. I will keep my versa's on through out this journey and use them as needed but only once my grip can't be held on it's own. 315x20 with no wraps or gloves is a PR for me. Only because this is the first time I have attempted it. Also any weight that I do after 315x20 will be a PR for me whether using wraps or not. I have never gone beyond 315x20 on Dead Lifts so we are now officially into new territory for me.

I've wondered about this for a while, and how things woudl need to be adjusted when concentrating on muscle gain to keep the fat gain down. It seem like it would be more effective to lift 4 days a week (+20%) and cardio or rest day 3 days a week (-20%) I think thats what I'm going to move towards in a few weeks and adjust as necessary depending on my BF% at the time and whether I do a straight bulk or recomp

I am a firm believer in the practice of lifting 3 times a week to maximize recovery while still getting in enough frequency to make continuous gains. I honestly feel anything more than 4 times a week is excessive unless you are on a cycle of something but even then I still find I get better results with 3 times a week. It gives you some latitude to add in a 4rth workout here and there when you have a lot of drive or want to workout with a friend. It also keeps me on pretty much an every other day low / high calorie cycle with one day at maintenance a week on my rest day which is typically Sunday. However those guys on 4-5 days a week should definitely eat maintenance or just below on one or two of those days when working some of the smaller muscle groups. I include Chest in that as well although it is a HUGE point of focus for many, the actual amount of muscle mass taken up by the pecs/shoulders is pretty minimal. That being the case then for sure the heavy eating days should be used for back training and leg training days. Then maintenance on the other 2-3 lifting days, alternatively you could lower the rest/cardio days calories substancially with no ill effects either. In such cases taking in 50% of maintenance on 2 rest days will not cost you any muscle but will assist in fat burning.

damn, kleen you live in houston...shouldn't be that hard to find a slaughter house to fix you up. hell even here in indy i know several different places that kill the cow and butcher it on site. and you are right, it is much cheaper buying in bulk.



btw-years ago i did drain cleaning for roto rooter, slaughterhouse drains are a bitch, lol.

Finding them isn't a problem, getting the best price is. Even more so than that is getting off my arse to actually do it. I bought a digital antenna for the house so I can cancel cable at home. I have had it now for 2 weeks and it still isn't on my roof. Yet I stand to save $80 a month just by getting my ass up on my roof and doing it... Just one of those things that keeps getting put on a back burner. Now my Dad will be in town this weekend so still not sure I will get that done unless I get up there tonight.

I bet it was a little gross doing the roto rooter in those drains... I imagine some flesh and bone made it back up when retracting those rooters...

[DreamWeaver]

I am going to be going to a few meat markets soon and see who will give me the best deal on buying an entire sirlion. I would love to get about 100 lbs of sirlion in various different cuts. Will be much cheaper that way too.

Yeah, calorie wise I am probably actually being really conservative here but I have a goal. I do expect my muscles to soak this up no problem at all. I am also keeping fat relatively low for me on training days. If I were to template it I would say roundabout goals are 275p, 300c, and 80 fat for a 3000 calorie day, and 250, 250 and 80 for 2700 calorie day.

Costco has a very good deal on sirloins 4 20 oz. sirloins about 2.5 inches thick costs about 21-24 bucks which is cheap here. They're good on the bbq too...

I am a firm believer in the practice of lifting 3 times a week to maximize recovery while still getting in enough frequency to make continuous gains. I honestly feel anything more than 4 times a week is excessive unless you are on a cycle of something but even then I still find I get better results with 3 times a week. It gives you some latitude to add in a 4rth workout here and there when you have a lot of drive or want to workout with a friend. It also keeps me on pretty much an every other day low / high calorie cycle with one day at maintenance a week on my rest day which is typically Sunday. However those guys on 4-5 days a week should definitely eat maintenance or just below on one or two of those days when working some of the smaller muscle groups. I include Chest in that as well although it is a HUGE point of focus for many, the actual amount of muscle mass taken up by the pecs/shoulders is pretty minimal. That being the case then for sure the heavy eating days should be used for back training and leg training days. Then maintenance on the other 2-3 lifting days, alternatively you could lower the rest/cardio days calories substancially with no ill effects either. In such cases taking in 50% of maintenance on 2 rest days will not cost you any muscle but will assist in fat burning.
..

yah I try to stick to 3 times a week, I can't recover as fast as I used to...

