NOT YOUR GRANDMA'S RECOMP...AX, iforce, Scivation, and Intermittent fasting

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Arrow NOT YOUR GRANDMA'S RECOMP...AX, iforce, Scivation, and Intermittent fasting


    In my journey to build a better physique, I have decided to log the next 60 days using a 16/8 Intermittent fasting protocol coupled with the following supplements:

    Highlighted supplements:

    -Anabolic Xtreme's Slim Xtreme
    -Anabolic Xtreme's Lean FX
    -iforce's Reversitol
    -Scivation's Xtend

    Other supplements:

    -NP Creatine Monohydrate
    -NP Beta Alanine
    -NP Citrulline Malate
    -NP Taurine
    -NP 1,3 Dimethylamylamine
    -Primaforce Caffeine
    -Bulk Glucuronolactone
    -NP Chocomine
    -NP GMS
    -Bulk Cordyceps
    -Now Adam multi
    *The majority of which are consumed as a pre-workout drink mix.*
    (protein/fats/foods are not listed and not always consistant in brand or type)

    Goal/Purpose
    The primary goal in this period is fat loss. I'm going for magazine ad type dramatic results in body composition changes. Effort will be made to build muscle, but the focus in the next 60 days will be on acheiving a much lower bf%.
    Diet
    I will be using an intermittent fasting (which I will refer to as "IF") protocol with a 16hr. fast and 8hr eating period each day. The fast will end each day at 1500, and begin no later than 2300. Allthough the 8hr. window will end at 2300, I may at times eat my last meal (and sometimes go to sleep)well before then. I will post more on IF concerning details/theory/benefits later...
    Supplementation
    Xtend will be used throughout the fasting period in attempt to minimize muscle catabolism during the day.
    Slim Xtreme will be dosed 2/day on off days, and 1/day on workout days, taken @ 08:00 Lean FX will be dosed 3/day @ 06:30, 12:00, & 16:00 on off days, and
    @0630, pre workout, and post workout on workout days.
    Reversitol will be dosed 2/day @15:00 and 23:00
    *These are my "highlighted supplements" due to their intended focus on fat loss*
    Training
    I don't do focused training splits. I train my entire upper body 3 times/week, and my lower body 2 times/week. I do core work mostly during leg days, but I will add some in on upper body days if time and condition allow. I don't stick to specific days either, I just do an EOD alternation and take a day off when I feel fatigued.

    Background
    Ok guys, this is my first log. I always said I'd never do one, but due to the interest in IF, and the percieved effectiveness of my current supplement stack, I'm going to give it a shot, so bear with me. Apologies in advance if the quality dips below par. No refunds!

    I had a descent physique about 2 years ago. I set a PR on bench press of 275X7@160lbs before tearing my RC to the point of complete debilitation. I couldn't lift for months, and even when I got back into the weight room, I couldn't lift heavy and I completely lost motivation. My diet went out the window, but I started putting more energy into running and put weight training on the back burner. Then I got married...and stopped finding time to run. So after a long time off, I hit ~190 lbs (lost alot of lbm, too) before returning to the weightroom and shaping my diet back up.
    In the first 2 months, I went from 190 to (as of last Tuesday) 168. I have gained strength and about an inch on my arms in this time as well. I started out with conventional eating of 6-7 meals a day before switching to IF, which is quite amazing in terms of effectiveness. I want to get down to 152 in the next 60 days. If the aesthetic results I seek are reached prior to that weight, that's fine, but for now it's a number with a bull's eye on it.

    I've had some help with IF from Swedish fitness champ Seth Ronland. His page can be found at Seth Ronland . nu , but the majority of it is in Swedish. There is also some information regarding IF at Leangains - Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss for anyone who may be interested.

  2. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    ...
  3. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Day 1

    Today was an off day, so no workout, but WOW! What a stack...

    Afew thoughts on SX and the SX/LFX/Rev combo...

    I was actually starting to convince myself that maybe I just had a few really good days when I took my sample pack, and maybe SX wasn't really all that different than all the other fatburner type pills.

    Well, I started my SX+Lean FX+Reversitol stack today, and Holy Sh*t! I took 2 SX and 3 LeanFX throughout the day. I can't believe how great I felt today. I had no hunger, or thoughts about eating before 3:00pm. And although that's why I bought SX, that was not the most impressive thing about the stack!
    I felt on top of the world today! I felt confident, happy, and I just felt like kicking a$$ all day. The "alpha male" feeling that is promised by so many test boosters, AI's, ect. was 10X what I've ever felt from a testbooster, or any supplement, for that matter.

    It is late tonight and I spent most of my time typing the intro to this log so I'm not going to spend too much time on day one specifics, but I will post more this weekend.

    -Keith
    •   
       

  4. Registered User
    theshaman's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  189 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    In the Jungle
    Age
    28
    Posts
    260
    Rep Power
    215

    Awesome man! I will be following! I know you are going to do well.

    D
  5. NutraPlanet NinjaMonkey Rep
    Board Sponsor
    Steveoph's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,524
    Rep Power
    41243

    Good luck with it; you might want to tighten the eating window down even more . I like the idea behind IF.
  6. Registered User
    socal2ks's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  206 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    86
    Rep Power
    128

    Subbed!

