Get RIPPED!!

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    Get RIPPED!!


    Starting a cycle of tren 19 nor by element nutrition, with winabol-generation x labs, and epistane.

    Week 1-4
    -120 mg Tren(1-6)
    -100 mg Winabol
    Week 2-6
    -epistane 30mg

    Other supps:
    -acai berry
    -animal pak
    -cycle support
    -zma night growth-houseofmuscle
    -fish oil
    -vitamen e
    -amino 2222
    whey/casein protien-optimum

    Let me know what you think

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    bump
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    Not familiar with winabol but am currently pulsing SPAWN (tren/epi) with low dose transdermal Formestane ED. Luvin it so far. I am sure you'll enjoy yours too!
    •   
       

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    Looks good. U got a PCT program lined up?
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    120mg of Tren for 6 weeks is to much, should start at lower dose and work your way up and see how you react before bumping up.
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    Are u preloading cycle support. Your blood pressure iis likely to shoot up starting at that dosage. Also will u be doing cardio on this cut? Cardio with a blood pressure spike is almost impossible, miserable to say the least. Hope u have a good run and get ripped to shreddz
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    Ive already started with the 120 mgs so far, but if i should i will bump down. Not to much to show yet, puts me in a good mood though. Get nice pumps in the gym. Other than that nada. As of right now my pct is:
    -Retain-xtreme anabolic
    -finadex-6(6 oxo clone)
    -Liquid clen
    and possibly clomid
  8. New Member
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    mdotmdot i did not pre load but i definitly noticed my heart rate was higher than usual at a low pace. And i only do 20 min
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    try adding garlic pills in there too. Any drug store should have them in their vitamin section should help a lot. Wouldn't hurt to dose the fish oil high either. Intertesting read below might help sourced from:
    altmedicine.about.com/cs/herbsvitaminsek/a/Hypertension.htm

    Natural Remedies for High Blood Pressure
    Lifestyle changes and natural remedies may help to control high blood pressure, but your doctor may also recommend medication to lower high blood pressure. It is important to work with your doctor, because untreated high blood pressure may damage organs in the body and increase the risk of heart attack, stroke, brain hemorrhage, kidney disease, and vision loss. See a drawing of a hypertensive heart.

    Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10)
    There is some evidence that the supplement CoQ10 may help to reduce high blood pressure.


    A 12 week double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of 83 people with systolic hypertension examined the effect of CoQ10 supplements (60 mg twice daily). After the 12 weeks, there was a mean reduction in systolic blood pressure of 17.8 mm Hg in the Coq10-treated group.

    Another study conducted at the University of Western Australia looked at the effect of CoQ10 on blood pressure and glycemic control in 74 people with type 2 diabetes. Participants were randomly assigned to receive either 100mg CoQ10 twice daily, 200mg of the drug fenfibrate, both, or neither for 12 weeks.

    CoQ10 significantly reduced systolic and diastolic blood pressure(mean reduction 6.1 mm Hg and 2.9 mm Hg respectively). There was also a reduction in HbA1C, a marker for long-term glycemic control.
    To learn more about CoQ10, read the Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) fact sheet.

    Garlic
    In a meta-analysis of seven randomized controlled trials of garlic supplements, three trials showed a significant reduction in systolic blood pressure and four in diastolic blood pressure. Researchers concluded that garlic powder supplement may be of clinical use in patients with mild high blood pressure
    .

    Garlic supplements should only be used under the supervision of a qualified health practitioner. Garlic can thin the blood (reduce the ability of blood to clot) similar to aspirin. Garlic may interact with many drugs and supplements such as the prescription "blood-thinners" drugs such as Coumadin (warfarin) or Trental (pentoxifylline), aspirin, vitamin E, gingko. It is usually recommended that people taking garlic stop in the weeks before and after any type of surgery.

    To learn more about garlic, go to the articles about garlic.

    Hawthorn
    The herb hawthorn is often used by traditional herbal practitioners for high blood pressure.


    In a randomized controlled trial conducted by researchers in Reading, UK, 79 patients with type 2 diabetes were randomized to receive either 1200 mg of hawthorn extract a day or placebo for 16 weeks. Medication for high blood pressure was used by 71% of the patients.

    At the end of the 16 weeks, patients taking the hawthorn supplement had a significant reduction in mean diastolic blood pressure (2.6 mm Hg). No herb-drug interactions were reported.

    Fish oil
    Preliminary studies suggest that fish oil may have a modest effect on high blood pressure. Although fish oil supplements often contain both DHA (docohexaenoic acid) and EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid), there is some evidence that DHA is the ingredient that lowers high blood pressure. Learn more about fish oil.


    Folic acid
    Folate is a B vitamin necessary for formation of red blood cells. It may help to lower high blood pressure in some people, possibly by reducing elevated homocysteine levels.