[Milas]

I just love being in the gym too much to drop from 5 working days, highlight of the day/week! What I did do is split legs into a quad day and a hamstring day, and have been getting good results growing my legs lately.

Maybe I'll go back to DC style training though for 3 major lifting days, and do ancillary work on the non-working days and eat at or below maintenance.

[ScottyDoc]

I just love being in the gym too much to drop from 5 working days, highlight of the day/week! What I did do is split legs into a quad day and a hamstring day, and have been getting good results growing my legs lately.

Maybe I'll go back to DC style training though for 3 major lifting days, and do ancillary work on the non-working days and eat at or below maintenance.

I'm with you bro, when I am really getting at it, a perfect week for me is 6 lifting days a week, quick 1hr or less blast it out and go home! My split is...
Monday - Heavy Legs & calves(like 10-12 sets of 1 exercise usually leg press or hack squat) I would do real squats but hurt my hip flexor back in the day and it isn't worth the pain for the rest of the week.
Tuesday - Shoulders, traps, & ABs.
Wednesday - Back & Calves.
Thursday - Chest & ABs.
Friday - Light legs & calves (leg extensions, leg curls, all the shaping exercises @ mod. weight higher reps).
Saturday - Biceps, Triceps, Fore-arms, & ABs.

And that Ladies & Gentlemen is how I do it, right or wrong, I don't know, but I love it and it works for me!!!

[p5sky]

I usually stick to 3-4 days/week, recovery is a bitch as we get better (not older). Def will drop to 3/week as I start triathlon prep with 3 days cardio (swim, bike, run) along with 3 wt days.

[MrKleen73]

Costco has a very good deal on sirloins 4 20 oz. sirloins about 2.5 inches thick costs about 21-24 bucks which is cheap here. They're good on the bbq too...

yah I try to stick to 3 times a week, I can't recover as fast as I used to...

There is a costco around here somewhere, we have a Sam's too which is where I go since it is right around the house. Although down here in Texas, there are tons of hispanic owned Meat Markets that you can really get a good deal at if you work at it. Too bad I never learned Spanish, would make that feat much easier.

I just love being in the gym too much to drop from 5 working days, highlight of the day/week! What I did do is split legs into a quad day and a hamstring day, and have been getting good results growing my legs lately.

Maybe I'll go back to DC style training though for 3 major lifting days, and do ancillary work on the non-working days and eat at or below maintenance.

Oh I love being in the gym too. I LOVE lifting, but I get better results and honestly and more importantly take up less of my life / time with the 3 times a week training. I used to love doing a 5 or even 6 day split, or doing 3 on 1 off on a repetitive cycle. Although I did not see as frequent increases in strength that way. For a long time now I have been on the quest to do as little as possible and get the maximum effects. My wife, kids and friends get a lot of my free time and that is the way I like it now. I used to be more of the HOW MUCH CAN I DO mentality when it came to the gym. I looked at the gym as something that I should spend my time trying to wreak as much muscle destruction as possible. The let it build back up, I would train when I was sore and my muscles could barely even move. That was great and an awesome time in my life but now is a different time. I am just about making it easier for my body to build muscle. That means giving just enough effort to cause maximum growth without crossing over the threshold to where my body feels it is in a fire fight to try to make progress in order to survive. The difference is in the efficiency between the two methods. It requires a lot more time and energy to train that often and that hard. Often tearing the muscles down farther than they need to be and spending a lot of effort just repairing the damage before any super compensation can occur. More importantly gradually wearing away at the joints too often for them to have time to fully recover.

I think the biggest thing is finding balance between life and lift. At differing points in our lives we will have different priorities and balances. However if I had found the balance I have not 10 years ago I honestly believe I would be far beyond where I am now regarding strength and muscle mass increases.

I'm with you bro, when I am really getting at it, a perfect week for me is 6 lifting days a week, quick 1hr or less blast it out and go home! My split is...
Monday - Heavy Legs & calves(like 10-12 sets of 1 exercise usually leg press or hack squat) I would do real squats but hurt my hip flexor back in the day and it isn't worth the pain for the rest of the week.
Tuesday - Shoulders, traps, & ABs.
Wednesday - Back & Calves.
Thursday - Chest & ABs.
Friday - Light legs & calves (leg extensions, leg curls, all the shaping exercises @ mod. weight higher reps).
Saturday - Biceps, Triceps, Fore-arms, & ABs.