    Ive got all of these coming, minus the Reversitol.
  7. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Urban Monk's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  180 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,459
    Rep Power
    14382

    Are you using the Lean Gains approach?
  8. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    Are you using the Lean Gains approach?
    Very similar. I ended up with the same basic principles, although I got my plan from the aforementioned Mr. Ronland.
  9. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Intermittent fasting

    IF is a somewhat controversial dieting method. This is mostly due to the belief of muscle catabolism during fasting, and the common perception of the body going into "shutdown mode" when not fed every 2-3 hours, thus halting fat loss.

    First, let me address the concern of "shutdown mode". While eating does cause a small metabolic response, the idea of losing body fat being dependent on eating every 2-3 hours is quite nieve. Fat loss doesn't stop when we stop eating food. The body is simply not that efficient. In fact, when we stop listening blindly to this common belief, it becomes common sense that a fat loss plan would thrive in a fasted environment, not come to a screaching halt. After all, that's why fat is stored in the body in the first place, to be used as fuel when the body lacks external nourishment.

    Muscle catabolism is a fear held by every bodybuilder. But the minimal amount of catabolism that occurs during a 16 hour fast is nothing like what many would expect. In fact, catabolism is actualy OVERcompenstaed for during the feeding period. I consume Xtend with Beta Alanine throughout the fasting period to keep a constant supply of aminos in the bloodstream, thus combating any rise in cortisol. (Carbohydrates also combat cortisol, so don't hybrid this with a low-carb diet.) Research has shown that muscles begin to poorly absorb leucine during a fast, or under a calorie deficit. However, leucine also prevents muscle tissue from being broken down during this period, so it's intended effects are mostly anti-catabolic during this period, unlike when used post workout during the feeding period, as leucine will provide a rather anabolic respose.
    It has been concluded that leucine has a (very small) effect on insulin when used alone, but a profound effect when used with cabohydrates. Leucine+glucose yeilds a 70% greater increase in insulin release than glucose alone(without effecting blood sugar levels!). For those of you that may not know, insulin is more anabolic than testosterone. This, coupled with an increase in insulin sensitivity brought on by the fast makes for a very favorable environment for building/repairing muscle during the feeding period.

    When using a traditional diet consisting of small meals spread out every 2-3 hours, the body is constantly in a state of under-nourishment. There is never a time when your body is not scavenging for extra fuel. As evident in traditional cutting diets, this is not a favorable state to build muscle.

    During a bulk, the body is supplied with extra nourishment, which leads to more muscle building ability, but more fat storage as well.

    IF is the best of both worlds. It amounts to 16 hours of fat burning, and 8 hours of muscle building. There are also other benefits of IF, like appetite control and a feeling of fullfillment that you cant get when eating tiny meals. I also enjoy the flexability that comes along with IF. While keeping a clean diet is important, I don't feel like I threw my diet down the drain if I eat a few pieces of pizza, or spaggetti, lasagna... (whatever your fix may be) once a week. The fasting period gives you the benefit of consuming a lot more calories in the evening hours, when they are most beneficial.

    I chose IF because...

    -more efficiant recomping capabilities
    -easier to stick to. No need to fight night-time cravings.
    -Stable blood sugar levels.
    *I have a history of hypoglycemia when my diet is not spot on, especially towards the end of my workouts. None with IF. I have taken many measurments while fasting and with an optimal range of 90-120, my blood sugar has never dropped below 92 and never exceeded 119*
    -Better social/professional life. I get my work done at work, and eat most of my meals in my home. I also have the freedom/caloric room to go out to dinner without ruining my diet.
    -Fasting has the ability to rid the body of toxins. Since starting IF, my joints have felt remarkably better, and a recent patch of psoriosis on my elbow (very dry, painful patch of skin) started healing as soon as I began IF.

    I didn't really get too detailed here regarding diet specifics/food types but it's a huge post already. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I am by no means an expert on IF, but I will try my best to help.
  10. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Urban Monk's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  180 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,459
    Rep Power
    14382

    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    I consume Xtend with Beta Alanine throughout the fasting period to keep a constant supply of aminos in the bloodstream, thus combating any rise in cortisol. (Carbohydrates also combat cortisol, so don't hybrid this with a low-carb diet.)
    Just FYI, I would not do this. Xtend does cause a small to moderate bump in Insulin. This normally would not be an issue, but the entire point of IF is to eliminate insulin from the bloodstream, thus allowing glucagon to be secreted. The presence of glucagon initiates the liver to convert stored glycogen into glucose and release it into the bloodstream. In plain english, this is the optimal time for your body to release stored fat.

    Additionally, this also regulates/potentates insulin response. This makes you more metabolically efficient in processing/digesting nutrients.