    One small study of 24 cigarette smokers found that four weeks of folic acid supplementation significantly lowered blood pressure
  10. New Member
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    Ya im taking in alot of hawthorne, will bump up the fish oil and definitly look into the garlic. thx.
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    My goal is to get as lean and shreded as possible, cause im basically trying to transform my body, because im naturally bulky, so im trying to get a nice physique goin. Is my cycle goin to accomplish that?
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    Tricky question, what's ur bf %. Some one with a 15% or higher would need to diet down first. If you are lower than that then you can cut/recomp in 6 weeks with a lot of hard work.
    Diff strokes for diff fokes (depending on size genetices ect), some guys go as low as 1400 cal/day on a cycle like this others 3,500 to get shredded. Most importantly ur nutrition should match ur goals. Food is more anabolic than these compounds. However you will get the most out of the food you eat while on these compounds via protein synthesis ect.... Next there are a couple of ways to take advantage of this anabolic boost

    ~ work out twice a day, will allow u to burn extra calories.
    ~If emphasise is strickly to get ripped as the title of this thread then an exagerated amount of cardio.
    ~If emphasise preserving/adding more muscle less cardio and high volume weight workouts. again every one is diff, while on i like 5 excersices per dody part --5 sets of 10 reps, taxing on the central nervous system but its only 6 weeks lol. You can do cardio here but i wouldn't recomend HIIT while on high volume keep it moderat to low intensity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLuch View Post
    My goal is to get as lean and shreded as possible, cause im basically trying to transform my body, because im naturally bulky, so im trying to get a nice physique goin. Is my cycle goin to accomplish that?
    What do u mean natural bulky? I know you are 5'7 but 168 is pretty light. What is your body fat? Are you lean or are you fat. I am on 2nd week of SPAWN pulse plus I am doing 30-45 minutes of cardio (running on the treadmill at varied inclines, burning 5-600 calories per session) and yet I am still gaining size. Not sure about the scale....don't follow that. I use the mirror. Everyone at the gym & the office has noticed the increase in size in just 1-2 weeks. So yes you will get lean, providing you eat clean, lift heavy, do lots of cardio, get lots of sleep. Roids are the magic pill only if you do the above. Otherwise you are screwing with your body and possibly your health, wasting time & money and just plain fooling yourself. Proper PCT is just as important as the ON cycle or you can kiss all the gains and your nuts goodby.

    All the best Lucky
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    I dont know exactly but its below 15, probably around 12. Bulky i mean i can get big if i wanted to. But heres my diet.
    My diet is awesome imo.
    Breakfeast-
    1c post bluberry morning
    1whole/3eggwhites
    1 coop optimum whey
    orange


    -meal 2
    6 oz can tuna
    1/2 cup brown rice
    2 oz celery
    apple


    -meal 3 pre workout
    6 oz lean chicken
    granola bar
    1/2cup green beans
    apple
    2 tbs peanut butter, 1 slice whole wheat


    -post workout
    2 scoops whey
    powerade


    -meal 4
    6 oz chicken
    green beans
    carrot


    -meal 5
    6 oz tuna
    salad(no fat dressing)

    -last meal
    1 scoop casein

    protien-274
    carbs-156
    fat-45.5
    calories-2131.5
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    I workout with high intesnsity, and low intensity cardio. And i can push my cycle to 8 if thats recommended.
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    oh this cycle is going to dry ur joints. Recommend getting a joint supp
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    aight cool. So you think im in good shape to get wat im lookin for?
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    Sorry its Friday,with the fam.
    Still a few unanswered questions. Whats ur fish oils dosage, as this helps with fat loss. Diet looks good enough to keep performance up and burn fat.
    One or two days per week i would spike my cals a bit to keep the thyroid happy and metabolisim from crashing. the last two weeks of ur cycle run low dose taraxotone. Low dose because u dont wont ur joints to get too dry. Also during these two weeks cut ur carbs by 50% during this time ur performance will drop little but you should be peaking with the loss of excess water.=ripped

    The dosage of tren will shut u down very hard. You will have a very limp pole (no homo).
    A strong pct is needed I know u mentioned clomid which is good, cuz 6 0x0 wont help. Check out the link by DR D
    anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/37790-running-serm-inverse.html

    So far u look good. If you know ur body well you will be able tweek things on cycle such as diet and compound dosage and starting pct early if needed.
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    My fish oil is 2,000mg right now.
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    i would up it to 6grms/day, for the many health benifits and recomp effect
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    Alright will do. When should it all start to kick in?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLuch View Post
    Alright will do. When should it all start to kick in?
    If you are feeling the pumps it already has kicked in. You should also be notcing an increase in size & strength soon plus vascularity, hunger & irritabilty to follow. I am only on week 2 of a SPAWn pulse at 90 mgs EOD & I am all of the above already AND I am doing 30 minutes running treadmill (500 cals) pre workout as my priority is to get ripped also.
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    Well its been 6 days now. I can definitly tell its on because i get some awesome rage. I can see a tiny bit of my waist has gone down. Hopefully by next week, ill have put on a few pounds and veins bulging everywhere.
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    Yeah strenght will be of the charts weeks 3&4 throughout
    vascularity is gona be crazy lol
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    Awesome. Ill keep updating after everyweek.
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    I have begun my epistane, yes! Yesterday doing shoulders i moved up about 10 lbs for each excercise, but still waiting for it to explode, but i know its not far. Also had to change my pct do to lack of income. But I still got the clomid, 6 oxo. So i added Tribulus Terrestris, 625mg/100 Capsules ,Chromium Picolinate, 200mcg/100 Capsules, and i still got my clen and also got some ketofin to go with it.
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    Strength will depend on a lot of factors such as: type of compound, rest, type of routine,hydration,macro nutrients,minerals ect.
    I usually do a high volume routine while on program.
    To get the most out of ur run, i would focus heavily on form and time under tension.