And that Ladies & Gentlemen is how I do it, right or wrong, I don't know, but I love it and it works for me!!!

Excellent, I am going to use your split as an example of how I might change the eating pattern up.

Monday - Heavy Legs & calves - Big Eat day Maintenance +20
Tuesday - Shoulders, traps, & ABs. Maintenance -10%
Wednesday - Back & Calves. Big Eat day Maintenance +20%
Thursday - Chest & ABs. Maintenance -10%
Friday - Light legs & calves Small increase - Maintenance +10%
Saturday - Biceps, Triceps, Fore-arms, & ABs. Maintenance -20%
Sunday - Rest - Maintenance -20%

On the days you would lift that are Maintenance -10% I would make sure that you have a good amount of carbs and protein post workout, as if it were any other training day then have smaller meals the other 2 times, or even better extend the fast, and then have a really big anabolic meal right after. Either way follow the maxim of getting in as many of your calories as possible during the post workout window.

I usually stick to 3-4 days/week, recovery is a bitch as we get better (not older). Def will drop to 3/week as I start triathlon prep with 3 days cardio (swim, bike, run) along with 3 wt days.

Makes sense to me!

[Milas]

I still like going to the gym, I relish that time, and I go early in the morning so it doesn't disrupt anyone other than me. Efficiency be damned, I just enjoy the time in there! My results are good enough for me, I enjoy the process more!

That's cool though, I get your point, and agree more is not always better!

[MrKleen73]

I still like going to the gym, I relish that time, and I go early in the morning so it doesn't disrupt anyone other than me. Efficiency be damned, I just enjoy the time in there! My results are good enough for me, I enjoy the process more!

That's cool though, I get your point, and agree more is not always better!

Oh for sure and that is why I said we all have different points of balance. As I got more priorities I had to change some of mine up. I would lift every single day if I had my druthers. You are definitely making great progress and 4-5 even 6 lifting days a week works well for a lot of people. My favorite lifting style if full body 3 times a week but I can't really do that any more. I have just torn my joints and tendons up enough that I start getting overuse injuries frequently when training that way. Part of getting older.

Hell I am almost 40, and apparently even though that doesn't bother me it has quite an effect on my bodies ability to correct itself. I wish that my muscle recovery was the only limiting factor and not joints and tendons because then I could easily train 4-6 times a week. Not much in the world makes me as happy as a great workout. So I completely feel you on that and don't begrudge you the youth and vigor to keep on doing it.

[DreamWeaver]

Oh for sure and that is why I said we all have different points of balance. As I got more priorities I had to change some of mine up. I would lift every single day if I had my druthers. You are definitely making great progress and 4-5 even 6 lifting days a week works well for a lot of people. My favorite lifting style if full body 3 times a week but I can't really do that any more. I have just torn my joints and tendons up enough that I start getting overuse injuries frequently when training that way. Part of getting older.

Hell I am almost 40, and apparently even though that doesn't bother me it has quite an effect on my bodies ability to correct itself. I wish that my muscle recovery was the only limiting factor and not joints and tendons because then I could easily train 4-6 times a week. Not much in the world makes me as happy as a great workout. So I completely feel you on that and don't begrudge you the youth and vigor to keep on doing it.

yah I am exactly the same... less is more... for me..

[ScottyDoc]

yah I am exactly the same... less is more... for me..

FYI... My heavy leg day is the only day I push it with the heavy power-lifting style of lifting pyramiding my way up a couple of plates per set til I hit my Heavy sets and then get about 3-4 Heavy sets of 10reps. Every other day I work-out, I always keep the weights as heavy as I can get a min. of 10 reps, but always shooting for 15, when I get 15, I raise the weight, if I only get 10, I lower the weight, that is how I personally do it, not really looking to grow so much as raise my endurance strength and keep all my joints very healthy, and my muscles pumped and in an anabolic state vs. catabolic state. Also, most of my workouts are fast 45-60mins tops and if I do cardio, I try to do it at a totally different time of the day. The only other time I don't follow that is on light leg day, then I do the same thing as mentioned above, but with the rep range of 15-20 reps, same increase/decrease of weights accordingly.