    Good luck otherwise!
  11. NutraPlanet NinjaMonkey Rep
    Board Sponsor
    Steveoph's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,524
    Rep Power
    41243

    Judging by the timing, your noon reversitol will be empty stomach. You might want to move it to your 1st meal; it has ATD in it, and is better taken with fats.
  12. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    babywifey's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  170 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    24
    Posts
    2,487
    Rep Power
    20547

    I actually am going to be trying out IF this week as well. I want to see if I will get any good, notable fat loss results on it. How many calories are you consuming on lifting days and off days?
  13. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Day 4 was an off day, so I'm going to post info on yesterday. Sometimes the weekend can throw things off a bit, like yesterday I had a 3 yr old's birthday party to go to, so I didn't have the food options I would normaly have when it came time to eat.

    Day 3

    07:00-15:00:
    Took (1) SX
    (1) LFX
    (1) Reversitol
    (4) Scoops Xtend+BA

    15:00: Was at a bowling alley, with no option to eat the fruit/oats/protein combo I would normaly consume. Ate 2 small pieces of pizza to break the fasting period.
    16:30: Took 2nd LFX.
    Ate (1) large apple, and oatmeal with (1) scoop whey protein and (2) packets Truvia (sweetener).
    Consumed pre workout drink composed of: Creatine, Beta Alanine, Citrulline Malate, Taurine, Glucuronalactone, 1,3 Dime, Caffeine, and Xtend.
    17:00: Upper body workout composed of supersets for Chest/Back, Shoulders/Traps, Bis/Tris, Front/Rear delts. I will post more specifics later on, for now just trying to keep up on the log with the time I have.
    18:00: Consumed a Protein shake+30g oats+skim milk. Took 3rd LFX.
    20:00: Kids were at their cousin's for the night so I took the wife out for dinner. Had a 6oz. fillet mignon, a naked sweet potato, and diet coke.
    22:00: Had (1) scoop whey protein+(1) TBSP modified (added egg protein+flax) nat. peanut butter before taking 2nd Reversitol and going to bed.

    Thoughts/notes:
    Total calories estimated at 1735 for the day. (Estimated because I'm going off of nutritional info regarding Logan's Roadhouse that I have no way of validating.) Up until this point I have been estimating calories in my head rather than recording everything specificly. In an average day, I would have ommited the pizza, and had just protein+oats and fruit ~2hrs. before my workout. Also, I would have consumed something like chicken and rice, or eggs/cheese/canadian bacon on a whole wheat muffin, for example, instead of the fillet at the local steakhouse.
    The effects of my current supplement stack are the same as noted earlier, other than I only take (1) SX on days I work out, so the effect just isn't quite as strong. The effects of stimulants are actualy enhanced during fasting, and there are plenty in my pre-workout mix. Consuming this with (2) SX in the same day is just too much, and interferes with sleep.
    As far as results go, I'm getting more and more people commenting on my body change. Just in the last few days, 3 different people have made obsevations about my increase in muscle size. Those are the best positive comments you can get when losing weight! NO ONE has told me I look "skinnier" or "smaller".
  14. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    Just FYI, I would not do this. Xtend does cause a small to moderate bump in Insulin. This normally would not be an issue, but the entire point of IF is to eliminate insulin from the bloodstream, thus allowing glucagon to be secreted. The presence of glucagon initiates the liver to convert stored glycogen into glucose and release it into the bloodstream. In plain english, this is the optimal time for your body to release stored fat.

    Additionally, this also regulates/potentates insulin response. This makes you more metabolically efficient in processing/digesting nutrients.

    Good luck otherwise!
    Thanks Urban. Glad to have you here!
    The info I have found regarding leucine shows almost no insulin response from leucine alone in a fasted state, and absolutely no raise in gluclose levels. Another study showed no measurable change in insulin levels. Do you have any studies that show a significant rise? I don't know that I would eliminate Xtend if you did, but I would definitley be interested in seeing them.
    Also, the purpose of IF, for me at least, goes much further than eliminating insulin. The advantages I mentioned in my IF post are quite vast, and the results I am getting are even better than I expected. The diet protocol I based this off of specifically includes the use of Xtend, Purple Wrath, or other BCAA drink, and has been very effective for many people, including fitness and bodybuilding competitors as well as average everyday people.
    IMO, the benefits of leucine in regards to it's anti-catabolic properties and it's anabolic potential are quite pronounced in this kind of diet. While leucine could have a negative effect in one manner (if it were to cause a notable rise in insulin), I think the other benefits it brings to the table far outweigh the negatives.

    Thanks for bringing good info to the table. I'd be glad to have you stick around and give me some feedback as things move along.
  15. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    Judging by the timing, your noon reversitol will be empty stomach. You might want to move it to your 1st meal; it has ATD in it, and is better taken with fats.
    Noted. Will take Reversitol @ 15:00 instead of 12:00.
    Glad to have you here Steve, and I'm sure my 3 yr old daughter will be too, as you seem to be her favorite AM member...Although I believe she thinks you are really a lime-headed cat that has learned to post on the internet.
  16. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by babywifey View Post
    I actually am going to be trying out IF this week as well. I want to see if I will get any good, notable fat loss results on it. How many calories are you consuming on lifting days and off days?
    Glad to have you here Babywifey!