    Strick form on every set & every rep
    Time under tension is ur tempo of each rep. Such as benching would be 2 seconds up hold at the top one sec then to seconds down for one rep.
    Bro im not trying to tell u how to work out cuz there are many programs out there.
    This approach really breaks down the targeted muscle efficiently, allowing for greater amiono acid and carbohydrate uptake by the muscle cells. The compounds ur taking will enhace this recovery prosess, resulting in fuller, denser muscles with a ridiculously cut look(if ur already at 12% or lower body fat levels).
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    Ya, i definitly appreciate your advise. I will make sure to do so. Got my clen today so Im goin to start that early. I also bought keto so ill use that with the clen later in my cycle. Up to 171 with definite loss of fat. Look forward to more results.
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    Got any taurine and potassium. you'll need it for cramps that clen may cause
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    i got taurine
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    What should my rep range be. Ive been doin 8-12.
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    yes for better muscle break down, which will induce above normal hytrophy while on.
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    I got a bit of gyno returning from a previous cycle. Ive ordered some letro. What should i dose it at, then leading into my pct what should i dose my nolva,Tribulus Terrestris, and 6 oxo?
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    ive been reeding that the nolva will cause more receptors to pop up causing and even greater production of estrogen, but i bet its because they dosed it wrong and didnt do it right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLuch View Post
    ive been reeding that the nolva will cause more receptors to pop up causing and even greater production of estrogen, but i bet its because they dosed it wrong and didnt do it right.
    This was taken from another board, credit to basskiller

    PCT and Cycle Recomendations: Estrogen, Progesterone and Cortisol control
    I am starting this thread after tons of reading, and taking advice from the more prominent members from various boards. I just wanted to summarize a bunch of useful threads here, bringing it together in one post and simplifying the popular substances used to control estrogen/progesterone/cortisol and restore natural test levels. Ill go over the compounds briefly, and summarize at the end of the post. I'd like to thank Hooker for his input on this thread. A few defenitions before you start :

    SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator): These block certain estrogen receptors, depending on the drug, and dont actually lower estrogen in the blood. Estrogen is left to circulate with nowhere to go. Because of this, SERMS have a posotive effect on cholesterol levels. They have a negative effect on IGF-1, so if bulking, only take them if totally necessary. They are good at blocking gyno, and are commonly used while cycling and in PCT.

    AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors): There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels.

    RI's (Reductase Inhibitors): These drugs stop the conversion of testosterone into DHT wherever 5-alpha reductase enzymes are present. RI's work by blocking the action of the 5-alpha. There are 2 5a's. Type I 5a and Type II 5a. Different RI's block one or both of these 5a's.

    Estrogen: The first hormone we need to keep an eye on. Many AAS convert to estrogen via the aromatization process. Some AAS are worse than others. Also, estrogen spikes after a cycle. High levels of estrogen leads to gyno, water retention, fat storage etc. Estrogen plays a key role in progesterone related gyno. We either block its receptors with SERMS or reduce its production with AIs. We watch estrogen levels during a cycle and in PCT. Lowering estrogen too much will mess up your blood lipids. Letting it get out of control will cause sides like gyno, water retention etc. Estrogen plays a role in IGF-1 levels, may lower IGF-1 when blocked. Estrogen is also beneficial hormone when bulking, promoting higher androgen receptor concentrations. It also is beneficial in another way - its supposed to act as an anti-inflammatory - this means blocking or reducing it too much during a heavy bulking cycle can result in injury to joints. Obviously different estrogen levels are desired for different goals, and it is not always good to block its action or its production.

    Progesterone: Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its receptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca, may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.

    Cortisol: The third hormone, the stress hormone. When elevated to long, it will store fat. Eat muscle. Cause lethargy. Moodiness. You may crave carbs by the boat load. Cortisol spikes after a cycle because AAS blocks it while on cycle, upping cortisol production and receptor sites. IMO not enough attention is payed to this. It has special functions in the body that are absolutely necessary, like its anti-inflamitory ability. However, when elevated for long periods, it turns into a muscle eating beast. The most important time to watch cortisol is after a cycle, when it spikes.