[DreamWeaver]

FYI... My heavy leg day is the only day I push it with the heavy power-lifting style of lifting pyramiding my way up a couple of plates per set til I hit my Heavy sets and then get about 3-4 Heavy sets of 10reps. Every other day I work-out, I always keep the weights as heavy as I can get a min. of 10 reps, but always shooting for 15, when I get 15, I raise the weight, if I only get 10, I lower the weight, that is how I personally do it, not really looking to grow so much as raise my endurance strength and keep all my joints very healthy, and my muscles pumped and in an anabolic state vs. catabolic state. Also, most of my workouts are fast 45-60mins tops and if I do cardio, I try to do it at a totally different time of the day. The only other time I don't follow that is on light leg day, then I do the same thing as mentioned above, but with the rep range of 15-20 reps, same increase/decrease of weights accordingly.

Yah there was one 5 day routine I really liked where day 4 and 5 were quite short and it was very manageable..

[MrKleen73]

FYI... My heavy leg day is the only day I push it with the heavy power-lifting style of lifting pyramiding my way up a couple of plates per set til I hit my Heavy sets and then get about 3-4 Heavy sets of 10reps. Every other day I work-out, I always keep the weights as heavy as I can get a min. of 10 reps, but always shooting for 15, when I get 15, I raise the weight, if I only get 10, I lower the weight, that is how I personally do it, not really looking to grow so much as raise my endurance strength and keep all my joints very healthy, and my muscles pumped and in an anabolic state vs. catabolic state. Also, most of my workouts are fast 45-60mins tops and if I do cardio, I try to do it at a totally different time of the day. The only other time I don't follow that is on light leg day, then I do the same thing as mentioned above, but with the rep range of 15-20 reps, same increase/decrease of weights accordingly.

Well I hate to tell you man but it looks like you have a double progression training method there on most body parts that is designed and pretty much guaranteed to make you keep gaining muscle mass... Every workout you are hitting either more reps at same weight or increasing the weight with a low end threshhold to keep you from going too heavy is going to continue to make you both stronger and bigger. So you will just have to settle for continuing to improve in those facets of your physique while improving your endurance.

Yah there was one 5 day routine I really liked where day 4 and 5 were quite short and it was very manageable..

Yeah I have had a few designed very similarly. They definitely work but now my elbows will just not allow that type of frequency...

Of course I think most people would probably look at my workout and say that is a great workout for a beginner. If not that maybe they say no way he is going to build anything on that, or where are all of his ancillary movements. I made more progress on these simple plans than anything else. Even the ones i designed on my own for my full body workouts were all 1 exercise per body part, 2 work sets. It just works keeping it simple and concentrating on progression.

[DreamWeaver]

Well I hate to tell you man but it looks like you have a double progression training method there on most body parts that is designed and pretty much guaranteed to make you keep gaining muscle mass... Every workout you are hitting either more reps at same weight or increasing the weight with a low end threshhold to keep you from going too heavy is going to continue to make you both stronger and bigger. So you will just have to settle for continuing to improve in those facets of your physique while improving your endurance.


Yeah I have had a few designed very similarly. They definitely work but now my elbows will just not allow that type of frequency...

Of course I think most people would probably look at my workout and say that is a great workout for a beginner. If not that maybe they say no way he is going to build anything on that, or where are all of his ancillary movements. I made more progress on these simple plans than anything else. Even the ones i designed on my own for my full body workouts were all 1 exercise per body part, 2 work sets. It just works keeping it simple and concentrating on progression.

Hey i did that routine ... it was enough...although I did use double drops... but that jus adds a litle bit to it...

[MrKleen73]

Hey i did that routine ... it was enough...although I did use double drops... but that jus adds a litle bit to it...

I use double drops in there too. I started using drop sets to increase intensity when i began to workout solely without a lifting partner. So forced reps, or even having a spotter assist through a sticking point was not an option, but lowering the weight and continuing on was not a problem at all. However I attribute some of my elbow issues to over use of the drop sets for very long periods of time. Later as i continue to progress i am going to use my Saturday lift as a drop set day. That will give me 2 drop set workouts per body part each month with 2 weeks in between them and that should be plenty recovery. However we shall see if that is even needed.

[VolcomX311]

How is the Wyked treating you Kleen? I'm in the market for a good new pre-workout.