    You may get a noticable boost in weight loss the first week of IF. I had been losing weight before IF and already went through the tremendous first week miracle of weight loss. However, I still went from a ~2lb average to losing 4.6lbs the first week of IF. My waist measured 0.5" smaller 3 days after starting this plan. The second week my weight loss was more normal @1.8lbs, but I am getting lean enough now that 1.8lbs is much more impressive than it was a month ago.
    As far as calories, I haven't been completely diligent about recording calories, but my diet is consistant enough that it's pretty easy to estimate. I have been staying around 1500-1800, with the high side being on workout days. Everything I eat now is completely intentional, unlike conventional dieting when I may eat an unplanned snack here and there to hold off a craving, so the calories don't really get away from me anymore.

    Thanks for hanging around and good luck with your diet!
  17. Registered User
    BB12's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  182 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Some Crazy Place in the Mid-West
    Posts
    2,056
    Rep Power
    7668

    Very nice stack!

    Have to say when I saw that you took 2 of the SX, I was shocked. I seriously take one in the morning at 6:30 am and maybe a coffee around 2:00pm and I'll be up till atleast 1:00 am.

    Glad you like it!
    Formutech Nutrition | Online/Social Media Rep
    Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, & Instagram for more promos!
    www.formutechnutrition.com |www.facebook.com/fnutrition
  18. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Urban Monk's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  180 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,459
    Rep Power
    14382

    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    Thanks Urban. Glad to have you here!
    The info I have found regarding leucine shows almost no insulin response from leucine alone in a fasted state, and absolutely no raise in gluclose levels. Another study showed no measurable change in insulin levels. Do you have any studies that show a significant rise? I don't know that I would eliminate Xtend if you did, but I would definitley be interested in seeing them.
    Also, the purpose of IF, for me at least, goes much further than eliminating insulin. The advantages I mentioned in my IF post are quite vast, and the results I am getting are even better than I expected. The diet protocol I based this off of specifically includes the use of Xtend, Purple Wrath, or other BCAA drink, and has been very effective for many people, including fitness and bodybuilding competitors as well as average everyday people.
    IMO, the benefits of leucine in regards to it's anti-catabolic properties and it's anabolic potential are quite pronounced in this kind of diet. While leucine could have a negative effect in one manner (if it were to cause a notable rise in insulin), I think the other benefits it brings to the table far outweigh the negatives.

    Thanks for bringing good info to the table. I'd be glad to have you stick around and give me some feedback as things move along.
    I'm just going off what was told to me by Marc, the owner of Scivation. I'm a big fan of IF, and I've found studies/research that shows Glucagon and GH secretion to be limited in the presence of insulin.

    Looking at evolutionary biology, this makes sense as our ancestors didn't have anything resembling free-form amino acids to keep them anabolic :-).
  19. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post
    I'm just going off what was told to me by Marc, the owner of Scivation. I'm a big fan of IF, and I've found studies/research that shows Glucagon and GH secretion to be limited in the presence of insulin.

    Looking at evolutionary biology, this makes sense as our ancestors didn't have anything resembling free-form amino acids to keep them anabolic :-).
    I definitely respect your position Urban. I appreciate the input and definitely think ANY information regarding IF is quite valuable here, as IF is far from the common approach used or documented on this site as well as others.
    This thread could be a good reference to those in search of an alternative to traditional dieting. Maybe even making a separate thread in regards to IF where those interested can discuss ideas, studies, and experiences might be in order. I might get something going after this log if no one else has.
  20. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    A couple studies regarding leucine supplementation during weight loss:

    1: Nutrition. 2006 May;22(5):520-7.Click here to read Links
    Effects of leucine supplementation on the body composition and protein status of rats submitted to food restriction.
    Donato J Jr, Pedrosa RG, Cruzat VF, Pires IS, Tirapegui J.

    Department of Food Science and Experimental Nutrition, Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of So Paulo, So Paulo, Brazil.

    OBJECTIVE: Acute administration of leucine has been shown to stimulate certain protein synthesis related anabolic processes. However, the effect of chronic leucine administration in a catabolic situation caused by food restriction (FR) has not been established. We therefore evaluated the effect of chronic leucine supplementation on the body composition and some indicators of protein nutritional status of rats submitted to FR. METHODS: Adult male Wistar rats were submitted to 50% FR for 6 weeks. The control group received the AIN-93M diet and the leucine group received the same diet supplemented with 5.91 g L-leucine/kg ration. We then determined carcass chemical composition, serum leptin, albumin and total protein concentrations, and protein, DNA and RNA concentrations in gastrocnemius muscle and liver. RESULTS: No difference in final body weight was observed between groups. However, the leucine group presented a lower amount of body fat (P < 0.05). Leptin concentration showed a directly proportional correlation with the amount of body fat (r = 0.88, P < 0.05), but no significant difference in serum leptin concentration was observed between groups (P = 0.08). Regarding protein nutritional status, liver protein concentration was higher in the leucine group (P < 0.05). In the gastrocnemius muscle, a higher RNA concentration (P < 0.05) and a tendency towards higher DNA concentration (P = 0.06) were observed in the leucine group. CONCLUSION: The results indicate that low-dose leucine supplementation increases body fat loss and improves liver protein status and the capacity of muscle protein synthesis in rats submitted to FR.