    Now that you brushed up on some defentions, here are some useful compounds :


    SERMS (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulation)

    Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate): Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. It also helps your blood fat levels. It does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. Nolva should be used during HCG therapy, at 20 mg a day, for the reason i just mentioned. Can be used during cycle if you see signs of gyno. Its mainly used to block the estrogen spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.Faslodex (Fulvestrant): Approved for use in 2002 for breast cancer research, this drug is unlike most we have seen. It is classified as an estrogen receptor downregulator. It prevents estrogen from exerting its influence on the estrogen receptor. Similar to Nolvadex, but is not selective. It hits all estrogen receptors. It also does this to progesterone receptors to a lesser degree. It is injectable, at 250mg a month. No information on how it affects blood lipids. It is also very expensive.

    Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate): This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in PCT, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all AAS esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your PCT. Commonly taken at about 100mg a day.

    Fareston (Toremifene Citrate): This is a second generation SERM. Approved for use in 1997. Chemically very similar to Nolva and Clomid, it is less powerful mg for mg. Fareston may have a stronger posotive effect on your cholesterol levels. For those who find this an important issue, this is a drug of choice. Used every day at around 60mg.

    Evista (raloxifene): A newer SERM, Evista is shown to be a blocker in breast tissue, but acts as a receptor agonist in bone tissue (unlike Nolvadex). This action promotes bone density. Taken at about 60mg a day. Evista may prove to be very beneficial, as it also helps cholesterol levels (like Nolvadex). Evista is supposed to have a more powerful gyno blocking effect than Nolvadex.

    Cyclofenil: Much like Nolvadex, this is also a SERM. Used at about 600mg a day, it is weaker mg for mg. A good alternative if Nolva is not available, which is usually not the case.


    AI (Aromatase Inhibitors)

    Teslac (Testolactone): This is a first generation steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Like a suicide, it permanently attaches to the aromatase enzyme. Taked at a maximum of 250mg a day. It is not as strong as the newer AI's, but some people still like to use it. It can lower estrogen about 50%. Streroidal in structure, it has no anabolic effect.

    Aromasin (Exemestane): This drug is classified as a Type I Suicide AI. It binds to the aromatase enzyme and kills it. It is effective at lowering estrogen up to 85%. Once again, you have to watch out for your cholesterol levels. Used mainly for cutting when low estrogen levels are desired. Aromasin is shown to help bone density. Clinical doses are about 25mg a day, but it has been shown that as little as 2.5mg a day can be as effective.

    Lentaron (Formestane): A Type I Suicide AI. Lentaron is not classified as a drug, and can be sold over the counter as a suppliment. Not as strong as the third generation AIs (arimidex, femera). Can lower estrogen by about 60%. Used as an injectable, it is dosed at about 250mg every 2 weeks. Due to poor bioavailability, daily doses of oral Lentaron are about 250mg.

    Arimidex (Anastrozole): This is a widely used type II AI. It competes with estrogen for the aromatase enzyme. This effectively lowers estrogen up to 80% in the blood. Approved for use in 1995 to fight breast cancer. At doses up to 1mg a day, it has been shown to be very effective at controlling estrogen while on cycle or in PCT. It is usefull for curbing the effects that come with aromatizing AAS's while in cycle, and can be used in PCT. Nolvadex is shown to decrease the effectiveness of Arimidex when used together. In this case a suicide inhibitor may be more well suited, like in PCT. It is also called L-dex, in its liquid form.

    Femera (Letrozole): Letro is a competative Type II AI also. Also farely new compared to other compounds, it is shown to be effective at lowering estrogen by blocking the aromatase enzyme. Doses up to 2.5mg a day are used, but usually as low as .5mg a day can be just as effective. Clinical studies show Femera to lower estrogen by 75-78%. Once again, watch out for you blood lipids (cholesterol) to get out of whack. There may a noted rebound effect of estrogen levels that goes along with Letro use.


    Cortisol Control

    Cytadren (aminoglutethimide): This drug has the ability to reduce cortisol at higher doses (1000mg a day), and act as an AI at lower doses (250mg a day). The cortisol effect is shortlived if taken for a number of consecutive days. Can lower estrogen a lot, anbout 90%. The higher dose has a long list of sides. More effective as an AI.

    Mirtazapine: This is used to lower cortisol. Even though it may be effective in cortisol control, Johan has pointed out that it may cause some phycological side effects, like making you feel like a zombie.

    Cytodyne (Phosphatidylserine): This is also used to lower cortisol, but is only effective in lowering about 30%. There are other ingredients in Cytodyne than Phosphatidylserine. Phosphatidylserine is the only real proven ingredient to lower cortisol, or so ive gathered so far. Effective at 800mg a day of PS as an ingredient.

    Vitamin C: At doses of about 1.5 grams a day, can have a lowering effect on elevated cortisol, not to mention its other healthy effects.