[DreamWeaver]

I use double drops in there too. I started using drop sets to increase intensity when i began to workout solely without a lifting partner. So forced reps, or even having a spotter assist through a sticking point was not an option, but lowering the weight and continuing on was not a problem at all. However I attribute some of my elbow issues to over use of the drop sets for very long periods of time. Later as i continue to progress i am going to use my Saturday lift as a drop set day. That will give me 2 drop set workouts per body part each month with 2 weeks in between them and that should be plenty recovery. However we shall see if that is even needed.

I like the double drops for the situation I will be in as I like muscle saturation, but I will choose more isolated exercises for the joints...

[MrKleen73]

How is the Wyked treating you Kleen? I'm in the market for a good new pre-workout.

I am really enjoying it, it is not an overly stimmed feeling, I knwo you have been using Meso for a while and this may not touch that regarding stims. However I think the DAA in it definitely adds to it a bit. Many of the others using it daily are getting some signs of increased testosterone.

I get awesome pumps from it, the taste is good, and I like the energy from it. It seems the more a twist the throttle the more acceleration I find is still available to me. There is not high rev feeling when just sitting there inactive as some stims do. That is pretty cool in my book!

[VolcomX311]

I am really enjoying it, it is not an overly stimmed feeling, I knwo you have been using Meso for a while and this may not touch that regarding stims. However I think the DAA in it definitely adds to it a bit. Many of the others using it daily are getting some signs of increased testosterone.

I get awesome pumps from it, the taste is good, and I like the energy from it. It seems the more a twist the throttle the more acceleration I find is still available to me. There is not high rev feeling when just sitting there inactive as some stims do. That is pretty cool in my book!

Very cool. I appreciate the breakdown. The inclusion of DAA is an interesting aspect.

[John Smeton]

I like the double drops for the situation I will be in as I like muscle saturation, but I will choose more isolated exercises for the joints...

That is what i find. more isolated exercises dont bother the joints

example heavy barbell curls or leaning forward preacher curls where tyou constantly lean forward to heavy hoing the weight to get it up like many guys do...or leg presses instead of any kind of squat if they hurt the shoulder

[MrKleen73]

I got up this morning and took my normal 1.5 scoops of WYKED, as well as my morning dose of the progestin. Had good energy by the time I got to the gym and was really ready to go once I did my 5 minute warm up on the elliptical.

Trying to get an idea of if there is a strength increase happening yet. So for a little comparison here is what I did last workout, compared to this one. Keep in mind I am also cutting / aggressive recomp and calories were pretty low yesterday. So any increases in weight on the lifts I struggled with last workout are are a good hint that the progestin may be working to increase strength. I am definitely expecting to hit a wall soon regarding strength gains. So if that does not happen during this run then we can definitely attribute that to the Progestin.

Bench -
Last workout 115, 155, 175, 175x9.5. which was one of the only ones I failed to get my target reps on second work set.
This workout 115,155, 175, 175x11 so an extra rep and a half in 4-5 days time, not bad at all. I know I would have been able to get the 175x10 on my own, maybe even 175x10.5 reps but I am pretty sure I would not have made it to 11 reps without the aid of the progestin. I am also pretty sure that the rest periods are inherently longer on Saturday workouts since we are not rushed.

Chin Grip Pull Downs -
Last Workout - 90, 120, 135, 140 - 140 was pretty hard to complete last week. Granted I didn’t have any rosin that day but it was still pretty hard.
This Workout - 90, 120, 140, 145 - this was still hard but honestly not as hard as the 140 was. I am not sure if this was a result of a strength increase or better grip. I am going to assume a little bit of both.

Military Press -
Last Workout - 65, 105, 105x10
This Workout - 65, 105, 105x8 lost two reps here but this doesn’t surprise me with the extra work done on the first two exercises which will be used more as a gauge of strength as this one would be a gauge of endurance. I honestly feel I could have powered another couple reps out but was not going to try and risk my shoulders stability. In order to make increases here I am going to have to make the first work set my heavy attempt and maybe a back down set for the second. My shoulders are just toast by the time I am getting to this point already.

EZ Bar Curl 85 last week and 85x13 this week, I couldn’t go up in weight so I added another rep here.

Dips - Last Week BW+40, this week BW+45 - no issues at all with this. Still not approaching my max for the rep range yet.

L-Fly Internal and External rotation 12.5 lbs both workouts, will basically stay here for a couple more weeks then move up to 15.