    -------------------------------------------------
    1: J Med Food. 2008 Dec;11(4):606-9. Links

    Leucine for retention of lean mass on a hypocaloric diet.

    Jitomir J, Willoughby DS.
    Exercise and Biochemical Nutrition Laboratory, Department of Health, Human Performance, Recreation, Baylor University, Waco, Texas 76798-7313, USA. Jean_Jitomir@baylor.edu
    As obesity rates continue to climb, there is a pressing need for novel weight loss techniques. However, the energy-restricted diets recommended for weight loss typically result in significant amounts of lean tissue loss, in addition to the desired body fat loss. Leucine, a supported anticatabolic agent, has shown promise in research at many levels. First, leucine is known to stimulate the mammalian target of rapamycin pathway, which initiates translation and protein synthesis in muscle cells. Furthermore, leucine may help to regulate blood glucose levels by promoting gluconeogenesis. Finally, several recent studies provide evidence that leucine aids in the retention of lean mass in a hypocaloric state. The aim of this paper is to review relevant leucine research in the three areas described and assess its potential as supplement for obese individuals.
  21. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Biceps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Age
    35
    Posts
    171
    Rep Power
    177

    Hi Redemption79!

    Thanks for the link to your log and I will be following! Love the detail

    One comment for you and I think you are noticing this already. On the days you take 2 Slim Xtreme, take them both at the same time. If you split up the doses and do one in the morning and one at 12pm, you're going to be up all night.

    Slim Xtreme really works the best when you take it on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. Wait about 30 minutes to eat. Even if you need to workout later in the day, say 8 hours after your Slim Xtreme dose, you'll still have a ton of great energy to carry you through your workout.

    Also, and this goes for even 1 cap of Slim Xtreme, try to limit your caffeine intake from other sources. Caffeine can enhance the effects of Slim Xtreme...sort of the same principle behind our SX Boosters, although the boosters provide a much cleaner feeling of energy.
  22. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    And in regards to glucagon:

    Increased secretion of glucagon is caused by:

    * Decreased plasma glucose
    * Increased catecholamines - norepinephrine and epinephrine
    * Increased plasma amino acids (to protect from hypoglycemia if an all protein meal is consumed)
    * Sympathetic nervous system
    * Acetylcholine
    * Cholecystokinin

    Decreased secretion of glucagon (inhibition) is caused by:

    * Somatostatin
    * Insulin
    * Increased free fatty acids and ketoacids into the blood
    * Increased urea production

    ................
    While insulin can decrease secretion, a significant rise in insulin from leucine has yet to be found without additional administration of an energy source.
    Catecholamines, which rise during a fast, are a contributor in glucagon release, and as you see, increased plasma amino acids also have a positive effect. It would be interesting to get the opinions of people like Lobliner, or Layne Norton on this matter.
  23. Registered User
    frizzlerock's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  178 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    iowa
    Age
    40
    Posts
    267
    Rep Power
    237

    subbd
  24. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by Biceps View Post
    Hi Redemption79!



    One comment for you and I think you are noticing this already. On the days you take 2 Slim Xtreme, take them both at the same time. If you split up the doses and do one in the morning and one at 12pm, you're going to be up all night.
    Good to have you here Biceps!

    This is true! Check the time (1:15am) of my first post. Staggered doses of SX plus the stims in my pre-workout drink kept me up all night. I found if I tone down the pre workout stims and take (1) SX in the morning, I can still get to bed at night. Fasting releases more catecholamines into the bloodstream, which can intensify the effect of products like SX and other stims, and SX seems to magnify the effect of any stim taken in the same day. This made for a wild ride the first time I consumed my "normal" pre workout mix!
  25. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by frizzlerock View Post
    subbd
    Welcome Frizzle!
  26. Registered User
    theshaman's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  189 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    In the Jungle
    Age
    28
    Posts
    260
    Rep Power
    215

    Wow gone for a few hours and look at all of this detail! Very cool!
  27. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    Biceps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington
    Age
    35
    Posts
    171
    Rep Power
    177

    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    Good to have you here Biceps!

    This is true! Check the time (1:15am) of my first post. Staggered doses of SX plus the stims in my pre-workout drink kept me up all night. I found if I tone down the pre workout stims and take (1) SX in the morning, I can still get to bed at night. Fasting releases more catecholamines into the bloodstream, which can intensify the effect of products like SX and other stims, and SX seems to magnify the effect of any stim taken in the same day. This made for a wild ride the first time I consumed my "normal" pre workout mix!
    Hahaha!

    New little emoticon! Just couldn't resist using it!! LOL!

    Yeah, I was up until 4am one night when testing this formula prior to release! Great stuff. I find that a single SX Booster pre-workout is all I need if I'm hitting the gym later in the evening!