    LH Repalacement Therapy - Testosterone Stimulating Drugs

    HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin): HCG is a replacement for your natural LH (luteinizing hormone). LH is what your body produces to tell your testicles to produce natural testosterone. LH levels drop when using AAS (HPTA suppression). Using HCG while on cycle prevents testicular shrinkage, speeding PCT when the time comes. Using Nolva while using HCG helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing your testicles to natural LH. In my opinion, any decent cycle/PCT should include HCG. It has been suggested to me that HCG can be used throughout a cycle at 500iu E4D, or in the last couple weeks of your cycle at a higher dose, like 1000iu EOD. This is done before PCT starts with Clomid, as it is no good to mix the two. Always include Nolva with your HCG, they work together well. My suggested doses are not concrete, and you should be careful not to overdose and desenstize your testicles to LH. HCG has an active life of about 3 days. Vitamin E is a booster, read the next one :

    Vitamin E: As Hooker pointed out to me, vitamin E increases the response to HCG. This may be useful in making the low doses of HCG we use more effective at growing back shrunken testicles. Doses can be generally 1000iu a day while using HCG.


    Progesterone Control

    Lilopristone, Onapristone: These are progesterone blockers also, said to be safer and possibly more effective than RU-486 when it comes to progesterone blocking. They were developed after RU-486 in an attempt to make more effective, less harsh drugs to block progesterone.

    Dostinex (Cabergoline), Bromo (Bromocriptine), B-6: These are used for Deca/Tren gyno sides. This type of gyno is related to progesterone and its receptors. Tren/Deca may act on the progesterone receptor, as they are progestins, and may increase prolactin in the blood (causing lactating). These drugs stop production of prolactin at the pituitary gland. Controlling estrogen levels with an AI also helps here, as progestins themsleves haven't been proven to cause gyno.

    RU-486 (Mifepristone - abortion pill): This drug has the ability to block estrogen, progesterone AND cortisol. It may or may not be very well tolerated, but I would like to find out more about it, as it is used in the bodybuilding world. In PCT it is used to block cortisol and progesterone. A powerful drug that may turn out to be a good choice, but i need more evidence and feedback from experience useing RU-486.

    RI's (5a Reductase Inhibitors)

    Proscar (Finasteride): This is primarily a Type II 5-alpha blocker. This means that when you are taking a high dose of testosterone, the resulting conversion of test to DHT in certain parts of the body become to high for ones own comfort, mainly hairloss and prostate enlargement. This is where the type II 5a enzymes are mainly found. This will not work against AAS that are already highly androgenic by design, without conversion. AAS like Tren will still exhibit high androgenic properties. Used at doses up to 5mg a day.

    Avodart (Dutasteride): Like Proscar but newer and more effective at blocking the effects of DHT in not only the scalp and prostate (which are Proscar's main strengths) but also in the skin, effectively reducing acne. This is because Avodart will block both Type I and Type II 5-alpha enzymes, covering more of the problem areas due to DHT. Available in .5mg softgels, this is an effective dose. Approved for use in 2002.

    Fat Burning, Anti-Catabolic

    Clen (Clenbuterol): Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator. Everyone knows clen is used to burn fat. Why am I listing it here in a PCT thread? Well, for its anti-catabolic properties. Clen may lower the effect of AAS while on cycle, so I personally dont use it while cycling. It does, however, have an effect on cortisol levels. While on cycle, cortisol is not to much of a problem if you eat right. AAS use increases cortisol production, and increases receptor sites. This means that when you finish a cycle, cortisol spikes along with estrogen. This is a part of the "crash" that is often overlooked. People have reported that blocking cortisol in PCT speeds along fat loss. Clen is supposed to have a blocking effect on cortisol. So, along side of its ability to burn fat, it is anti catabolic in it ability to block cortisol until desired hormone levels are achieved in PCT. For me, it makes sense to use clen in PCT until desired hormone levels are achieved, as it also burns away fat in the process.



    SUMMARY
    All AAS can supress the HPTA, even in small doses, thus lowering natural LH. Factors that affect ones ability to recover quickly are genetics, cycle length or steroid type. Some AAS will shut you down hard and fast, some not so bad. Some lucky people can rebound quickly without medications, but many need it to avoid a crash and losing muscle/gaining fat. It is in our best interest to use the appropriate medications in the CORRECT doses to keep sides down (like bloat), grow quickly and keep quality mass when we are done our cycles. Most of us can get away with using 2 or 3 compounds to keep sides to a minimum, rebound quickly, and keep gains we worked hard for. Higher levels of AAS (and therefore higher estrogen/progestins) may require more intense hormone control and heavier PCT. Remember, we are aiming to level out estrogen, progesterone, cortisol and testosterone. In PCT, we are trying to achieve equilibrium of the HPTA, getting FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone) back to normal. Keeping our hard earned gains is obviously our first priority. I hope this post helps out, as i wrote it for beginners who are having a hard time searching through the massive amount of info... this thread will be updated as often as i learn something new... enjoy!

    Hope this helps Luch
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLuch View Post
    ive been reeding that the nolva will cause more receptors to pop up causing and even greater production of estrogen, but i bet its because they dosed it wrong and didnt do it right.
    This was taken from another board, credit to basskiller

    PCT and Cycle Recomendations: Estrogen, Progesterone and Cortisol control
    I am starting this thread after tons of reading, and taking advice from the more prominent members from various boards. I just wanted to summarize a bunch of useful threads here, bringing it together in one post and simplifying the popular substances used to control estrogen/progesterone/cortisol and restore natural test levels. Ill go over the compounds briefly, and summarize at the end of the post. I'd like to thank Hooker for his input on this thread. A few defenitions before you start :

    SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator): These block certain estrogen receptors, depending on the drug, and dont actually lower estrogen in the blood. Estrogen is left to circulate with nowhere to go. Because of this, SERMS have a posotive effect on cholesterol levels. They have a negative effect on IGF-1, so if bulking, only take them if totally necessary. They are good at blocking gyno, and are commonly used while cycling and in PCT.

    AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors): There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels.

    RI's (Reductase Inhibitors): These drugs stop the conversion of testosterone into DHT wherever 5-alpha reductase enzymes are present. RI's work by blocking the action of the 5-alpha. There are 2 5a's. Type I 5a and Type II 5a. Different RI's block one or both of these 5a's.

    Estrogen: The first hormone we need to keep an eye on. Many AAS convert to estrogen via the aromatization process. Some AAS are worse than others. Also, estrogen spikes after a cycle. High levels of estrogen leads to gyno, water retention, fat storage etc. Estrogen plays a key role in progesterone related gyno. We either block its receptors with SERMS or reduce its production with AIs. We watch estrogen levels during a cycle and in PCT. Lowering estrogen too much will mess up your blood lipids. Letting it get out of control will cause sides like gyno, water retention etc. Estrogen plays a role in IGF-1 levels, may lower IGF-1 when blocked. Estrogen is also beneficial hormone when bulking, promoting higher androgen receptor concentrations. It also is beneficial in another way - its supposed to act as an anti-inflammatory - this means blocking or reducing it too much during a heavy bulking cycle can result in injury to joints. Obviously different estrogen levels are desired for different goals, and it is not always good to block its action or its production.

    Progesterone: Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its receptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca, may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.

    Cortisol: The third hormone, the stress hormone. When elevated to long, it will store fat. Eat muscle. Cause lethargy. Moodiness. You may crave carbs by the boat load. Cortisol spikes after a cycle because AAS blocks it while on cycle, upping cortisol production and receptor sites. IMO not enough attention is payed to this. It has special functions in the body that are absolutely necessary, like its anti-inflamitory ability. However, when elevated for long periods, it turns into a muscle eating beast. The most important time to watch cortisol is after a cycle, when it spikes.

    Now that you brushed up on some defentions, here are some useful compounds :


    SERMS (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulation)

    Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate): Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. It also helps your blood fat levels. It does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. Nolva should be used during HCG therapy, at 20 mg a day, for the reason i just mentioned. Can be used during cycle if you see signs of gyno. Its mainly used to block the estrogen spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.Faslodex (Fulvestrant): Approved for use in 2002 for breast cancer research, this drug is unlike most we have seen. It is classified as an estrogen receptor downregulator. It prevents estrogen from exerting its influence on the estrogen receptor. Similar to Nolvadex, but is not selective. It hits all estrogen receptors. It also does this to progesterone receptors to a lesser degree. It is injectable, at 250mg a month. No information on how it affects blood lipids. It is also very expensive.

    Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate): This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in PCT, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all AAS esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your PCT. Commonly taken at about 100mg a day.

    Fareston (Toremifene Citrate): This is a second generation SERM. Approved for use in 1997. Chemically very similar to Nolva and Clomid, it is less powerful mg for mg. Fareston may have a stronger posotive effect on your cholesterol levels. For those who find this an important issue, this is a drug of choice. Used every day at around 60mg.

    Evista (raloxifene): A newer SERM, Evista is shown to be a blocker in breast tissue, but acts as a receptor agonist in bone tissue (unlike Nolvadex). This action promotes bone density. Taken at about 60mg a day. Evista may prove to be very beneficial, as it also helps cholesterol levels (like Nolvadex). Evista is supposed to have a more powerful gyno blocking effect than Nolvadex.

    Cyclofenil: Much like Nolvadex, this is also a SERM. Used at about 600mg a day, it is weaker mg for mg. A good alternative if Nolva is not available, which is usually not the case.


    AI (Aromatase Inhibitors)

    Teslac (Testolactone): This is a first generation steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Like a suicide, it permanently attaches to the aromatase enzyme. Taked at a maximum of 250mg a day. It is not as strong as the newer AI's, but some people still like to use it. It can lower estrogen about 50%. Streroidal in structure, it has no anabolic effect.

    Aromasin (Exemestane): This drug is classified as a Type I Suicide AI. It binds to the aromatase enzyme and kills it. It is effective at lowering estrogen up to 85%. Once again, you have to watch out for your cholesterol levels. Used mainly for cutting when low estrogen levels are desired. Aromasin is shown to help bone density. Clinical doses are about 25mg a day, but it has been shown that as little as 2.5mg a day can be as effective.

    Lentaron (Formestane): A Type I Suicide AI. Lentaron is not classified as a drug, and can be sold over the counter as a suppliment. Not as strong as the third generation AIs (arimidex, femera). Can lower estrogen by about 60%. Used as an injectable, it is dosed at about 250mg every 2 weeks. Due to poor bioavailability, daily doses of oral Lentaron are about 250mg.

    Arimidex (Anastrozole): This is a widely used type II AI. It competes with estrogen for the aromatase enzyme. This effectively lowers estrogen up to 80% in the blood. Approved for use in 1995 to fight breast cancer. At doses up to 1mg a day, it has been shown to be very effective at controlling estrogen while on cycle or in PCT. It is usefull for curbing the effects that come with aromatizing AAS's while in cycle, and can be used in PCT. Nolvadex is shown to decrease the effectiveness of Arimidex when used together. In this case a suicide inhibitor may be more well suited, like in PCT. It is also called L-dex, in its liquid form.

    Femera (Letrozole): Letro is a competative Type II AI also. Also farely new compared to other compounds, it is shown to be effective at lowering estrogen by blocking the aromatase enzyme. Doses up to 2.5mg a day are used, but usually as low as .5mg a day can be just as effective. Clinical studies show Femera to lower estrogen by 75-78%. Once again, watch out for you blood lipids (cholesterol) to get out of whack. There may a noted rebound effect of estrogen levels that goes along with Letro use.


    Cortisol Control

    Cytadren (aminoglutethimide): This drug has the ability to reduce cortisol at higher doses (1000mg a day), and act as an AI at lower doses (250mg a day). The cortisol effect is shortlived if taken for a number of consecutive days. Can lower estrogen a lot, anbout 90%. The higher dose has a long list of sides. More effective as an AI.

    Mirtazapine: This is used to lower cortisol. Even though it may be effective in cortisol control, Johan has pointed out that it may cause some phycological side effects, like making you feel like a zombie.

    Cytodyne (Phosphatidylserine): This is also used to lower cortisol, but is only effective in lowering about 30%. There are other ingredients in Cytodyne than Phosphatidylserine. Phosphatidylserine is the only real proven ingredient to lower cortisol, or so ive gathered so far. Effective at 800mg a day of PS as an ingredient.

    Vitamin C: At doses of about 1.5 grams a day, can have a lowering effect on elevated cortisol, not to mention its other healthy effects.


    LH Repalacement Therapy - Testosterone Stimulating Drugs

    HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin): HCG is a replacement for your natural LH (luteinizing hormone). LH is what your body produces to tell your testicles to produce natural testosterone. LH levels drop when using AAS (HPTA suppression). Using HCG while on cycle prevents testicular shrinkage, speeding PCT when the time comes. Using Nolva while using HCG helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing your testicles to natural LH. In my opinion, any decent cycle/PCT should include HCG. It has been suggested to me that HCG can be used throughout a cycle at 500iu E4D, or in the last couple weeks of your cycle at a higher dose, like 1000iu EOD. This is done before PCT starts with Clomid, as it is no good to mix the two. Always include Nolva with your HCG, they work together well. My suggested doses are not concrete, and you should be careful not to overdose and desenstize your testicles to LH. HCG has an active life of about 3 days. Vitamin E is a booster, read the next one :

    Vitamin E: As Hooker pointed out to me, vitamin E increases the response to HCG. This may be useful in making the low doses of HCG we use more effective at growing back shrunken testicles. Doses can be generally 1000iu a day while using HCG.


    Progesterone Control

    Lilopristone, Onapristone: These are progesterone blockers also, said to be safer and possibly more effective than RU-486 when it comes to progesterone blocking. They were developed after RU-486 in an attempt to make more effective, less harsh drugs to block progesterone.

    Dostinex (Cabergoline), Bromo (Bromocriptine), B-6: These are used for Deca/Tren gyno sides. This type of gyno is related to progesterone and its receptors. Tren/Deca may act on the progesterone receptor, as they are progestins, and may increase prolactin in the blood (causing lactating). These drugs stop production of prolactin at the pituitary gland. Controlling estrogen levels with an AI also helps here, as progestins themsleves haven't been proven to cause gyno.

    RU-486 (Mifepristone - abortion pill): This drug has the ability to block estrogen, progesterone AND cortisol. It may or may not be very well tolerated, but I would like to find out more about it, as it is used in the bodybuilding world. In PCT it is used to block cortisol and progesterone. A powerful drug that may turn out to be a good choice, but i need more evidence and feedback from experience useing RU-486.

    RI's (5a Reductase Inhibitors)

    Proscar (Finasteride): This is primarily a Type II 5-alpha blocker. This means that when you are taking a high dose of testosterone, the resulting conversion of test to DHT in certain parts of the body become to high for ones own comfort, mainly hairloss and prostate enlargement. This is where the type II 5a enzymes are mainly found. This will not work against AAS that are already highly androgenic by design, without conversion. AAS like Tren will still exhibit high androgenic properties. Used at doses up to 5mg a day.

    Avodart (Dutasteride): Like Proscar but newer and more effective at blocking the effects of DHT in not only the scalp and prostate (which are Proscar's main strengths) but also in the skin, effectively reducing acne. This is because Avodart will block both Type I and Type II 5-alpha enzymes, covering more of the problem areas due to DHT. Available in .5mg softgels, this is an effective dose. Approved for use in 2002.