    Love the detail and knowledge you're bringing to your log! Very impressed, and I think that everyone who follows your log will be treated to a lot of fantastic information
  28. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Urban Monk's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  180 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,459
    Rep Power
    14382

    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    And in regards to glucagon:

    Increased secretion of glucagon is caused by:

    * Decreased plasma glucose
    * Increased catecholamines - norepinephrine and epinephrine
    * Increased plasma amino acids (to protect from hypoglycemia if an all protein meal is consumed)
    * Sympathetic nervous system
    * Acetylcholine
    * Cholecystokinin

    Decreased secretion of glucagon (inhibition) is caused by:

    * Somatostatin
    * Insulin
    * Increased free fatty acids and ketoacids into the blood
    * Increased urea production

    ................
    While insulin can decrease secretion, a significant rise in insulin from leucine has yet to be found without additional administration of an energy source.
    Catecholamines, which rise during a fast, are a contributor in glucagon release, and as you see, increased plasma amino acids also have a positive effect. It would be interesting to get the opinions of people like Lobliner, or Layne Norton on this matter.
    Good points, but my information was in relation to the Xtend product. I'm inclined to believe Layne/Lobliner when they say they have measured insulin response from their product.

    Increased amino acid concentration in plasma is actually a byproduct of straight fasting. You don't need external aminos to do this.

    Additionally, I emailed Brad Pilon, author of Eat Stop Eat who is one of the foremost experts on IF. He had this to say:

    I see no benefit in adding BCAAs into the fasting period.

    Since you do not lose muscle during a 24 hour fast, you do not need the BCAAs to prevent muscle loss. And there is no evidence to suggest you will gain muscle by adding in BCAAs.

    I have experimented with BCAAs (10 grams every 2 hours) and EAAs (10 grams every 2 hours) as well as Leucine (7 grams every 2 hours) and saw absolutely no benefits after 6 weeks.
  29. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    babywifey's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  170 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    24
    Posts
    2,487
    Rep Power
    20547

    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    Glad to have you here Babywifey!

    You may get a noticable boost in weight loss the first week of IF. I had been losing weight before IF and already went through the tremendous first week miracle of weight loss. However, I still went from a ~2lb average to losing 4.6lbs the first week of IF. My waist measured 0.5" smaller 3 days after starting this plan. The second week my weight loss was more normal @1.8lbs, but I am getting lean enough now that 1.8lbs is much more impressive than it was a month ago.
    As far as calories, I haven't been completely diligent about recording calories, but my diet is consistant enough that it's pretty easy to estimate. I have been staying around 1500-1800, with the high side being on workout days. Everything I eat now is completely intentional, unlike conventional dieting when I may eat an unplanned snack here and there to hold off a craving, so the calories don't really get away from me anymore.

    Thanks for hanging around and good luck with your diet!
    1500-1800 cals? Seems pretty low to me. I'm doing around 2800 on lifting days and 1700 on off days. My goal is to recomp rather than just cut though. I'm in my first week right now. Depending on how it goes, I may lower my calorie intake. I tend to play things by ear, and read my body's signals.
  30. Registered User
    frizzlerock's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  178 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    iowa
    Age
    40
    Posts
    267
    Rep Power
    237

    Thumbs up


    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    Welcome Frizzle!
    thx. im very interested to see how this fasted stuff works. im thinking about trying this out. would be nice to eat clean or even a little dirty for 8 hrs. 1-2pm to 9-10pm, if im thinking this through right. i never have been a big eatter in the mornings. to much to do with daughter & work.

    SX is the BOMB!!! im also taking with Lean FX & CLA. that Rev was too pricey for me right now. i got some Yohimbine HCL too. but that was too much stim with just 1 SX for me. today i took just 1 SX & no Yo HCL & no problems. felt great all day. but didnt kill my appetite the way 3 pills did. i may bump up to 2 next week. anywhoo good luck!!
  31. Registered User
    frizzlerock's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  178 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    iowa
    Age
    40
    Posts
    267
    Rep Power
    237

    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    Good to have you here Biceps!

    This is true! Check the time (1:15am) of my first post. Staggered doses of SX plus the stims in my pre-workout drink kept me up all night. I found if I tone down the pre workout stims and take (1) SX in the morning, I can still get to bed at night. Fasting releases more catecholamines into the bloodstream, which can intensify the effect of products like SX and other stims, and SX seems to magnify the effect of any stim taken in the same day. This made for a wild ride the first time I consumed my "normal" pre workout mix!
    i took all 3 of the samples & "slept" 4 hours in 30+ hrs. it was the wierdest feeling ever. i felt like i could just keep going. but i dont recomend it. my
    BP & heart rate were high as hell. then saturday, 7am i took 1 SX 1 yohimbine hcl in the morning. took my prework out drink(has caff in it) around noon then worked out. i didnt go to sleep till 6am.
    so im dropping the yo hcl & the pre w/o drink for now.
  32. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Day 5

    Did legs and core today. I'm anxious to get to the point where I can add more volume as I just started training legs recently. For now I'm just doing
    3 sets of 10 DB squats,
    2 sets 10 of DB lunges, and
    3 sets of 10 single leg calf raises.
    I would like to get all of those up to 4 sets in the next few weeks.
    For core I do 3 circuits of weighted crunches, leg raises, side crunches, and bridges.
    Legs were always difficult for me to train in the past because my running schedule would interfere. DOMS haunts me for days when I train legs, and I couldn't afford to miss my running workouts and still make the goals I had set (I was running in a lot of races back then). Now I am choosing to make training legs a priority ...and I hope it pays off heavily!