    Fat Burning, Anti-Catabolic

    Clen (Clenbuterol): Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator. Everyone knows clen is used to burn fat. Why am I listing it here in a PCT thread? Well, for its anti-catabolic properties. Clen may lower the effect of AAS while on cycle, so I personally dont use it while cycling. It does, however, have an effect on cortisol levels. While on cycle, cortisol is not to much of a problem if you eat right. AAS use increases cortisol production, and increases receptor sites. This means that when you finish a cycle, cortisol spikes along with estrogen. This is a part of the "crash" that is often overlooked. People have reported that blocking cortisol in PCT speeds along fat loss. Clen is supposed to have a blocking effect on cortisol. So, along side of its ability to burn fat, it is anti catabolic in it ability to block cortisol until desired hormone levels are achieved in PCT. For me, it makes sense to use clen in PCT until desired hormone levels are achieved, as it also burns away fat in the process.



    SUMMARY
    All AAS can supress the HPTA, even in small doses, thus lowering natural LH. Factors that affect ones ability to recover quickly are genetics, cycle length or steroid type. Some AAS will shut you down hard and fast, some not so bad. Some lucky people can rebound quickly without medications, but many need it to avoid a crash and losing muscle/gaining fat. It is in our best interest to use the appropriate medications in the CORRECT doses to keep sides down (like bloat), grow quickly and keep quality mass when we are done our cycles. Most of us can get away with using 2 or 3 compounds to keep sides to a minimum, rebound quickly, and keep gains we worked hard for. Higher levels of AAS (and therefore higher estrogen/progestins) may require more intense hormone control and heavier PCT. Remember, we are aiming to level out estrogen, progesterone, cortisol and testosterone. In PCT, we are trying to achieve equilibrium of the HPTA, getting FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone) back to normal. Keeping our hard earned gains is obviously our first priority. I hope this post helps out, as i wrote it for beginners who are having a hard time searching through the massive amount of info... this thread will be updated as often as i learn something new... enjoy!

    Hope this helps Luch
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    "I got a bit of gyno returning from a previous cycle. Ive ordered some letro. What should i dose it at, then leading into my pct what should i dose my nolva,Tribulus Terrestris, and 6 oxo?"What was your previous cycle or cycles?
    i believe tren ph's (your cycle) are progestins though not real tren.
    From what i can tell reaserch sugest that these compounds make u more suceptible (primed receptors) for gyno. This may also explain rebound type gyno, due to receptors being so sensative, making the next progestin run a higher gyno risk. Large doses of vitamin B6 has been shown to lower prolactin and would also help prevent or reduce gyno.
    Now you may need a estrogen/progesterone blocker as mention earlier.
    i would run letro 1.5-2.5 depending severity and your libido will be tanked. Watch out for estro rebound with the lethro. cel's topical formastane has been reported to reduce or remove mild gyno
    For a serm either of these that you can get ur hands on
    clomid or
    Fareston (Toremifene Citrate): This is a second generation SERM. Approved for use in 1997. Chemically very similar to Nolva and Clomid, it is less powerful mg for mg. Fareston may have a stronger posotive effect on your cholesterol levels. For those who find this an important issue, this is a drug of choice. Used every day at around 60mg.

    Evista (raloxifene): A newer SERM, Evista is shown to be a blocker in breast tissue, but acts as a receptor agonist in bone tissue (unlike Nolvadex). This action promotes bone density. Taken at about 60mg a day. Evista may prove to be very beneficial, as it also helps cholesterol levels (like Nolvadex). Evista is supposed to have a more powerful gyno blocking effect than Nolvadex.
    all so i would run PP test recovery stack in pct as well

    Hope someone with more exp like Dr.d would chime in
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    ah nice, thank you. Ive decided to drop the tren, because i cant afford the right supplements and i caught it early so its not bad at all. That said, im continuing the epi, and winabol, along with the clen and keto. Ive got nolva in hand along with the rest of my pct supps. So im really just looking foreword to leaning out and just get ripped, not so worried about size. I can see affects of clen after only 3 days. Im trying to come out of this lookin like leonitas(300)!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLuch View Post
    ah nice, thank you. Ive decided to drop the tren, because i cant afford the right supplements and i caught it early so its not bad at all. That said, im continuing the epi, and winabol, along with the clen and keto. Ive got nolva in hand along with the rest of my pct supps. So im really just looking foreword to leaning out and just get ripped, not so worried about size. I can see affects of clen after only 3 days. Im trying to come out of this lookin like leonitas(300)!!!!!
    Cool! lol. I would allways from now on just run dry non progestenic compounds.
    Then clen is dose and tolerance dependant yrmv. You want get ripped in 3 days but on anything lol.
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    Ya Im an extremely impatient person. But im on the right road so, and hopefully the epi will reduce some of this preexisting gyno. But now I have a brand new bottle of letro and im not going to use it, because of shutdown, and i dont need anymore problems.
  

  
 

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