    Diet
    I will post my diet info today, but I'm not going to post my diet every time I update after this, since it stays quite similar and would become quite redundant. I will, however, post if there is a major change in eating habits or type/quality of food.

    15:00 (2)clementines, 30g oatmeal, 1 scoop whey protein powder.
    17:00 Leg/core workout
    18:00 Shake with (1) scoop whey, 40g oats, and (1) cup skim milk.
    6oz. chicken breast, one cup brown rice.
    20:00 Whole wheat eng. muffin, (2) eggs, (2) slices turkey bacon, 1oz. cheddar cheese.
    22:00 One scoop whey with (2)TBSP mod. nat. PB

    Total calories: 1720

    Thoughts/Notes:

    Good workout. I am supplementing the same with the exception of the noon Reversitol dosing (moved to 3pm). It's a good thing someone other than me was paying attention!

    I'm a guy that is cursed with the combo of a love to eat good food, and..well, lets say an "efficient" body. It's quite an odd feeling when you sit down with a full stomach, almost feeling guilty for the feeling of satiety you have, and add up your calories only to dicover you've consumed only 1000 thus far and need to get your but over to the fridge. For anyone who has trouble keeping their calorie count low, and never feeling fullfilled, I say give this plan a try. It's amazing how full and satisfied you feel in contrast to traditional dieting. SX keeps me content during the day, and the feeding period keeps me and my muscles smiling at night.

    Tomorrow is Tuesday, weigh in day. I'm not sure what the scale will reveal this week. I don't really feel like I've lost weight this week, but we'll see. I've hardened up a bit, for sure. While I'm still carrying a bit in the waistline, my chest is more solid than it was a week ago, And I am starting to see striations on my shoulders when lifting. I'm not going to assume anything until I weigh in tomorrow and the next week, but if the weight loss does start slowing, I may start putting more of an emphasis on measurments.
  33. NutraPlanet NinjaMonkey Rep
    Board Sponsor
    Steveoph's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"   lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    12,524
    Rep Power
    41243

    Good luck with the weigh in tomorrow Usually you can see the changes in the mirror/how you feel first. Clarification, the 1800 meal, you have a shake and solid foods at the same time? Also if you aren't getting many veggies, you might want to consider a Greens product.
  34. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by babywifey View Post
    1500-1800 cals? Seems pretty low to me. I'm doing around 2800 on lifting days and 1700 on off days. My goal is to recomp rather than just cut though. I'm in my first week right now. Depending on how it goes, I may lower my calorie intake. I tend to play things by ear, and read my body's signals.
    Yeah, seems low to most. I would much rather be one of those ectos that complain about eating! I did a good recomp a few years ago with a similar intake, but in a traditional diet. Funny how I seemed starved then, and almost gluttonous now.
    I also adjust intake based and results, and feedback from my body. I am adding more and more weight and volume to my workouts, so I may end up raising that number a bit. If I start feeling weak in the gym, I will up the cals. In the event that the fat loss comes to a halt I will lower my net cals by training more. I have to be more and more careful about not going to low as my bf% gets lower. There's a pretty good margin of error there when you have 30 pounds to lose though.
    I've also considered adding something like vitargo post workout. That would throw a few extra calories into the mix if needed.

    Good luck on your recomp! Are you doing a log?
  35. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by frizzlerock View Post
    thx. im very interested to see how this fasted stuff works. im thinking about trying this out. would be nice to eat clean or even a little dirty for 8 hrs. 1-2pm to 9-10pm, if im thinking this through right. i never have been a big eatter in the mornings. to much to do with daughter & work.

    SX is the BOMB!!! im also taking with Lean FX & CLA. that Rev was too pricey for me right now. i got some Yohimbine HCL too. but that was too much stim with just 1 SX for me. today i took just 1 SX & no Yo HCL & no problems. felt great all day. but didnt kill my appetite the way 3 pills did. i may bump up to 2 next week. anywhoo good luck!!

    The Reversitol is definitley not a neccesity, just something I had to throw into the mix. As far as the SX+FX goes, fasting will actually enhance the effects. So one SX may be good enough after the first few days.
    If you decide to try IF, here are a few things that may help:
    *Eating clean is still important, so don't get too carried away. For me it's easier. Avoiding the cravings associated with eating tiny frequent seems to make clean eating just as satisfying.
    *I like the idea of starting your fast when you go to bed. Even if you don't eat right up until then, it makes for a decent portion of fasting while awake, which is a good thing.
    *Try and eat your first small meal (starting with some fruit) pre workout and the rest in the hours post workout. Have some protein and fats last thing to help get you through the fast, and don't go too easy on carbs.
  36. Board Sponsor
    Board Sponsor
    babywifey's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  170 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    24
    Posts
    2,487
    Rep Power
    20547

    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    Yeah, seems low to most. I would much rather be one of those ectos that complain about eating! I did a good recomp a few years ago with a similar intake, but in a traditional diet. Funny how I seemed starved then, and almost gluttonous now.
    I also adjust intake based and results, and feedback from my body. I am adding more and more weight and volume to my workouts, so I may end up raising that number a bit. If I start feeling weak in the gym, I will up the cals. In the event that the fat loss comes to a halt I will lower my net cals by training more. I have to be more and more careful about not going to low as my bf% gets lower. There's a pretty good margin of error there when you have 30 pounds to lose though.
    I've also considered adding something like vitargo post workout. That would throw a few extra calories into the mix if needed.

    Good luck on your recomp! Are you doing a log?

    I am. Here is the link:

    Continuing My Fat-Loss Journey With...
  37. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    Good luck with the weigh in tomorrow Usually you can see the changes in the mirror/how you feel first. Clarification, the 1800 meal, you have a shake and solid foods at the same time? Also if you aren't getting many veggies, you might want to consider a Greens product.
    Shake immediatley post w/o. The solid food was within 10 minutes though. I try to keep most food on the back end of my workout, and this would be ideal, but sometimes i have a small meal right before workout. If my wife has dinner ready for me when I get home, I'm not going to tell her I can't eat it. I just keep it small and go on.

    Are you saying I need to eat my veggies, mom?
    You bring up a good point. My veggie intake is terrible as it is, and after reading your post I realized it's even worse now. Looking into a greens product will probably be the more realistic approach.
  38. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Monk View Post

    I emailed Brad Pilon, author of Eat Stop Eat who is one of the foremost experts on IF. He had this to say:
    I'm familiar with Pilon. I researched a lot of his work when considering IF. He's more of a proponent of 1 or 2 day fasts per week, but definitley on the forefront of the IF movement. I would be curious if he noticed any difference during his run of BCAAs. Obviously, if he didn't, that doesn't support one position more than another. Did he mention any results of weight gain or hindered weight loss?
    When looking at studies and/or anecdotal evidence (takes many to form any reasonable theory), they must support ALL of a proposed theory. Otherwise, either the theory, or the study has to be discarded.

    It seems the IF supporting community is split on BCAA use. Your points are absolutely valid, and reasonably stated. There are so many variables at play in regards to the potential positive/negative effects of BCAA use during fasting that some look at one half and base their opinion while others look at the other half and base theirs.

    I am using this protocol with the BCAAs because it has reaped positive benefits in many. I can find so much evidence to support it, (and very easily fall into making loose theories about how it could be beneficial) yet there is evidence worth looking at to support your position as well. Personally, I think there is still a lot to be learned here. And as IF grows, so will the information.
    For now I will continue with the Xtend during the fast, but if I come to a point where the fat loss stops, I may consider trying BCAA-free fasting.

    On a side note, do you have an opinion on choline supplementation?
  39. Registered User
    redemption79's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    michigan
    Age
    35
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    256

    Ok, this should put the hammer down on the leucine/insulin/glucagon debate. Anyone who is considering IF, or is interested in the effects of leucine on insulin and glucagon response please take the time to read this:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19013300

    Leucine, when ingested alone, increased the serum insulin area response modestly. However, it increased the insulin area response to glucose by an additional 66%; that is, it almost doubled the response. Ingested leucine stimulated an increase in glucagon. Ingested glucose decreased it. When ingested together, the net effect was essentially no change in glucagon area. In summary, leucine at a dose equivalent to that present in a high-protein meal, had little effect on serum glucose or insulin concentrations but did increase the glucagon concentration.
  40. Running with the Big Boys
    Board Sponsor
    Urban Monk's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  180 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,459
    Rep Power
    14382

    Quote Originally Posted by redemption79 View Post
    Ok, this should put the hammer down on the leucine/insulin/glucagon debate. Anyone who is considering IF, or is interested in the effects of leucine on insulin and glucagon response please take the time to read this:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19013300

    Leucine, when ingested alone, increased the serum insulin area response modestly. However, it increased the insulin area response to glucose by an additional 66%; that is, it almost doubled the response. Ingested leucine stimulated an increase in glucagon. Ingested glucose decreased it. When ingested together, the net effect was essentially no change in glucagon area. In summary, leucine at a dose equivalent to that present in a high-protein meal, had little effect on serum glucose or insulin concentrations but did increase the glucagon concentration.
    Interesting study. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you not taking Xtend (which is what I had been arguing against in your fasting periods) which is not just Leucine? You have 2 other BCAA's also, Glutamine, and vitamin B6. What is the glucagon promotional aspect of the formula you are using as a whole?
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Intermittent Fasting and PowerChews
    By Milas in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 05-08-2011, 10:24 PM
  2. Experiences with Intermittent Fasting
    By adnscmplx in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 70
    Last Post: 04-08-2011, 11:27 PM
  3. intermittent fasting
    By Shavani in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 02-09-2011, 09:47 PM
  4. Intermittent Fasting
    By trackstud100m in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 06-18-2009, 01:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in